You said "ring counting is of very limited use" but thought it was
"very accurate" for bristlecone pine and worked well for some oaks.
I've also read dendrochronologists have found it accurate for Pinus
ponderosa.

What are some temperate tree species where ring counting has been
shown to be inaccurate?

Cereoid-UR12- schreef
Rinkytink was once lord of the rings until Gandalf had that evil wizard
kicked out of middle earth!!!

+ + +
As this movie so appeals to you surely you have cast yourself already. The
question is as what, as an Orc or something more sinister?

Don't answer that, we don't want to know.
PvR

David Hershey schreef
You said "ring counting is of very limited use" but thought it was
"very accurate" for bristlecone pine and worked well for some oaks.
I've also read dendrochronologists have found it accurate for Pinus
ponderosa.

What are some temperate tree species where ring counting has been
shown to be inaccurate?

+ + +
Actually I said that "ring counting is of very limited use" and that
determinations of age by dendrochronology can be very accurate, depending on
a number of factors. As I explained earlier, "dendrochronology" and "ring
counting" are not the same, except colloquially.

Your query for "some temperate tree species where ring counting has been
shown to be inaccurate" has it backwards. "White noise" is everywhere. The
focus is to find a species in a given area that lends itself to
dendrochronology. Oak is doing very well, but other species can be made to
serve with extra care. There is a treatise on the suitability in this
respect of not-commonly used species by Schweingruber, "Trees and Wood in
Dendrochronology", Springer-Verlag, 1993.
PvR

PS. If you are just looking for a piece of wood to demonstrate false growth
rings, look for it in one of the softwoods. Happens a fair amount.

Here's a scoop for you, Orc sucker, it was a series of books long before it
was in the movies.


P van Rijckevorsel wrote in message
...
Cereoid-UR12- schreef
Rinkytink was once lord of the rings until Gandalf had that evil wizard
kicked out of middle earth!!!

+ + +
As this movie so appeals to you surely you have cast yourself already. The
question is as what, as an Orc or something more sinister?

Don't answer that, we don't want to know.
PvR

Cereoid-UR12- schreef
Here's a scoop for you, Orc sucker, it was a series of books long before
it was in the movies.

+ + +
Yes, even elected as The Best Book Ever or some such by the BBC
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/bigread/). However, I was unwilling to assume you
were aware of that, with you not being the reading kind.
PvR

I am sure there are many local ledgends concerning very old plants.
In New Bloomfield, PA in the heart of Perry County is a Box
Huckleberry plant that is estimated to be over 13,000 years old and a
survivor of the ice age. This plant propigates by sending out runners
underground. The age is estimated by the area that the plant covers.
This one plant is now about 1/4 mile in diameter. I am not schooled
enough in Botany to evaluate the validity of the information. The
article cited below quotes the opinions of several of acedemics and
the plant is officially recognized by PA .

Any comments from serious botanists would be interesting.and welcome.

See
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deput...able082099.htm

Aaron


On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:53:23 -0500, "Routerider"
wrote:

Does anyone know how old this bush is? The article states that the bush
will be dated but it only states the approximated age.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ientshrub.html

Thanks for any help!

In article ,
[David Hershey] wrote...
"Routerider" wrote in message
...

Does anyone know how old this bush is? The article states that the bush
will be dated but it only states the approximated age.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ientshrub.html

Thanks for any help!

Probably they tested it and found that it didn't break the record so
there was no reason to publish a followup. Even ring counting of trees
might underestimate the age of some trees. Redwoods (Sequoia
sempervirens) can sprout from the stump so a particular redwood clone
could be older than the ring count would indicate.

A single quaking aspen (Populus tremuloides) clone can spread via root
suckers to cover 100 acres or more. One quaking aspen clone in Utah
named 'Pando' has been estimated to be 80,000 years old.
http://www.nps.gov/brca/quaking_aspen.html

That remarkable age seems perhaps a bit excessive, but if
true it may be the record holder.

