Has anyone come across a bottom drain that is fish-proof for anything
over a couple of inches in length?

I just found two fish in my bottom drain filter basket tonight. One is
alive and in my fish hospital. The other was basically shredded. I
think it actually cushioned the other enough that it survived, but
yikes. These were maybe 5"-6" long fish, so not huge, but not
something that should end up in the filter basket.

I've fought with this drain cover for the past two years trying to
make the gap between the pond bottom and the cover narrow enough that
the fish can't enter it. Clearly, there's still a problem.

I have skimmers, so I don't need a cover with a wide opening for large
debris, just small debris and water circulation. Any ideas?

Thanks,

Dave

On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:26:05 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

I just found two fish in my bottom drain filter basket tonight.

I don't have a solution, but I'm just curious what kind of bottom drain you
have that has a filter basket, or is this the basket before an out-of-water
pump?

I too, get fish taking a ride thru the bottom drain. But I drain straight
to the prefilter, so it is just a ride to the barrel where they have to
hang out till I clean the pre-filter.

Last year I think every goldfish went for the ride. Most of the taddies had
ended up there, and I think the first one that I fished out, told the
others there was a feast down the bottom drain, as the next day just about
every one of them was in the prefilter. Amazingly the taddies survived by
hiding in the folds of the filter screening, and the fish gave up the
pursuit, though one always seems to have to go check it out periodically.
This year there will be no taddies in the pre-filter as I'm fishing all the
eggs out. And the one fish who took the ride is finding it is a long wait
back to the pond this year. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

The basket is in the pre-filter of my out of water pump that connects
to my bead filter. It's maybe...40' from the pond drain, so it's a
long ride with an abrupt end. The basket is very small for a large
fish. It's really intended for leaves and such, much like a swimming
pool pre-filter.

You can see it he
http://www.performancepropumps.com/Artesian.htm

I found another fish in there today, by the way. Roughly 6"x3"x1".
Alive, but its fins are a tattered mess like the last one I rescued.

It occurs to me that one solution would might be to have a larger, out
of pump, pre-filter. I'm pretty sure that it's the initial smash and
then the scraping about in the plastic strainer basket that's doing
the most damage, so If there was a separate larger, gentler, pre-
filter basket that they got deposited in, that would work well. Is
your pre-filter separate or part of the pump like this one? I'm
curious what's available out there...

The dead fish was definitely killed before it got to the basket. Based
on what's been coming through the line, it happened somewhere
else. : /

"Pond Addict" wrote in message
...
The basket is in the pre-filter of my out of water pump that connects
to my bead filter. It's maybe...40' from the pond drain, so it's a
long ride with an abrupt end. The basket is very small for a large
fish. It's really intended for leaves and such, much like a swimming
pool pre-filter.

You can see it he
http://www.performancepropumps.com/Artesian.htm

I found another fish in there today, by the way. Roughly 6"x3"x1".
Alive, but its fins are a tattered mess like the last one I rescued.

It occurs to me that one solution would might be to have a larger, out
of pump, pre-filter. I'm pretty sure that it's the initial smash and
then the scraping about in the plastic strainer basket that's doing
the most damage, so If there was a separate larger, gentler, pre-
filter basket that they got deposited in, that would work well. Is
your pre-filter separate or part of the pump like this one? I'm
curious what's available out there...

The dead fish was definitely killed before it got to the basket. Based
on what's been coming through the line, it happened somewhere
else. : /

You really need to get a settlement tank between the bottom drain and the
pump. The commercial ones are vortex filters (which are cone bottomed), but
you can use a 55 gallon drum, These filters catch so much stuff before it
goes through the pump and is pureed. The top of the tank needs to be just
slightly higher than the water level of the pond. The bottom drain pipe
enters about 1/3 of the way from the bottom of the tank with an elbow to
make the water swirl in the tank. The exit pipe to the pump goes out near
the top, preferably at the center. If the exit pipe comes in about 1/2 to
2/3 of the way up, an elbow can be put at the center of the tank facing up
and a verticle pipe installed. This allows adjustment of the height for any
drawdown of the water level due to pipe friction. I cover the verticle pipe
with a piece of hardware cloth or a piece of matala to keep frogs from
taking the ride to the pump. The very bottom of the tank needs a drain to
open to waste or a trash pump to discharge the solids that collect in the
barrel.



--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
Zone 7A/B Virginia

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 10:01:37 EDT, "RichToyBox"
wrote:

The dead fish was definitely killed before it got to the basket. Based
on what's been coming through the line, it happened somewhere
else. : /

You really need to get a settlement tank between the bottom drain and the
pump. The commercial ones are vortex filters (which are cone bottomed), but
you can use a 55 gallon drum,

I so agree with RTB here. To catch fish, perhaps you could put a barrel
somewhere between pond & pump in the 40 foot run of pipe. Ideally though a
vortex filter is WONDERFUL and would make your bio-filter last longer
between cleanings. If I were to win the lotto and build a dream pond it
would be with vortex filters.

