Hi all
(There is a question at the end of all this 'background')
Several weeks ago I asked for help on a fish problem. In short I tried to
describe SOME fish with dandruff type appearance, bloody backs, long tail
splitting then beginning fin rot symptoms and mentioned a heron hanging
around, missing fish, but no actual siteing of the bird at the pond.

A pond group member, studying to become a koi advisor came by. Unable to
catch a fish the first time I only treated with 2 .1% salt applications and
one prescribed application of Melafix and draped a seine net over part of
pond for protection. By the time the friend returned in 3 days the 'bloody
backs' had dissappeared almost over night. I had wondered about my
description as the coloration was a very dark red and I actually had one
shubunkin who seemed much redder than the predominately blue it normally
was. The fish did seem a bit more active and no further deterioration
seemed to be happening. She did scrape the two fish and found nothing
except for a few paramecium, although she did disclaim her findings due to
1)not lots of experience and 2)40X scope. I pretty much decided things were
okay and it and it was probably just 'spring crud' which was now subsiding.

Since then several things have happened. One larger koi was apparently
jabbed by the heron as there was an obvious deep puncture (though not
completely through) and I had to put him down about 24 hours later. On two
consecutive days I also found 1 -5" comet floating with no obvious signs off
problems (other than the obvious. This may be totally unrelated to any
other problems I have been having. Though I was too lazy to get up at dawn
to verify, I suspect O2 deprivation, as the weather has recently turned very
warm, I am having some algae bloom and I HAD bunches of submerged plants. I
removed quite a few of the plants, but certainly far from all. Since then
everything seems to be improving. No more death, all 'dandruff' problems
have dissappeared and fins may be repairing already, definitely not getting
worse.

I would not be writing, except possibly to thank everyone for their help
were it not for one concern. And again I may be overreacting. One of the
two comets which I 'caught' had a small bump on it's back. At the top of
the bump but not in the middle was a dark brown 'thing'. It does not have
any particular shape and at least now is not on the surface. My friend said
it was not lice, but didn't want to poke and prode at it. It almost looks
like a small scrape which has a small brown covering over the scrap. I'm
not saying it is a scrap, it just reminds me of a very small scrab over a
scrape, except it is not on the surface and appears smooth. This fish is
still in the quarantine tank and I have seen no change in it. Perhaps I am
just now noticing them but one or two fish in the pond also have this. One
I have been able to see several times. Again using my scrap analogy it
appears the same (I have not captured it) although the 'scrap' would be one
1/2 inch abrasion follow by three or four progressively smaller ones. These
are much narrower than the 'spot' on the top of the quarantined comet.

So at long last - does this sound like something I should be concerned
about - or just watch and see. I am very sorry to be sooooooo long, but I
just never know what to include and omit. The water parameters are constant
and perfect and yes Carol I did do 1 25% water change before I added the
salt

Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas

"humBill" wrote in message
et...
So at long last - does this sound like something I should be concerned
about - or just watch and see. I am very sorry to be sooooooo long, but I
just never know what to include and omit. The water parameters are
constant and perfect and yes Carol I did do 1 25% water change before I
added the salt
================
I'll tell you what I wound do - others may agree or disagree. With these
ongoing things happening I would remove all the fish and CLEAN this pond out
completely. Remove all the muck and plants and refill. Treat all the
plants with something like Potassium Permanganate at double the recommended
dose for several hours. First let the pots drain so they soak up the PP
when you dunk them. Check the fish individually and make sure they're not
harboring lice or some other parasite. Treat wounds. I clean them with
Peroxide on a cotton-ball then apply Methiolate or something similar. Some
people recommend you put an antibiotic cream on the injury. Treat them and
return them all to the pond. You may want to treat for parasites with
something like Quick-Cure or another broad range parasite killer. If herons
are a problem then NET your pond. They're not the only thing that can take
bites from your fish. I have a BF koi that lost a good part of her tail to
a huge bullfrog several years ago.
--
Koi-Lo.... the ReelMcKoi
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Thanks Carol
I have printed out your suggestion as it sounds like a good one for a broad
brush approach. I am hesitant to go that extreme right now as I do have a
heavy fishload. I do have two upflow filters but especially just coming
into feeding season I would be very concerned about how much my nitrifying
balance relies on the many pots and surfaces, which would be wiped out with
such a treatment. I also understood, perhaps incorrectly that even the
bypassed, full of water filters will begin to die after 4 hours, which an
adequate treatment of PP would require. I would have reservations as well
about my suspended algae. With my hot Texas full sun exposure, it took me
most of my first year (now on my third) to get the pond balanced and
consistently relatively clear. All that being said as mentioned I will keep
your suggestion to perhaps work up to, as needed basis.

