Hi, fellow ponders, and thanks for being there.

I did something dumb. I was trying to build a nice buffer in my pond
and added a bunch of landscaping lime in pellet form. Immediately,
the pond turned a cloudy brown, and it has remained cloudy and brown
now for weeks. I checked the manufacturer of the lime to see if it
had any tannins or iron, but there was none mentioned in their
literature, so I am thinking it must be just plain old mud.

Is this going to hurt the fish? Recommendations for how to clean this
mess up without changing water? My water is *finally* starting to
mature and I hate to rock the boat.

Thanks.

Joan in Oregon


P.S. Great idea about setting up a moderated group. Thanks to
whomever went to the trouble to get this going!

Hi Joan,

Welcome to rpm. I hope you will get some good advice from the group
here.

Jim

did you get a pH on the water? landscape lime could be quicklime and
drive the pH up over 8.
you need dolomitic limestone, it is almost like sand, off white with
dark gray flecks, a little course. Ingrid

On Tue, 8 May 2007 05:49:53 CST, Joan wrote:

Hi, fellow ponders, and thanks for being there.

I did something dumb. I was trying to build a nice buffer in my pond
and added a bunch of landscaping lime in pellet form. Immediately,
the pond turned a cloudy brown, and it has remained cloudy and brown
now for weeks. I checked the manufacturer of the lime to see if it
had any tannins or iron, but there was none mentioned in their
literature, so I am thinking it must be just plain old mud.

Is this going to hurt the fish? Recommendations for how to clean this
mess up without changing water? My water is *finally* starting to
mature and I hate to rock the boat.

Thanks.

Joan in Oregon


P.S. Great idea about setting up a moderated group. Thanks to
whomever went to the trouble to get this going!

"Joan" wrote in message
...
Hi, fellow ponders, and thanks for being there.

I did something dumb. I was trying to build a nice buffer in my pond
and added a bunch of landscaping lime in pellet form. Immediately,
the pond turned a cloudy brown, and it has remained cloudy and brown
now for weeks. I checked the manufacturer of the lime to see if it
had any tannins or iron, but there was none mentioned in their
literature, so I am thinking it must be just plain old mud.

Is this going to hurt the fish? Recommendations for how to clean this
mess up without changing water? My water is *finally* starting to
mature and I hate to rock the boat.

Thanks.

Joan in Oregon


P.S. Great idea about setting up a moderated group. Thanks to
whomever went to the trouble to get this going!

We used the garden lime in one of our ponds when we first started it up
about 10 years ago. My filter (upflow gravel) was able to trap the lime
onto the surface of the gravel. Water cleared within a few days. To remove
the lime, you might try the quilt batting that some use for removal of some
of the green water algae. If there is very much of the lime in the pond, it
will clog the quilt batting quickly, so it may need to be cleaned several
times.

The stuff I used is called dolomite lime. It contains mostly calcium
carbonate and magnesium carbonate.

The pH has been fairly stable from day to day and is ranging from 7.5
in the AM to 8.5 at the end of the day. I am also having a big algae
bloom, and I have some elodea, so I think that is partly responsible
for the swings. I also have barley bales in there and I'm netting out
what algae I can.

My buffering capacity is still on the low side, so I got some oyster
shells for koi ponds and have them in a bag. So far, so dramatic
change.

I am trying to do whatever I do *carefully* and *slowly* and only
after a great deal of thought of the pro's and cons. Oy.

Joan

did you get a pH on the water? landscape lime could be quicklime and
drive the pH up over 8.
you need dolomitic limestone, it is almost like sand, off white with
dark gray flecks, a little course. Ingrid

Oh okay, thanks. My only filter is a big bag of lava rock at the top
of my waterfall (in the plastic box where the water comes back in)
with plants growing on top of it. I have a skimmer at the other end,
where the pump is.

Do you mean I should just get some quilt batting and put it in the
skimmer? I can do that, and I'd gladly clean it every day if it will
help.

Do you think that will get that muddy stuff suspended in the water out
too? I tried running some of the muddy water through a cotton bag
(single thickness) and it didn't do anything at all, but maybe it
wasn't thick enough?

Thanks.

Joan


We used the garden lime in one of our ponds when we first started it up
about 10 years ago. My filter (upflow gravel) was able to trap the lime
onto the surface of the gravel. Water cleared within a few days. To remove
the lime, you might try the quilt batting that some use for removal of some
of the green water algae. If there is very much of the lime in the pond, it
will clog the quilt batting quickly, so it may need to be cleaned several
times.

On Tue, 8 May 2007 13:00:33 CST, Joan wrote:

The stuff I used is called dolomite lime. It contains mostly calcium
carbonate and magnesium carbonate.

The pH has been fairly stable from day to day and is ranging from 7.5
in the AM to 8.5 at the end of the day.