Mitton and Grant (1996) stated that a quaking aspen clone can exceed a
million years in age.

That seems surprising. How did they reach that conclusion? Can
they really document the age of any such million-plus year old
clones? I guess I'll go look it up. [Checked, and that article
really doesn't back it up with more than a few citations likely
to be of similar age estimates in the literature. I'm unconvinced,
so far, but haven't checked the citations.]

'Pando' has been considered the most massive
living organism. It might be the oldest plant as well.

Reference

Mitton, J.B. and Grant, M.C. 1996. Genetic variation and natural
history of quaking aspen. BioScience 46:25-31.

Another good candidate for an "oldest plant" clone is _Lomatia
tasmanica_ in the Proteaceae. Reportedly it's all one clone [a single
sterile triploid hybrid], but this genetic individual reportedly has
an identified fossil record dated to be over 40,000 years old. [it's
rather neat that a still-living organism could have a fossil record]

http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben149.html
http://www.dpiwe.tas.gov.au/inter.ns...AN-54A7XU?open
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/...0tasmanian.htm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ientshrub.html

cheers

In article ,
[David Hershey] wrote...
"Routerider" wrote in message
...

Does anyone know how old this bush is? The article states that the bush
will be dated but it only states the approximated age.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ientshrub.html

Thanks for any help!

Probably they tested it and found that it didn't break the record so
there was no reason to publish a followup. Even ring counting of trees
might underestimate the age of some trees. Redwoods (Sequoia
sempervirens) can sprout from the stump so a particular redwood clone
could be older than the ring count would indicate.

A single quaking aspen (Populus tremuloides) clone can spread via root
suckers to cover 100 acres or more. One quaking aspen clone in Utah
named 'Pando' has been estimated to be 80,000 years old.
http://www.nps.gov/brca/quaking_aspen.html

That remarkable age seems perhaps a bit excessive, but if
true it may be the record holder.

Mitton and Grant (1996) stated that a quaking aspen clone can exceed a
million years in age.

That seems surprising. How did they reach that conclusion? Can
they really document the age of any such million-plus year old
clones? I guess I'll go look it up. [Checked, and that article
really doesn't back it up with more than a few citations likely
to be of similar age estimates in the literature. I'm unconvinced,
so far, but haven't checked the citations.]

'Pando' has been considered the most massive
living organism. It might be the oldest plant as well.

Reference

Mitton, J.B. and Grant, M.C. 1996. Genetic variation and natural
history of quaking aspen. BioScience 46:25-31.

Another good candidate for an "oldest plant" clone is _Lomatia
tasmanica_ in the Proteaceae. Reportedly it's all one clone [a single
sterile triploid hybrid], but this genetic individual reportedly has
an identified fossil record dated to be over 40,000 years old. [it's
rather neat that a still-living organism could have a fossil record]

http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben149.html
http://www.dpiwe.tas.gov.au/inter.ns...AN-54A7XU?open
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/...0tasmanian.htm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ientshrub.html

cheers

In article ,
[David Hershey] wrote...
"Routerider" wrote in message
...

Does anyone know how old this bush is? The article states that the bush
will be dated but it only states the approximated age.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ientshrub.html

Thanks for any help!

Probably they tested it and found that it didn't break the record so
there was no reason to publish a followup. Even ring counting of trees
might underestimate the age of some trees. Redwoods (Sequoia
sempervirens) can sprout from the stump so a particular redwood clone
could be older than the ring count would indicate.

A single quaking aspen (Populus tremuloides) clone can spread via root
suckers to cover 100 acres or more. One quaking aspen clone in Utah
named 'Pando' has been estimated to be 80,000 years old.
http://www.nps.gov/brca/quaking_aspen.html

That remarkable age seems perhaps a bit excessive, but if
true it may be the record holder.