Carol I must say you are an enigma. I hold your thoughts and helpfulness in
esteem and appreciation. You have given me many helpful suggestions and
seem to be ever helpful and present. I do have a small kiddie pond which is
very similar to a suggestion you made 2 summers ago, as Windsong. Which is
why I am perpetually confused as to why you seem to be in the midst of many
of these 'OT'ers' who have nearly ruined this once terrific pond resource.
I mean no disrespect and a 'explanation' is not expected. It's just
curious.

Thanks again for all your suggestions
Bill Brister

"Koi-Lo" wrote in message
...

"humBill" wrote in message
et...
So at long last - does this sound like something I should be concerned
about - or just watch and see. I am very sorry to be sooooooo long, but
I just never know what to include and omit. The water parameters are
constant and perfect and yes Carol I did do 1 25% water change before I
added the salt
================
I'll tell you what I wound do - others may agree or disagree. With these
ongoing things happening I would remove all the fish and CLEAN this pond
out completely. Remove all the muck and plants and refill. Treat all the
plants with something like Potassium Permanganate at double the
recommended dose for several hours. First let the pots drain so they soak
up the PP when you dunk them. Check the fish individually and make sure
they're not harboring lice or some other parasite. Treat wounds. I clean
them with Peroxide on a cotton-ball then apply Methiolate or something
similar. Some people recommend you put an antibiotic cream on the injury.
Treat them and return them all to the pond. You may want to treat for
parasites with something like Quick-Cure or another broad range parasite
killer. If herons are a problem then NET your pond. They're not the only
thing that can take bites from your fish. I have a BF koi that lost a
good part of her tail to a huge bullfrog several years ago.
--
Koi-Lo.... the ReelMcKoi
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"humBill" wrote in message
t...
Thanks Carol
I have printed out your suggestion as it sounds like a good one for a
broad brush approach. I am hesitant to go that extreme right now as I do
have a heavy fishload.

And your heavy fish load could be adding to the problems. It's breaking my
heart but this weekend, weather permitting, we're draining and removing a
lot of koi in the 2000g pond. Some I've had for 7 years now but a heavy fish
load is not healthy for the fish. Water quality starts to suffer, then the
fish develop problems. So some have to go. You may consider thinning your
fish as well. Keep your favorites and sell or give away the rest. It's
much better for the fish.

I do have two upflow filters but especially just coming
into feeding season I would be very concerned about how much my nitrifying
balance relies on the many pots and surfaces, which would be wiped out
with such a treatment.

A lot will be wiped out, that's another reason why you need to cull your
fish every year or so as they grow and multiply. There are only so many
surfaces to house the needed bacteria. After refilling the pond watch your
ammonia and nitrites and FEED LIGHTLY for a week or two!!! All the bacteria
will not be killed and will rapidly multiply.

I also understood, perhaps incorrectly that even the
bypassed, full of water filters will begin to die after 4 hours, which an
adequate treatment of PP would require.

When there a problem in a pond which may be parasites why byass the filter?
There could be parasites or their "eggs" in the filter. What's the use of
cleaning and treating the pond of the parasites are righ back when you turn
the pumps back on?

I would have reservations as well
about my suspended algae. With my hot Texas full sun exposure, it took
me most of my first year (now on my third) to get the pond balanced and
consistently relatively clear. All that being said as mentioned I will
keep your suggestion to perhaps work up to, as needed basis.

In the meantime clean the bottom as well as you can and find out if you have
a parasite problem for sure. Your friend didn't sound too sure if your fish
were infested or not.

Carol I must say you are an enigma. I hold your thoughts and helpfulness
in esteem and appreciation. You have given me many helpful suggestions
and seem to be ever helpful and present. I do have a small kiddie pond
which is very similar to a suggestion you made 2 summers ago, as Windsong.
Which is why I am perpetually confused as to why you seem to be in the
midst of many of these 'OT'ers' who have nearly ruined this once terrific
pond resource.