Unfortunately that isn't stable. Your change should only be about 7.5 in
the AM to a max of 7.9 in the PM. The problem is your low KH/buffering, as
you mentioned, not the plants. This is also why the algae is blooming and
why the mud is not settling. Get the KH/buffering up and things will settle
down/out.

What is the KH of your tap water? If that is good, do a slow flow thru if
you can, otherwise 10% water change every other day will not hurt the
balance.

A flow thru system, with carbon filters on the new water, is being highly
recommended in the koi community right now. Where about 10% exchanges over
a 24 hour period. This isn't for everyone, especially if your tap water
isn't great, or water prices are high. It's more a high-end koi keeper's
ideal. I personally have an accidental flow thru, some small leak that
drops the level about an inch/day, so I add water when I get home.... I'm
still doing a 20% on the weekends.

IMO, I'd be using baking soda to get my KH up. About 1 cup/1000 gallons and
retest. That pH swing is harder on your fish and filter than adding baking
soda. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

it isnt the same stuff, most likely. I will say tho, that when we
fill our big ponds out of the well at the dacha the water has a
definite whitish cast.
it may be possible to remove a lot of that "stuff" with aluminum
sulfate aka alum.
if your pond is very warm, that algae can suck the CO2 out of the
water at night right along with the oxygen.

the HARDNESS (forget carbonate for now) is due to calcium and
magnesium. oysters only have calcium. but they both do the same
thing. they are the main buffering ions, but you can try putting some
baking soda, sodium bicarbonate in to increase the carbonate buffer.

I think it would be good to start with what is your water like out of
the tap???

can anybody remember the url for the florida state article on this
topic? Ingrid


On Tue, 8 May 2007 13:00:33 CST, Joan wrote:
The stuff I used is called dolomite lime. It contains mostly calcium
carbonate and magnesium carbonate.

The pH has been fairly stable from day to day and is ranging from 7.5
in the AM to 8.5 at the end of the day. I am also having a big algae
bloom, and I have some elodea, so I think that is partly responsible
for the swings. I also have barley bales in there and I'm netting out
what algae I can.

My buffering capacity is still on the low side, so I got some oyster
shells for koi ponds and have them in a bag. So far, so dramatic
change.

I am trying to do whatever I do *carefully* and *slowly* and only
after a great deal of thought of the pro's and cons. Oy.

Joan

did you get a pH on the water? landscape lime could be quicklime and
drive the pH up over 8.
you need dolomitic limestone, it is almost like sand, off white with
dark gray flecks, a little course. Ingrid

The pH has been fairly stable from day to day and is ranging from 7.5
in the AM to 8.5 at the end of the day.

Unfortunately that isn't stable. Your change should only be about 7.5 in
the AM to a max of 7.9 in the PM. The problem is your low KH/buffering, as
you mentioned, not the plants.

The KH has been ranging from 89.5 to 107.4. What I mean by stable is
that is always about the same when I measure it at the same time each
day. Our water is completely soft, so I have been trying for a long
time to get both the GH and the KH up and have been using sodium
bicarbonate as a temporary booster till I can get enough GH in there
to hold the buffering capacity up long-term. I've been seeing the
wide diurnal pH swings even when my KH was 100, so I am thinking
that the effect of photosynthesis (CO2 consumption) during the day
accounts for the high pH at the end of the day.

The whole dolomite/mud thing happened because I was trying to get the
KH up. :-( I figured I can't keep dumping NaHCO3 in there
indefinitely, because eventually the HC03 will get consumed and I'll
end up with too much Na in there. I've been adding an awful lot of
baking soda in there since the pond was built 2 years ago.

Joan

This is also why the algae is blooming and
why the mud is not settling. Get the KH/buffering up and things will settle
down/out.

What is the KH of your tap water? If that is good, do a slow flow thru if
you can, otherwise 10% water change every other day will not hurt the
balance.

A flow thru system, with carbon filters on the new water, is being highly
recommended in the koi community right now. Where about 10% exchanges over
a 24 hour period. This isn't for everyone, especially if your tap water
isn't great, or water prices are high. It's more a high-end koi keeper's
ideal. I personally have an accidental flow thru, some small leak that
drops the level about an inch/day, so I add water when I get home.... I'm
still doing a 20% on the weekends.

IMO, I'd be using baking soda to get my KH up. About 1 cup/1000 gallons and
retest. That pH swing is harder on your fish and filter than adding baking
soda. ~ jan
------------
2Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Wed, 9 May 2007 07:50:43 CST, wrote:

it isnt the same stuff, most likely. I will say tho, that when we
fill our big ponds out of the well at the dacha the water has a
definite whitish cast.
it may be possible to remove a lot of that "stuff" with aluminum
sulfate aka alum.