Mitton and Grant (1996) stated that a quaking aspen clone can exceed a
million years in age.

That seems surprising. How did they reach that conclusion? Can
they really document the age of any such million-plus year old
clones? I guess I'll go look it up. [Checked, and that article
really doesn't back it up with more than a few citations likely
to be of similar age estimates in the literature. I'm unconvinced,
so far, but haven't checked the citations.]

'Pando' has been considered the most massive
living organism. It might be the oldest plant as well.

Reference

Mitton, J.B. and Grant, M.C. 1996. Genetic variation and natural
history of quaking aspen. BioScience 46:25-31.

Another good candidate for an "oldest plant" clone is _Lomatia
tasmanica_ in the Proteaceae. Reportedly it's all one clone [a single
sterile triploid hybrid], but this genetic individual reportedly has
an identified fossil record dated to be over 40,000 years old. [it's
rather neat that a still-living organism could have a fossil record]

http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben149.html
http://www.dpiwe.tas.gov.au/inter.ns...AN-54A7XU?open
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/...0tasmanian.htm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ientshrub.html

cheers

In article ,
[David Hershey] wrote...
"Routerider" wrote in message
...

Does anyone know how old this bush is? The article states that the bush
will be dated but it only states the approximated age.


http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ientshrub.html

Thanks for any help!

Probably they tested it and found that it didn't break the record so
there was no reason to publish a followup. Even ring counting of trees
might underestimate the age of some trees. Redwoods (Sequoia
sempervirens) can sprout from the stump so a particular redwood clone
could be older than the ring count would indicate.

A single quaking aspen (Populus tremuloides) clone can spread via root
suckers to cover 100 acres or more. One quaking aspen clone in Utah
named 'Pando' has been estimated to be 80,000 years old.
http://www.nps.gov/brca/quaking_aspen.html

That remarkable age seems perhaps a bit excessive, but if
true it may be the record holder.

Mitton and Grant (1996) stated that a quaking aspen clone can exceed a
million years in age.

That seems surprising. How did they reach that conclusion? Can
they really document the age of any such million-plus year old
clones? I guess I'll go look it up. [Checked, and that article
really doesn't back it up with more than a few citations likely
to be of similar age estimates in the literature. I'm unconvinced,
so far, but haven't checked the citations.]

'Pando' has been considered the most massive
living organism. It might be the oldest plant as well.

Reference

Mitton, J.B. and Grant, M.C. 1996. Genetic variation and natural
history of quaking aspen. BioScience 46:25-31.

Another good candidate for an "oldest plant" clone is _Lomatia
tasmanica_ in the Proteaceae. Reportedly it's all one clone [a single
sterile triploid hybrid], but this genetic individual reportedly has
an identified fossil record dated to be over 40,000 years old. [it's
rather neat that a still-living organism could have a fossil record]

http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben149.html
http://www.dpiwe.tas.gov.au/inter.ns...AN-54A7XU?open
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/...0tasmanian.htm
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...ientshrub.html

cheers

Another species existing as a single clone is the mangosteen, Garcinia
mangostana, which preproduces through apomictic seed. A dioecious species, the
one clone remaining is female. But I've never heard any estimates on the age
of that genotype.

Another species existing as a single clone is the mangosteen, Garcinia
mangostana, which preproduces through apomictic seed. A dioecious species, the
one clone remaining is female. But I've never heard any estimates on the age
of that genotype.

Aaron wrote in message . ..
I am sure there are many local ledgends concerning very old plants.
In New Bloomfield, PA in the heart of Perry County is a Box
Huckleberry plant that is estimated to be over 13,000 years old and a
survivor of the ice age. This plant propigates by sending out runners
underground. The age is estimated by the area that the plant covers.
This one plant is now about 1/4 mile in diameter. I am not schooled
enough in Botany to evaluate the validity of the information. The
article cited below quotes the opinions of several of acedemics and
the plant is officially recognized by PA .