I mean no disrespect and a 'explanation' is not expected. It's just
curious.

As a poster here you are owed an explanation. The problem is a person I
know on another NG for 10 years. When he succeeded in hounding several
other women he didn't like off Usenet, puffed up with power and inflated
ego, he decided I was the next to go. But this is an open forum and no one
decides who gets to post and who doesn't. However he found I wasn't as easy
to terrorize off the NGs as the other women were, and so he lost face. I'm
not leaving as they did so he must prove himself by forcing me to leave one
way or the other, at any cost to himself or others. He said he would
destroy this NG and he's been trying for months. Since Google allows all
forms of abuse of Usenet there is little anyone can do to remove this
cross-posting, nym-stealing net-stalker. As for his threatening my life,
the police in both states have all the information in case Mr. Santana
decides to act on his murderous fantasies of suffocating me or cutting my
throat "in the middle of the night" as he's threatened.......

Thanks again for all your suggestions
Bill Brister

Good luck with your fish Bill. Keep us updated on what happens with them.
--
Koi-Lo.... the ReelMcKoi
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two Koi-Lo's on the Aquaria Groups.*
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

Hi Bill, since you've had a KHA come by that did a scrape & scope, not find
anything, and being how many problems have cleared up. I'd go with the wait
and see.

What have you done to prevent the heron from coming back? ~ jan

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 17:52:14 GMT, "humBill" wrote:

Hi all
(There is a question at the end of all this 'background')
Several weeks ago I asked for help on a fish problem. In short I tried to
describe SOME fish with dandruff type appearance, bloody backs, long tail
splitting then beginning fin rot symptoms and mentioned a heron hanging
around, missing fish, but no actual siteing of the bird at the pond.

A pond group member, studying to become a koi advisor came by. Unable to
catch a fish the first time I only treated with 2 .1% salt applications and
one prescribed application of Melafix and draped a seine net over part of
pond for protection. By the time the friend returned in 3 days the 'bloody
backs' had dissappeared almost over night. I had wondered about my
description as the coloration was a very dark red and I actually had one
shubunkin who seemed much redder than the predominately blue it normally
was. The fish did seem a bit more active and no further deterioration
seemed to be happening. She did scrape the two fish and found nothing
except for a few paramecium, although she did disclaim her findings due to
1)not lots of experience and 2)40X scope. I pretty much decided things were
okay and it and it was probably just 'spring crud' which was now subsiding.

Since then several things have happened. One larger koi was apparently
jabbed by the heron as there was an obvious deep puncture (though not
completely through) and I had to put him down about 24 hours later. On two
consecutive days I also found 1 -5" comet floating with no obvious signs off
problems (other than the obvious. This may be totally unrelated to any
other problems I have been having. Though I was too lazy to get up at dawn
to verify, I suspect O2 deprivation, as the weather has recently turned very
warm, I am having some algae bloom and I HAD bunches of submerged plants. I
removed quite a few of the plants, but certainly far from all. Since then
everything seems to be improving. No more death, all 'dandruff' problems
have dissappeared and fins may be repairing already, definitely not getting
worse.

I would not be writing, except possibly to thank everyone for their help
were it not for one concern. And again I may be overreacting. One of the
two comets which I 'caught' had a small bump on it's back. At the top of
the bump but not in the middle was a dark brown 'thing'. It does not have
any particular shape and at least now is not on the surface. My friend said
it was not lice, but didn't want to poke and prode at it. It almost looks
like a small scrape which has a small brown covering over the scrap. I'm
not saying it is a scrap, it just reminds me of a very small scrab over a
scrape, except it is not on the surface and appears smooth. This fish is
still in the quarantine tank and I have seen no change in it. Perhaps I am
just now noticing them but one or two fish in the pond also have this. One
I have been able to see several times. Again using my scrap analogy it
appears the same (I have not captured it) although the 'scrap' would be one
1/2 inch abrasion follow by three or four progressively smaller ones. These
are much narrower than the 'spot' on the top of the quarantined comet.

