I'm about to expand my 400 gallon pond to a 1250 gallon. Yea!
Some background: San Francisco location, it never freezes. Leafy,
shady area. Pond is a large "C" shape (I know it's not ideal, but the
pond goes around trees & roots). The "C" is about 1' at it's
narrowest and 3' at it's widest. I've got 3 fish I think are koi (6"
long, with whiskers) and 5 other small goldfish, 2 perpetual tadpoles
and one frog. Also, I've currently got an Oase Aquamax 1000 pumping
into an Oase Filtoclear 800. with no skimmer and no bottom drain.
I'd like to have a skimmer & bottom drain in the new pond.

There is now a small waterfall I'm thinking of transforming into a
water-garden/exposed veggie filter (i.e., 3 levels of shallow pools,
each pool ~2' diameter, each filled with plants). Any opinions on
whether this should work well for water cleansing?

Biggest question: Any tips, suggestions, opinions about joining a new
liner to the old one? Anyone have success doing this, or should I
just spend the $ on a new huge liner? (Don't forget, the "C" shape
makes for a lot of unavoidable bunching-up of liner, whereas is I join
the old to the new, I can avoid alot of the bunching).

Should I keep the old pump/filter set and get another 'small' filter/
pump set (and use both at once), or scrap the old and get one larger
new set?

On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 18:42:46 CST, RG wrote:

I'm about to expand my 400 gallon pond to a 1250 gallon. Yea!

Yea! :-)

Biggest question: Any tips, suggestions, opinions about joining a new
liner to the old one? Anyone have success doing this, or should I
just spend the $ on a new huge liner? (Don't forget, the "C" shape
makes for a lot of unavoidable bunching-up of liner, whereas is I join
the old to the new, I can avoid alot of the bunching).

Don't do it, buy one piece, even if you get it right, it will always be a
source of worry. So far I've yet to hear of a success story that I
remember.

Should I keep the old pump/filter set and get another 'small' filter/
pump set (and use both at once), or scrap the old and get one larger
new set?

Keep the old, but get a new larger one. The old is already cycled...
assuming you're going to some how keep it running during the remodel?
Perhaps on the holding container? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Should I keep the old pump/filter set and get another 'small' filter/
pump set (and use both at once), or scrap the old and get one larger
new set?

Keep the old, but get a new larger one. The old is already cycled...
assuming you're going to some how keep it running during the remodel?
Perhaps on the holding container? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds:www.jjspond.us

Well, that's a question too: I've got a clean 55 gallon HDPE drum I
could put the creatures in during the remodel. How long do you think
they would last in there? It would be awfully tight. And the frog
won't be happy without a view...

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:12:15 CST, RG wrote:

Keep the old, but get a new larger one. The old is already cycled...
assuming you're going to some how keep it running during the remodel?
Perhaps on the holding container? ~ jan

Well, that's a question too: I've got a clean 55 gallon HDPE drum I
could put the creatures in during the remodel. How long do you think
they would last in there? It would be awfully tight. And the frog
won't be happy without a view...

That is pretty tight. Right now is the time to get kiddy pools on
clearance. Be sure and net the top so they don't jump out, use as much of
the water from the pond as you can to fill it. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

In article ,
~ jan wrote:

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 07:12:15 CST, RG wrote:

Keep the old, but get a new larger one. The old is already cycled...
assuming you're going to some how keep it running during the remodel?
Perhaps on the holding container? ~ jan

Well, that's a question too: I've got a clean 55 gallon HDPE drum I
could put the creatures in during the remodel. How long do you think
they would last in there? It would be awfully tight. And the frog
won't be happy without a view...

That is pretty tight. Right now is the time to get kiddy pools on
clearance. Be sure and net the top so they don't jump out, use as much of
the water from the pond as you can to fill it. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

I used one of those formed plastic whiskey barrel pond liners as my fish
motel. The kiddie pool was too shallow and filled with plants.
Didn't want the bigger fish flipping out in their rambunctiousness since
sides bow out and there is no lip.
I used a small aquarium pump and airstone to keep the water aerated, but
used no filter. Water started to get a teeny bit toxic after about a
week, though, so I was happy to get them back in a pond before too
ammonia.

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

Don't do it, buy one piece, even if you get it right, it will always be a
source of worry. So far I've yet to hear of a success story that I
remember.

We joined the liner used in our falls to the liner for the streams.
No leaks yet.

