I have been wondering for a while already about the usage of "specimen size"
to describe an orchid plant.

Is this merely a subjective description like "really impressive size" or are
there any rules of what would be considered specimen size and what would
not? Would this be something for which orchid judges at shows have criteria?
Or is this just a term used informally?

I know that there are some plants about which there is no doubt that they
are specimen size (for example: Al's Equestris Mom, the picture of which Al
posted on abpo a while ago). And then we can safely say for some plants that
they are not specimen size, for example nobody would call a white Phal
hybrid with a leave-span of 8inches specimen sized. But then there are
plants for which it is less obvious.

I would assume that any criteria would have to vary by orchid type, of
course. Being primarily a Phal person myself, I am interested in any ideas
of how to tell when a white Phal hybrid for example has reached specimen
size. If there are no "objective" criteria, when could one dare start
calling a Phal specimen sized without being ridiculed by other orchid
growers?

Thanks,
Joanna

I have been wondering for a while already about the usage of "specimen size"
to describe an orchid plant.

I remember a photo in an old AOS bulletin of a just awarded Miltonia hybrid
that had over 500 flowers and I think was in a 24 inch pot. It weighed over 100
pounds. I'd call that a specimen.

I think there are specific rules for awarding well grown plants. It used to be
a CCM or Certificate of Cultural Merit. I don't know the specifics but I'm sure
someone who is either a judge or student judge could provide the information.

TRAINMAN9 wrote:

I have been wondering for a while already about the usage of "specimen size"
to describe an orchid plant.



I remember a photo in an old AOS bulletin of a just awarded Miltonia hybrid
that had over 500 flowers and I think was in a 24 inch pot. It weighed over 100
pounds. I'd call that a specimen.

I think there are specific rules for awarding well grown plants. It used to be
a CCM or Certificate of Cultural Merit. I don't know the specifics but I'm sure
someone who is either a judge or student judge could provide the information.


I don't think there is a formal definition of 'specimen sized'
plants. In general, it is easier to determine for plants we know. A
specimen size phal might be small or large in leaf size, depending on
its parentage, but would likely to be judged by the number of
inflorescences and flowers. A standard white phal with 3 or 4 good
inflorescences is probably a specimen plant. We are frequently
confronted with plants which we know nothing about which we think _may
be_ specimen size. For example a Masdevallia species with 20 flowers.
Is this a specimen worthy of a CCM? Maybe... Maybe that species is a
weed and blooms like that regardless of where you put it or who grows
it. That is certainly a horticulturally desirable plant, but _not_ a
specimen quality plant. Perhaps you might need 200 flowers to get to
specimen quality.

The CCM, certificate of cultural merit, or CCE (cultural excellence-
a better award) is not given to the plant itself, actually, but to the
grower. I don't have my handbook with me, but I think it says something
about exceptionally well grown and well bloomed cultivars. We score
based on floriferousness, condition of the plant itself (leaves and
pseudobulbs), and the condition of the bloom (all flowers open
simultaneously with no damage - that is good). A CCM scores 80-89 pts
and a CCE 90-100 (out of 100). You may also receive a CCM/CCE on a
plant that has a previous award of any type, even another CCM. It is
what the plant is doing at the time that is important. Individual
flower quality is not particularly important, although consistency is
critical, and a pleasing flower doesn't hurt. Sometimes we give CCMs
and quality awards at the same judging (CCM/AOS, AM/AOS). Then the
exhibitor gets to pay twice!!! *grin*

Importantly, the award recognizes the skill of the grower. So, a
CCE vanda in upstate Michigan might be substantially smaller than a CCE
vanda in Miami. That isn't the point. It is the overall
'impressiveness" of the plant and blooming. If it is impossible to grow
in our area, and somebody has done an excellent job regardless, then
they are often rewarded for their skill. The 'Best of Show' plant often
receives a CCM. Sometimes little tiny pleurothallids receive CCMs -
they aren't big, but they can be hard to grow and a well grown one is
impressive. So, it is a function of a) what the plant type usually
does, b) what the particular plant is doing when it is exhibited, and c)
overall 'WOW' factor. I would say that the CCM and CCE awards are
among the hardest to learn for the student judge. You need to look at a
heck of a lot of plants before you can give a well informed opinion
about this kind of award. What looks amazing to a novice might just be
ho-hum to somebody who has seen a few hundred.

You can safely call your phal a specimen if you want, if it has
bloomed well for several consecutive years. Nobody will laugh at you.
They might snicker a bit if the leaves are nicked up, or you have insect
damage, or other cosmetic defects. They might snicker even more if it
only has 4 flowers on one inflorescence. But if you are proud of it and
think it is growing well, then it is a specimen. Don't let other
people disrupt your enjoyment of the plant, if you like it. People
worry too much about what other idiots think. Happy people form their
own opinions.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...