As far as my set up. I have a 2 barrel system with a submersible pump on
the lily pond. The water gravity feeds to the pre-filter where the fish
can't travel to the barrel with pump. The koi pond has a 4 barrel system, 2
bio-filters in parallel in the middle, but they're too big to get thru the
bottom drain now.... but I've had eggs travel thru and found as many as
30-50 baby koi happily swimming in the free areas of the filter.

That's the plus side of a pump at the end of the filtration unit, you never
know what surprises will be found in the filter when you go to clean it
(this doesn't work on pressurized units).... but also happens in veggie
filters depending on where the pump is, though I do believe eggs make the
ride thru some pumps at times. YMMV. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

RTB, thanks for the info.

The top of the tank needs to be just slightly higher than the water level of the pond.

Is that the only option? My bottom drain is plumbed running
underground until it gets to the pump, filter & UV in a utility area
in my basement which is below top-of-pond level. There's a drain there
for waste, but again, the area is lower than you're saying. If I had
this outside, I'd need to dig down maybe 6' or so to reach the current
line, cap off the drain in the pond and cut/replumb the line. That's
quite a bit of work, plus it would bring my line above the frost
layer, so freezing would be a problem in the winter (I'm in NH).

Why does it need to be placed above the top of the pond if the water
is being pulled through it by my pump? Can't I just shut off my pump
and close ball valves on either side of the tank in order to inspect/
empty? That's what I'm doing now.

Also, can you see in these types of tanks without opening them? 55
gallons makes me think of a big oil drum. If I had something like
that, I'm not sure I'd even know if fish were in it.

Thanks,

Dave

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:29:59 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

this outside, I'd need to dig down maybe 6' or so to reach the current
line, cap off the drain in the pond and cut/replumb the line.Dave

6' wow. The reason the lip of the barrel is above is so it doesn't spill
over. The level of the pond will be the same in the barrel. A 6' deep
barrel though probably wouldn't do. Interesting idea though to have one
with a lid that wouldn't let the water out, and just needs a periodically
check when the system is off and the bottom drains are plugged (ball
valve).

Perhaps you could put a bigger leak proof container right before the
pre-filter basket? Thus no digging?

Or you may be stuck with keeping larger (or smarter) fish. ;-) Or you could
build some sort of cage over the bottom drains? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Maybe the pipe is 4' below ground at the highest. Oh, I see, the
barrels you're talking about are not sealed ones. Yeah, in hindsight
that or a vortex filter would have been a good design. I suspect I can
find a larger holding tank to put before my pump. I had also thought
of caging the drain cover but I couldn't find a way to do that which
wouldn't clog up or else let the fish in. Then again, large stuff
doesn't really get down to the bottom, so that may be a cheaper
possibility.

I'll look into both of those ideas and see what I can find. Thanks.

Dave

I'm still looking around and have seen some interesting grated drain
covers (much like landscape catch basin grates) which would be a huge
improvement over what I have. I also noticed that some vortex tanks
can be buried, and it sounds like the right sized unit is 4' deep.
Pretty pricy, but it makes me think that there still may be a way to
use a settlement tank of some sort. I need to figure out "pond level"
in the location where I might be able to put a tank. Offhand, I don't
know if that would be ground level, below ground or above ground level
(which I doubt).

What do you do in the winter, though? Our frost layer is about 2'
down, so the top water would definitely freeze up if left to its own.

The barrels you're talking about, are they those plastic ones or
something else? Where do you find them?

Thanks,

Dave

Seems last year I saw hardware cloth that had a plastic coating, that might
work to make a large cage over the drain?

I'm still looking around and have seen some interesting grated drain
covers (much like landscape catch basin grates) which would be a huge
improvement over what I have. I also noticed that some vortex tanks
can be buried, and it sounds like the right sized unit is 4' deep.
Pretty pricy, but it makes me think that there still may be a way to
use a settlement tank of some sort. I need to figure out "pond level"
in the location where I might be able to put a tank. Offhand, I don't
know if that would be ground level, below ground or above ground level
(which I doubt).

What do you do in the winter, though? Our frost layer is about 2'
down, so the top water would definitely freeze up if left to its own.

I drain my barrels in the lily pond and toss a low watt heater in with an
air stone. In the koi ponds I drain one bio-chamber and run the rest with a
slower pump circulating through the ponds, but not running the main
waterfall. In the ground with a covering over the top seems to keep them
ice free. I'm in Zone 7 though.