Is that a flocculent? I did add a flocculent once (Pond Care brand);
used the recommended dose; no great change.

if your pond is very warm, that algae can suck the CO2 out of the
water at night right along with the oxygen.

It's not terribly warm, but I did figure that the CO2 consumption by
the underwater plants during photosynthesis was responsible for the
diurnal variations in pH, which is why I've been working hard at
netting out as much algae as I can. Don't want to get rid of the
elodea, though, because I know they complete with algae for NH3, even
before it's converted to nitrate.

the HARDNESS (forget carbonate for now) is due to calcium and
magnesium. oysters only have calcium. but they both do the same
thing. they are the main buffering ions, but you can try putting some
baking soda, sodium bicarbonate in to increase the carbonate buffer.

I've been doing that all along while I'm waiting for the
calcium/magnesium hardness to increase long-term. Since the pond is a
closed system, I'm concerned that there will eventually be an excess
build up of sodium. My salt test kit detects only chloride, so I have
no idea how much sodium is in there or how much is too much.

I think it would be good to start with what is your water like out of
the tap???

Soft soft soft.

can anybody remember the url for the florida state article on this
topic? Ingrid

Joan

yes, a flocculent. alum is aluminum sulfate. cheaper to get it but
dont use it in acid ponds or ponds with low hardness.

I guess I would start with some water changes to physically get rid of
stuff. once you have some liquid calcium or something. call Jo Ann
and ask her where she gets hers. She has that acid soft water down in
Alabama and they change 3000 gallons per day on their pond for their
monster koi. 251-649-4790
Ingrid

On Wed, 9 May 2007 12:51:11 CST, Joan wrote:
Is that a flocculent? I did add a flocculent once (Pond Care brand);
used the recommended dose; no great change.

ahh.. at night the plants use up the CO2 to make glucose, dark cycle
of photosynthesis.
you ARE on the right track tho, adding calcium/magnesium to the pond.
with soft water (water softener or soft acid out of the ground/city?)

resist any temptation to use the "pH pill" or plaster of paris, this
makes the pH swing wildly for some reason.

I think the problem is you added the wrong stuff. Ingrid

On Wed, 9 May 2007 12:51:01 CST, Joan wrote:
that the effect of photosynthesis (CO2 consumption) during the day
accounts for the high pH at the end of the day.

The whole dolomite/mud thing happened because I was trying to get the
KH up. :-( I figured I can't keep dumping NaHCO3 in there
indefinitely, because eventually the HC03 will get consumed and I'll
end up with too much Na in there. I've been adding an awful lot of
baking soda in there since the pond was built 2 years ago.

[snipped for bandwidth]

To remove
the lime, you might try the quilt batting that some use for removal of some
of the green water algae. If there is very much of the lime in the pond, it
will clog the quilt batting quickly, so it may need to be cleaned several
times.

Okay, got some polyester batting. Put it in my skimmer, over the
pump. Added floculant. Added sluge-eating bacteria. Left it
overnight.

Wow! That stuff really traps some dirt!! The water isn't clear yet,
but it's a whole lot better.

Now I'd better go out and check on the pH and hardness again, and get
some of that liquid lime.

THANK YOU, from me and the fish.

Joan
___________________

On Fri, 11 May 2007 08:57:34 CST, wrote:

resist any temptation to use the "pH pill" or plaster of paris, this
makes the pH swing wildly for some reason.

I never heard that before and don't understand it. Calcium carbonate
is the calcium that buffers pH. Calcium carbonate stops dissolving
into the water, when the water reaches a pH of 7.8, although calcium
may continue to add to the general hardness of the water GH does
little or nothing toward buffering pH. Calcium carbonate, in the
form of calcium sulfate, increases the KH when introduced into the
water at a pH of 7.8 . So how does increased levels of calcium
carbonate cause wild pH swings?

Regards,

Hal

dont know, but when those "pills" are tossed into soft acid ponds the
pH swings are enough to start killing the fish. It sounds good in
theory, just doesnt work. Another Koivorkian moment.
Ingrid

On Sat, 12 May 2007 09:10:26 CST, Hal wrote:

On Fri, 11 May 2007 08:57:34 CST, wrote:

resist any temptation to use the "pH pill" or plaster of paris, this
makes the pH swing wildly for some reason.

I never heard that before and don't understand it. Calcium carbonate
is the calcium that buffers pH. Calcium carbonate stops dissolving
into the water, when the water reaches a pH of 7.8, although calcium
may continue to add to the general hardness of the water GH does
little or nothing toward buffering pH. Calcium carbonate, in the
form of calcium sulfate, increases the KH when introduced into the
water at a pH of 7.8 . So how does increased levels of calcium
carbonate cause wild pH swings?

Regards,

Hal