Any comments from serious botanists would be interesting.and welcome.

See
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deput...able082099.htm

Aaron



The National Park Service has designated the Perry County box
huckleberry (Gaylussacia brachycera) site a National Natural Landmark,
but the NPS website gives the age as 1,300 years.
http://www.nps.gov/nero/nnl/boxhuckleberry.htm Is that a typo or
doesn't the NPS believe the 13,000 figure either?

The 13,000 year age estimate seems to have been made by Wherry (1972).
A botanist would have to examine Wherry's original publication to
evaluate whether his methods and conclusions are reasonable. Woody
plant expert Michael Dirr wrote that the age estimate was "somewhat
suspect" but didn't elaborate.

The current record-holder, King's holly (Lomatia tasmanica) is on
firmer ground because it is a rare triploid. By chance, a fossil leaf
identical in morphology to King's holly was found and dated at 43,600
years old. That is fairly convincing evidence as these things go.
King's holly could also have been in existence much longer than 43,600
years, but there is no evidence one way or the other.

Any of these individual plant clones could be much, much older than
they have been dated. There is just no way yet known to accurately
estimate how long they have been in existence. Even many nonwoody
plants are clones. Most dandelions are clones because they produce
mainly apomictic seeds.

References

THE OLDEST LIVING PLANT INDIVIDUAL:
http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben149.html

Dirr, M. A. 1983. Manual of Woody Landscape Plants. Champaign, IL:
Stipes Publishing

Lynch, A. J. J. , R. W. Barnes, J. Cambecèdes and R. E. Vaillancourt.
Genetic Evidence that Lomatia tasmanica (Proteaceae) is an Ancient
Clone Australian Journal of Botany 46(1) 25 - 33

Wherry, E. T. 1972. Box-huckleberry as the oldest living protoplasm.
Castanea 37, 94-95.

The article cites the oldest plant as the one bordering US route
22/322 near Hamburg which is not too far from the one in New
Bloomfield. The plant bordering on the highway was partially cleared
for the highway and now the only remaining part is on private property
and unmarked. I have seen the one in New Bloomfield where my wife's
family lived.

I always took the age of these plants with a grain of salt, since it
seemed to me to be a classic case of the locals fooling the city boy.
When the subject came up here I to the opportunity to run the
infromation past others more able to put it in perspective.

Thanks .
Aaron


On 28 Jan 2004 15:07:41 -0800, (David Hershey) wrote:

Aaron wrote in message . ..
I am sure there are many local ledgends concerning very old plants.
In New Bloomfield, PA in the heart of Perry County is a Box
Huckleberry plant that is estimated to be over 13,000 years old and a
survivor of the ice age. This plant propigates by sending out runners
underground. The age is estimated by the area that the plant covers.
This one plant is now about 1/4 mile in diameter. I am not schooled
enough in Botany to evaluate the validity of the information. The
article cited below quotes the opinions of several of acedemics and
the plant is officially recognized by PA .

Any comments from serious botanists would be interesting.and welcome.

See
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deput...able082099.htm

Aaron



The National Park Service has designated the Perry County box
huckleberry (Gaylussacia brachycera) site a National Natural Landmark,
but the NPS website gives the age as 1,300 years.
http://www.nps.gov/nero/nnl/boxhuckleberry.htm Is that a typo or
doesn't the NPS believe the 13,000 figure either?

The 13,000 year age estimate seems to have been made by Wherry (1972).
A botanist would have to examine Wherry's original publication to
evaluate whether his methods and conclusions are reasonable. Woody
plant expert Michael Dirr wrote that the age estimate was "somewhat
suspect" but didn't elaborate.

The current record-holder, King's holly (Lomatia tasmanica) is on
firmer ground because it is a rare triploid. By chance, a fossil leaf
identical in morphology to King's holly was found and dated at 43,600
years old. That is fairly convincing evidence as these things go.
King's holly could also have been in existence much longer than 43,600
years, but there is no evidence one way or the other.