Jim

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:12:36 CST, Phyllis and Jim
wrote:

Don't do it, buy one piece, even if you get it right, it will always be a
source of worry. So far I've yet to hear of a success story that I
remember.

We joined the liner used in our falls to the liner for the streams.
No leaks yet.
Jim

Joining in streams, not such a problem, but at the bottom of the pond? I'd
worry.

Recently a club owner enlarged her pond, contractor didn't get big enough
liner, seamed it (both pieces brand new) lasted 6 weeks and started
leaking. She had to buy a whole new piece and the contractor had to rip it
out and do over. :-( ~ jan
------------
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

~ jan wrote:

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:12:36 CST, Phyllis and Jim
wrote:

Don't do it, buy one piece, even if you get it right, it will always be
a source of worry. So far I've yet to hear of a success story that I
remember.

We joined the liner used in our falls to the liner for the streams.
No leaks yet.
Jim

Joining in streams, not such a problem, but at the bottom of the pond? I'd
worry.

Recently a club owner enlarged her pond, contractor didn't get big enough
liner, seamed it (both pieces brand new) lasted 6 weeks and started
leaking. She had to buy a whole new piece and the contractor had to rip it
out and do over. :-( ~ jan

I had an odd-shaped pond that would have required me to buy about 3x as much
liner to do it without seams (and at 1000 sq. ft. of EPDM for $0.60/ft at
the time, I didn't want to go that route), and I never had a problem with
it, even though I had to take it apart and redo the join before I ever put
water in it.

But I can't imagine getting a _used_ liner clean enough to hold the glue, so
I wouldn't try with an existing pond.
--
derek

Many thanks everybody. I will take the advice on the liner and just
redo the whole shebang.

Any comments on the pump/filter question? I think the biggest
constraint here is space. Small lot in the city and my wife has
staked out a lot of the square footage for the garden!

I would like to keep koi in this small pond if possible (getting
conflicting advice) so I'd like as much filtration/aeration etc as
possible. I don't mind spending for a compact new filter & pump, or
building a do-it-myself model. I just need to figure out the most
space-efficient design, that can ideally be buried. I posted a
drawing of possible plans he http://koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63835

Any way to get photos onto rec.ponds?

--Rob

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:55:39 CST, RG wrote:

Many thanks everybody. I will take the advice on the liner and just
redo the whole shebang.

Any comments on the pump/filter question? I think the biggest
constraint here is space. Small lot in the city and my wife has
staked out a lot of the square footage for the garden!

I would like to keep koi in this small pond if possible (getting
conflicting advice) so I'd like as much filtration/aeration etc as
possible. I don't mind spending for a compact new filter & pump, or
building a do-it-myself model. I just need to figure out the most
space-efficient design, that can ideally be buried. I posted a
drawing of possible plans he http://koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63835

Any way to get photos onto rec.ponds?

--Rob

Photos only thru photobucket or website ways. There are newsgroups that
allow them.... and you can do what you did, post on koiphen and direct us
there. :-) You definitely need a bigger pond from the picture, almost
hidden by the rest of the landscaping. ;-) No grass, so I guess the hot tub
had to go. Better a pond then a hot tub any day.

Don't know if you've looked at my website, but my koi ponds are a total of
1300 gallons, 1500 w/filter, my 4 barrel in ground filters do a great job.
I use to have 27 koi at one point. Water quality wasn't so much an issue,
but the over crowding was, as they got bigger I started having problems.
Now I have 4 in the upper pond and 5 in the lower, with 3 of those on the
small side. I probably should have no more than 8. They're butterfly koi
which seem to do better in smaller quarters than their short-fin
high-classed cousins (imo).

Just this year I put a 2 barrel system on my 1000 gallon lily pond. This
may be all you need. What's nice about the 4 barrel is I only have to clean
the bio-chambers once/year, and I can run one side while cleaning the
other. The pre-filter only gets cleaned a few times/year. I run all year,
but on much slower flow November - March.

Click on My Pond Filter, Demon Pond Filter & my Lily Pond to see the
plumbing underneath the lily pond for the skimmer and bottom drain. Website
in sig. line. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

On Aug 21, 6:10 pm, ~ jan wrote:
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 16:55:39 CST, RG wrote:
Many thanks everybody. I will take the advice on the liner and just
redo the whole shebang.

Any comments on the pump/filter question? I think the biggest
constraint here is space. Small lot in the city and my wife has
staked out a lot of the square footage for the garden!