People
worry too much about what other idiots think. Happy people form their
own opinions.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

I singled these two sentences out of these very intelligent replies because,
well, they are true and because not only am I a happy idiot with opinions
all my own but I am drinking eggnog and you all probably aren't. (I left
the golden rules alone because people like to read them over and over again
and because they are true too and not seen often enough.)

Describing a plant set in front of the judges as a specimen is only one
aspect of how you might hear the word used. Specimen "size" might mean only
full grown, but it certainly implies more.

As has been pointed out, when one is set in front of you, you must know
something about the grex or species of the plant being described as a
specimen before you can truly know if it is really a specimen. It could be
that the person describing it is very proud of what is only the largest or
longest owned plant in their multi genera collection even though you just
saw a huge one at a recent show that was a 1000 times bigger. In this case
just nod and say "oooh, ah!"; don't snicker. It could be that it is the
only plant they have ever grown that has absolutely no blemishes at all on
the leaves and they are proud. And they should be. A blemish free plant is
a feat unto itself.

When I hear the term to describe a plant I am not seeing, I picture a plant
that has the following qualities: it has multiple leads or 'pups' (if it is
monopodial), it is larger than average for it's grex or species. It is
clean and well grown with what looks like many years of vigorous growth
behind it (I might call a single growth Phal a specimen, but I would
require more eggnog.) Whatever else it is, it is well established in it's
pot or mount and capable of blooming on many more than just a few
inflorescences on the next flowering. It is not likely for sale at any
earthly price.

However, often you come across sentences in catalogs like, "a kiekie (or
back bulb) from our specimen plant" or "vigorous seedling in a 2.5" pot
capable of growing into a specimen plant" and in these sentences the term is
more marketing ploy than anything else. There can be no guarantee that any
plant will one day be a specimen plant, even if it is cut off the back of
the largest CCM specimen plant ever known to the orchid collecting world.

Bottom line: Caveat emptor y mas nog por favor....

I have seen a picture of a Phal equestris and her kiekies taking over the
side of a house in the Philippines. The plant in this picture makes my
plant look like a seedling.

here is a link to the picture mentioned by J Fortuna, of the equestris
hanging in my greenhouse for people in this newsgroup who don't get apbo. I
do call it the "mother of all equestris" (because it is made from one plant
and many of her kiekies pinned back onto the basket over the years ) and I
would proudly admit it is 'specimen size' but truly it is not as big as they
can get, and this plant, in a 16 inch basket, has developed a bad case of
rabbit's foot fern in the last few years. It is also very true that one
could make a case that this is not a specimen at all but lots of plants in a
single basket, albeit all from one original plant. After all these years
many of the inflorescences that once connected them have died off leaving
the rooted kiekies to make more babies of their own. For CCM consideration,
this is a no-no, isn't it?
http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/equestri.htm

"J Fortuna" wrote in message
...
I know that there are some plants about which there is no doubt that they
are specimen size (for example: Al's Equestris Mom, the picture of which
Al
posted on abpo a while ago).

Thank you Trainman, Rob, and Al for all your explanations. Appreciate it.

I found it especially interesting that it is not so much the leaf span but
the number of inflorescences. I guess it makes sense since we grow orchids
primarily for the flowers not the leaves. And it does make sense that one
has to have seen a lot of plants in the same species to be able to judge
whether that particular plant is impressive for that species. It also makes
sense that most people would not part with their specimen for any amount of
money -- if I ever had grown a specimen (which is unlikely in the
foreseeable future, given that I am still pretty close to being a beginner
though with aspirations to consider myself an intermediately-experienced
Phal grower on my very bold days. :-) And yes, I also agree that happy
people form their own opinions, on the other hand, if I were to form the
opinion that I am an expert on Phals and my collection consists entirely of
specimen plants, I would have to make fun of myself, I fear. ;-)

Joanna

"Al" wrote in message
...

"Rob Halgren" wrote in message
...

People
worry too much about what other idiots think. Happy people form their
own opinions.

Rob

--
Rob's Rules: http://www.msu.edu/~halgren
1) There is always room for one more orchid
2) There is always room for two more orchids
2a. See rule 1
3) When one has insufficient credit to purchase
more orchids, obtain more credit

I singled these two sentences out of these very intelligent replies
because,
well, they are true and because not only am I a happy idiot with opinions
all my own but I am drinking eggnog and you all probably aren't. (I left
the golden rules alone because people like to read them over and over
again
and because they are true too and not seen often enough.)

Describing a plant set in front of the judges as a specimen is only one
aspect of how you might hear the word used. Specimen "size" might mean
only
full grown, but it certainly implies more.