The barrels you're talking about, are they those plastic ones or
something else? Where do you find them? Dave

Plastic. Used to hold juice, car wash soap or that blue stuff for toilets.
I'm not sure what my first 4 held, as we got them clean from a salvage
yard. The lily pond ones held the blue stuff for chemical toilets. If from
a car wash you'd sure want to power wash them I would think. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

I was looking at the construction pictures of my pond, and there may
be another location where I could install settlement tanks near the
pond.

One thing I guess I'm not clear on is how large a tank I'd need. It
seems like a lot of vortex filter vendors size by pond size, but it
appears that the pump draw is the main concern for sizing. I'm pulling
about 7500 gph. Any idea how large a container I'd need to not drain
the settlement tank?

I still want to do something with the bottom drain, but this seems
like a good summer project as well.

Thanks,

Dave

On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 22:01:39 EDT, Pond Addict
wrote:

One thing I guess I'm not clear on is how large a tank I'd need. It
seems like a lot of vortex filter vendors size by pond size, but it
appears that the pump draw is the main concern for sizing. I'm pulling
about 7500 gph. Any idea how large a container I'd need to not drain
the settlement tank?

Dave

You mean as far as running flow thru it? Water tight or open?

Seems as long as your pipe size in and out, the water in the barrel is
going to stay level with the pond regardless of flow. Unless you're
thinking now of using it for a settlement chamber versus just a fish
catching basin? I think my sister runs at least that much flow, if not
more, thru her vortex filters, she has the mid size. ~ jan

------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

Sorry, yeah I'm all over the place with the ideas on this thread.

Right, I was thinking of adding a fish catching basin+settlement tank,
open and pond-side, rather than a sealed tank by the pump. That would
save having to carry critters out of the basement, and would give me a
chance to add a bottom drain shutoff valve outside which I kind of
wish I had, rather than just the pump area ones. Of course the digging
4-6' down is a drag, but I'm focusing on design rather than my back at
the moment.

Basically, I don't want to end up pulling so much with the pump that
there's no settlement occurring. It seems to me like a good approach
would be to have a "fish catching basin" that feeds in a fish-proof
way to a settlement tank/vortex rather than combining the two into
one. Or doesn't it much matter?

Dave

I have two ponds. Each has a vortex filter. One has the W Lim large vortex
and one sequence pump pumping about 3500 gallons and it works well. The
exit pipe on this one has a piece of hardware cloth covering the exit pipe
to keep frogs from taking the ride to the pump. The other has a different
vortex, about the same size and has two sequence pumps, handling about 2
times the flow and it does not provide enough settlement time. This one I
use a piece of Matala to cover the exit pipe and it collects a lot of the
algae and other debris before it goes to the pumps. There are a couple of
microstrainers out there that are pressure washed from the inside to keep it
a hands free cleaning, supposedly, but I think they are more than I want to
spend. I have had small fish take the ride to the vortes filters, but a
small net gets them out and back to the pond. I don't think that I have had
one make the trip twice.

--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html
Zone 7A/B Virginia
"Pond Addict" wrote in message
...
Sorry, yeah I'm all over the place with the ideas on this thread.

Right, I was thinking of adding a fish catching basin+settlement tank,
open and pond-side, rather than a sealed tank by the pump. That would
save having to carry critters out of the basement, and would give me a
chance to add a bottom drain shutoff valve outside which I kind of
wish I had, rather than just the pump area ones. Of course the digging
4-6' down is a drag, but I'm focusing on design rather than my back at
the moment.

Basically, I don't want to end up pulling so much with the pump that
there's no settlement occurring. It seems to me like a good approach
would be to have a "fish catching basin" that feeds in a fish-proof
way to a settlement tank/vortex rather than combining the two into
one. Or doesn't it much matter?

Dave

On Sat, 3 May 2008 11:14:01 EDT, "RichToyBox"
wrote:

I have two ponds. Each has a vortex filter. One has the W Lim large vortex
and one sequence pump pumping about 3500 gallons and it works well. The
exit pipe on this one has a piece of hardware cloth covering the exit pipe
to keep frogs from taking the ride to the pump. The other has a different
vortex, about the same size and has two sequence pumps, handling about 2
times the flow and it does not provide enough settlement time. This one I
use a piece of Matala to cover the exit pipe and it collects a lot of the
algae and other debris before it goes to the pumps. There are a couple of
microstrainers out there that are pressure washed from the inside to keep it
a hands free cleaning, supposedly, but I think they are more than I want to
spend. I have had small fish take the ride to the vortes filters, but a
small net gets them out and back to the pond. I don't think that I have had
one make the trip twice.

RTB, if Dave got the largest vortex would just the swirl drop the solids
using the 7500 gph pump? Or do you think a piece of course matala hung
vertical would be wise? This would stop the fish and solids and probably
wouldn't need cleaning all that often. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us