Any of these individual plant clones could be much, much older than
they have been dated. There is just no way yet known to accurately
estimate how long they have been in existence. Even many nonwoody
plants are clones. Most dandelions are clones because they produce
mainly apomictic seeds.

References

THE OLDEST LIVING PLANT INDIVIDUAL:
http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben149.html

Dirr, M. A. 1983. Manual of Woody Landscape Plants. Champaign, IL:
Stipes Publishing

Lynch, A. J. J. , R. W. Barnes, J. Cambecèdes and R. E. Vaillancourt.
Genetic Evidence that Lomatia tasmanica (Proteaceae) is an Ancient
Clone Australian Journal of Botany 46(1) 25 - 33

Wherry, E. T. 1972. Box-huckleberry as the oldest living protoplasm.
Castanea 37, 94-95.

The article cites the oldest plant as the one bordering US route
22/322 near Hamburg which is not too far from the one in New
Bloomfield. The plant bordering on the highway was partially cleared
for the highway and now the only remaining part is on private property
and unmarked. I have seen the one in New Bloomfield where my wife's
family lived.

I always took the age of these plants with a grain of salt, since it
seemed to me to be a classic case of the locals fooling the city boy.
When the subject came up here I to the opportunity to run the
infromation past others more able to put it in perspective.

Thanks .
Aaron


On 28 Jan 2004 15:07:41 -0800, (David Hershey) wrote:

Aaron wrote in message . ..
I am sure there are many local ledgends concerning very old plants.
In New Bloomfield, PA in the heart of Perry County is a Box
Huckleberry plant that is estimated to be over 13,000 years old and a
survivor of the ice age. This plant propigates by sending out runners
underground. The age is estimated by the area that the plant covers.
This one plant is now about 1/4 mile in diameter. I am not schooled
enough in Botany to evaluate the validity of the information. The
article cited below quotes the opinions of several of acedemics and
the plant is officially recognized by PA .

Any comments from serious botanists would be interesting.and welcome.

See
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deput...able082099.htm

Aaron



The National Park Service has designated the Perry County box
huckleberry (Gaylussacia brachycera) site a National Natural Landmark,
but the NPS website gives the age as 1,300 years.
http://www.nps.gov/nero/nnl/boxhuckleberry.htm Is that a typo or
doesn't the NPS believe the 13,000 figure either?

The 13,000 year age estimate seems to have been made by Wherry (1972).
A botanist would have to examine Wherry's original publication to
evaluate whether his methods and conclusions are reasonable. Woody
plant expert Michael Dirr wrote that the age estimate was "somewhat
suspect" but didn't elaborate.

The current record-holder, King's holly (Lomatia tasmanica) is on
firmer ground because it is a rare triploid. By chance, a fossil leaf
identical in morphology to King's holly was found and dated at 43,600
years old. That is fairly convincing evidence as these things go.
King's holly could also have been in existence much longer than 43,600
years, but there is no evidence one way or the other.

Any of these individual plant clones could be much, much older than
they have been dated. There is just no way yet known to accurately
estimate how long they have been in existence. Even many nonwoody
plants are clones. Most dandelions are clones because they produce
mainly apomictic seeds.

References

THE OLDEST LIVING PLANT INDIVIDUAL:
http://www.ou.edu/cas/botany-micro/ben/ben149.html

Dirr, M. A. 1983. Manual of Woody Landscape Plants. Champaign, IL:
Stipes Publishing

Lynch, A. J. J. , R. W. Barnes, J. Cambecèdes and R. E. Vaillancourt.
Genetic Evidence that Lomatia tasmanica (Proteaceae) is an Ancient
Clone Australian Journal of Botany 46(1) 25 - 33

Wherry, E. T. 1972. Box-huckleberry as the oldest living protoplasm.
Castanea 37, 94-95.