As has been pointed out, when one is set in front of you, you must know
something about the grex or species of the plant being described as a
specimen before you can truly know if it is really a specimen. It could
be
that the person describing it is very proud of what is only the largest or
longest owned plant in their multi genera collection even though you just
saw a huge one at a recent show that was a 1000 times bigger. In this
case
just nod and say "oooh, ah!"; don't snicker. It could be that it is the
only plant they have ever grown that has absolutely no blemishes at all on
the leaves and they are proud. And they should be. A blemish free plant
is
a feat unto itself.

When I hear the term to describe a plant I am not seeing, I picture a
plant
that has the following qualities: it has multiple leads or 'pups' (if it
is
monopodial), it is larger than average for it's grex or species. It is
clean and well grown with what looks like many years of vigorous growth
behind it (I might call a single growth Phal a specimen, but I would
require more eggnog.) Whatever else it is, it is well established in it's
pot or mount and capable of blooming on many more than just a few
inflorescences on the next flowering. It is not likely for sale at any
earthly price.

However, often you come across sentences in catalogs like, "a kiekie (or
back bulb) from our specimen plant" or "vigorous seedling in a 2.5" pot
capable of growing into a specimen plant" and in these sentences the term
is
more marketing ploy than anything else. There can be no guarantee that
any
plant will one day be a specimen plant, even if it is cut off the back of
the largest CCM specimen plant ever known to the orchid collecting world.

Bottom line: Caveat emptor y mas nog por favor....

Fabulous, Al! Makes my little 3 spiked Phals look puny, though I know what
you guys are talking about. I have a lovely Catt that is on its way to
specimen-dom, and has faithfully flowered at Christmas since I got it.
Until this year. It has loads of new bulbs, and no sheaths.

Specimen, salad, who's counting? So, Joanna, enjoy them and call 'em
anything you want.

Diana

Al,

What media was that potted in???

Kye.

"Al" wrote in message
...
I have seen a picture of a Phal equestris and her kiekies taking over the
side of a house in the Philippines. The plant in this picture makes my
plant look like a seedling.

here is a link to the picture mentioned by J Fortuna, of the equestris
hanging in my greenhouse for people in this newsgroup who don't get apbo.
I
do call it the "mother of all equestris" (because it is made from one
plant
and many of her kiekies pinned back onto the basket over the years ) and
I
would proudly admit it is 'specimen size' but truly it is not as big as
they
can get, and this plant, in a 16 inch basket, has developed a bad case of
rabbit's foot fern in the last few years. It is also very true that one
could make a case that this is not a specimen at all but lots of plants in
a
single basket, albeit all from one original plant. After all these years
many of the inflorescences that once connected them have died off leaving
the rooted kiekies to make more babies of their own. For CCM
consideration,
this is a no-no, isn't it?
http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/equestri.htm

"J Fortuna" wrote in message
...
I know that there are some plants about which there is no doubt that
they
are specimen size (for example: Al's Equestris Mom, the picture of which
Al
posted on abpo a while ago).

PS

What unreasonable amount of money would it take to getyou to part with this
baby??? hehehehe

Kye.

"Kye" wrote in message
...
Al,

What media was that potted in???

Kye.

"Al" wrote in message
...
I have seen a picture of a Phal equestris and her kiekies taking over
the
side of a house in the Philippines. The plant in this picture makes my
plant look like a seedling.

here is a link to the picture mentioned by J Fortuna, of the equestris
hanging in my greenhouse for people in this newsgroup who don't get
apbo.
I
do call it the "mother of all equestris" (because it is made from one
plant
and many of her kiekies pinned back onto the basket over the years )
and
I
would proudly admit it is 'specimen size' but truly it is not as big as
they
can get, and this plant, in a 16 inch basket, has developed a bad case
of
rabbit's foot fern in the last few years. It is also very true that one
could make a case that this is not a specimen at all but lots of plants
in
a
single basket, albeit all from one original plant. After all these
years
many of the inflorescences that once connected them have died off
leaving
the rooted kiekies to make more babies of their own. For CCM
consideration,
this is a no-no, isn't it?
http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/equestri.htm

"J Fortuna" wrote in message
...
I know that there are some plants about which there is no doubt that
they
are specimen size (for example: Al's Equestris Mom, the picture of
which
Al
posted on abpo a while ago).

I needed to find something that would not decay or go toxic from absorbing
salts or stuff so that i would not have to repot it. It is in a wire basket
lined with a thin pad of coconut husk fiber. The rest is filled with
packing/Styrofoam peanuts. It is a very light weight 16 inch basket. It
has been growing undisturbed for about 11 years. I do pinch kiekies off of
it on a regular basis...


"Kye" wrote in message
...
Al,

What media was that potted in???

Kye.