I would like to keep koi in this small pond if possible (getting
conflicting advice) so I'd like as much filtration/aeration etc as
possible. I don't mind spending for a compact new filter & pump, or
building a do-it-myself model. I just need to figure out the most
space-efficient design, that can ideally be buried. I posted a
drawing of possible plans he http://koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63835

Any way to get photos onto rec.ponds?

--Rob

Photos only thru photobucket or website ways. There are newsgroups that
allow them.... and you can do what you did, post on koiphen and direct us
there. :-) You definitely need a bigger pond from the picture, almost
hidden by the rest of the landscaping. ;-) No grass, so I guess the hot tub
had to go. Better a pond then a hot tub any day.

Don't know if you've looked at my website, but my koi ponds are a total of
1300 gallons, 1500 w/filter, my 4 barrel in ground filters do a great job.
I use to have 27 koi at one point. Water quality wasn't so much an issue,
but the over crowding was, as they got bigger I started having problems.
Now I have 4 in the upper pond and 5 in the lower, with 3 of those on the
small side. I probably should have no more than 8. They're butterfly koi
which seem to do better in smaller quarters than their short-fin
high-classed cousins (imo).

Just this year I put a 2 barrel system on my 1000 gallon lily pond. This
may be all you need. What's nice about the 4 barrel is I only have to clean
the bio-chambers once/year, and I can run one side while cleaning the
other. The pre-filter only gets cleaned a few times/year. I run all year,
but on much slower flow November - March.

Click on My Pond Filter, Demon Pond Filter & my Lily Pond to see the
plumbing underneath the lily pond for the skimmer and bottom drain. Website
in sig. line. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds:www.jjspond.us

Jan,

I sincerely appreciate your continued help for those of us with these
basic questions.

I've looked at your website (as I have in the past, back when I built
my first pond 3 years ago) and I get a pretty clear picture of your
filter system. The 2 barrel could work for me, but it's still a lot
of space taken up. (I didn't get rid of the spa, just moved it into
the corner :-] ).

Is there any way to get more efficient filtration using up less
volume? You've got 2 barrels (100 gallons) for a 1000 gallon pond, so
you're at a 1:10 filterond ratio. What do you think of filters like
the Oase Filtoclear 3000? It advertises itself for a 1500 gallon pond
(http://www.pondusa.com/filter3w.htm) and only has a filter volume of
3.7 gallons (so a ratio of 1:405). Are they that far off base? It's
expensive but that's a huge space savings for us cityfolk.

--Rob

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 02:32:07 CST, RG wrote:

filter system. The 2 barrel could work for me, but it's still a lot
of space taken up.

2' X 4' versus 4'X4' using 4 barrels.

Is there any way to get more efficient filtration using up less
volume?

Not "more" efficient. I'm sure there are smaller filters out there that
will do the same job, such as bead filters. It is a space/time thing. The
bigger the less often you're having to mess with it.

You've got 2 barrels (100 gallons) for a 1000 gallon pond, so
you're at a 1:10 filterond ratio. What do you think of filters like
the Oase Filtoclear 3000? It advertises itself for a 1500 gallon pond
(http://www.pondusa.com/filter3w.htm) and only has a filter volume of
3.7 gallons (so a ratio of 1:405). Are they that far off base? It's
expensive but that's a huge space savings for us cityfolk.
--Rob

I can't tell you much of anything about commercial units, other than Vortex
or Nextus, all of which take up as much space as my own. Hopefully someone
else here has experience with the above filter. I just don't see how 4
gallons is going to last long, and every time one cleans one sets back
biological cycling. Be sure you look at gph that can pass thru it, too slow
and you don't get the desired return to the pond. Too fast and the filter
isn't as efficient, or just can't handle it. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Looking at the filter, I think it would be filled VERY fast by our
pond. It would be nice to hear from someone who has used the unit
with a pond of some size.

Jim

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 23:12:36 CST, Phyllis and Jim
wrote:


Don't do it, buy one piece, even if you get it right, it will always be a
source of worry. So far I've yet to hear of a success story that I
remember.

We joined the liner used in our falls to the liner for the streams.
No leaks yet.

Jim

Joining in streams, not such a problem, but at the bottom of the pond? I'd
worry.

Recently a club owner enlarged her pond, contractor didn't get big enough
liner, seamed it (both pieces brand new) lasted 6 weeks and started
leaking. She had to buy a whole new piece and the contractor had to rip it
out and do over. :-( ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us