"Al" wrote in message
...
I have seen a picture of a Phal equestris and her kiekies taking over
the
side of a house in the Philippines. The plant in this picture makes my
plant look like a seedling.

here is a link to the picture mentioned by J Fortuna, of the equestris
hanging in my greenhouse for people in this newsgroup who don't get
apbo.
I
do call it the "mother of all equestris" (because it is made from one
plant
and many of her kiekies pinned back onto the basket over the years )
and
I
would proudly admit it is 'specimen size' but truly it is not as big as
they
can get, and this plant, in a 16 inch basket, has developed a bad case
of
rabbit's foot fern in the last few years. It is also very true that one
could make a case that this is not a specimen at all but lots of plants
in
a
single basket, albeit all from one original plant. After all these
years
many of the inflorescences that once connected them have died off
leaving
the rooted kiekies to make more babies of their own. For CCM
consideration,
this is a no-no, isn't it?
http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/equestri.htm

"J Fortuna" wrote in message
...
I know that there are some plants about which there is no doubt that
they
are specimen size (for example: Al's Equestris Mom, the picture of
which
Al
posted on abpo a while ago).

And when is your next 'Regular basis" Al?

--

Hugs,
Molli


"Al" wrote in message
...
.. I do pinch kiekies off of
it on a regular basis...

Only requirement for a CCM or a CCE is that it be a plant robust in health
and appearence with an unusually large number of flowers and be in the care
of the exhibitor for at least 6 months prior to the award. CCM score between
80-89. CCEs get 90-100 pts. SBOEs Den speciosum at Santa Barbara trustees
meeting in 97 was a 100pt CCM. They didn't have a CCE then. The thing was
the size of a VW. No, bigger....

K Barrett

"Al" wrote in message
...
I have seen a picture of a Phal equestris and her kiekies taking over the
side of a house in the Philippines. The plant in this picture makes my
plant look like a seedling.

here is a link to the picture mentioned by J Fortuna, of the equestris
hanging in my greenhouse for people in this newsgroup who don't get apbo.
I
do call it the "mother of all equestris" (because it is made from one
plant
and many of her kiekies pinned back onto the basket over the years ) and
I
would proudly admit it is 'specimen size' but truly it is not as big as
they
can get, and this plant, in a 16 inch basket, has developed a bad case of
rabbit's foot fern in the last few years. It is also very true that one
could make a case that this is not a specimen at all but lots of plants in
a
single basket, albeit all from one original plant. After all these years
many of the inflorescences that once connected them have died off leaving
the rooted kiekies to make more babies of their own. For CCM
consideration,
this is a no-no, isn't it?
http://www.orchidexchange.com/Photos/equestri.htm

"J Fortuna" wrote in message
...
I know that there are some plants about which there is no doubt that
they
are specimen size (for example: Al's Equestris Mom, the picture of which
Al
posted on abpo a while ago).

Hey that was my question... Pity about the quarantine costs though...

Kye.

"molli" wrote in message
...
And when is your next 'Regular basis" Al?

--

Hugs,
Molli


"Al" wrote in message
...
. I do pinch kiekies off of
it on a regular basis...

The definition of what constitutes a specimen orchid can vary, I have a list
that we use for judging as a minimum specification for each genera to be a
specimen orchid. I won't type it all here but I can give the following
examples:

Australian Native Orchid - 12 inflorescences

Cattleya Species - 4 racemes and at least 2 flowers per raceme

Cattleya Cluster - 4 racemes and at least 8 flowers are required on each
raceme.

Lycaste Species - 10 flowers per plant
Lycaste Hybrid - 7 flowers per plant

Phalaenopsis - 4 racemes for both species and hybrid, the majority of the
flowers on the recemes should be open and the raceme should not have less
than 7 flowers except where this is not consistent with the usual habit of
the particular species or hybrid being exhibited, secondary branching is not
detrimental.

The list goes on and on but this gives you a good idea of what kind of size
you are looking for. There are also other variations on the cattleya plants
as well.

Let me know if you have any questions about any other specific genera.

"J Fortuna" wrote in message
...
I have been wondering for a while already about the usage of "specimen
size"
to describe an orchid plant.

Is this merely a subjective description like "really impressive size" or
are
there any rules of what would be considered specimen size and what would
not? Would this be something for which orchid judges at shows have
criteria?
Or is this just a term used informally?

I know that there are some plants about which there is no doubt that they
are specimen size (for example: Al's Equestris Mom, the picture of which
Al
posted on abpo a while ago). And then we can safely say for some plants
that
they are not specimen size, for example nobody would call a white Phal
hybrid with a leave-span of 8inches specimen sized. But then there are
plants for which it is less obvious.

I would assume that any criteria would have to vary by orchid type, of
course. Being primarily a Phal person myself, I am interested in any ideas
of how to tell when a white Phal hybrid for example has reached specimen
size. If there are no "objective" criteria, when could one dare start
calling a Phal specimen sized without being ridiculed by other orchid
growers?

Thanks,
Joanna