So at long last - does this sound like something I should be concerned
about - or just watch and see. I am very sorry to be sooooooo long, but I
just never know what to include and omit. The water parameters are constant
and perfect and yes Carol I did do 1 25% water change before I added the
salt

Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas


-----------------
(Do you know where your water quality is?)

OK... "dandruff" is the slime coat shedding
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/disease/technique/technique.html#Jo_Ann's_Fish_Physical
notice the part on slime coat. both parasites and toxins cause the slime coat to
thicken and slough off. If the gills of the fish are bright cherry red, then it is
more likely to be parasites best treated in cold water with PP. UNLESS the fish
appears "salted", then it is probably ich and use quick cure or the like. reddish
"rash" is how a koi with ich looks.
with dark gills a serious water change, salting to 0.1% is good for the first 24
hours. NO medications, and dont use melafix .. ever.
you will need to keep your pond netted to keep out the birds. no way around it.
It could be the heron in there fishing caused serious stress brought this on. Ingrid

"humBill" wrote:
Several weeks ago I asked for help on a fish problem. In short I tried to
describe SOME fish with dandruff type appearance, bloody backs, long tail
splitting then beginning fin rot symptoms and mentioned a heron hanging
around,

A pond group member, studying to become a koi advisor came by. Unable to
catch a fish the first time I only treated with 2 .1% salt applications and
one prescribed application of Melafix and draped a seine net over part of
pond for protection. By the time the friend returned in 3 days the 'bloody
backs' had dissappeared almost over night. I had wondered about my
description as the coloration was a very dark red and I actually had one
shubunkin who seemed much redder than the predominately blue it normally
was. The fish did seem a bit more active and no further deterioration
seemed to be happening. She did scrape the two fish and found nothing
except for a few paramecium, although she did disclaim her findings due to
1)not lots of experience and 2)40X scope. I pretty much decided things were
okay and it and it was probably just 'spring crud' which was now subsiding.

Since then several things have happened. One larger koi was apparently
jabbed by the heron as there was an obvious deep puncture (though not
completely through) and I had to put him down about 24 hours later. On two
consecutive days I also found 1 -5" comet floating with no obvious signs off
problems (other than the obvious. This may be totally unrelated to any
other problems I have been having. Though I was too lazy to get up at dawn
to verify, I suspect O2 deprivation, as the weather has recently turned very
warm, I am having some algae bloom and I HAD bunches of submerged plants. I
removed quite a few of the plants, but certainly far from all. Since then
everything seems to be improving. No more death, all 'dandruff' problems
have dissappeared and fins may be repairing already, definitely not getting
worse.

I would not be writing, except possibly to thank everyone for their help
were it not for one concern. And again I may be overreacting. One of the
two comets which I 'caught' had a small bump on it's back. At the top of
the bump but not in the middle was a dark brown 'thing'. It does not have
any particular shape and at least now is not on the surface. My friend said
it was not lice, but didn't want to poke and prode at it. It almost looks
like a small scrape which has a small brown covering over the scrap. I'm
not saying it is a scrap, it just reminds me of a very small scrab over a
scrape, except it is not on the surface and appears smooth. This fish is
still in the quarantine tank and I have seen no change in it. Perhaps I am
just now noticing them but one or two fish in the pond also have this. One
I have been able to see several times. Again using my scrap analogy it
appears the same (I have not captured it) although the 'scrap' would be one
1/2 inch abrasion follow by three or four progressively smaller ones. These
are much narrower than the 'spot' on the top of the quarantined comet.

So at long last - does this sound like something I should be concerned
about - or just watch and see. I am very sorry to be sooooooo long, but I
just never know what to include and omit. The water parameters are constant
and perfect and yes Carol I did do 1 25% water change before I added the
salt

Thanxx
Bill Brister - Austin, Texas




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

PP doesnt kill established filters.
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/d....htm#POTASSIUM
Use a STOCK SOLUTION so there is no burning even if the fish swim thru it. use as
recommended above. clear with peroxide.
dont feed the day before and after a treatment just to make sure there isnt an
ammonia spike.
but dont treat at all unless it is really needed.
Ingrid

"humBill" wrote:

Thanks Carol
I have printed out your suggestion as it sounds like a good one for a broad
brush approach. I am hesitant to go that extreme right now as I do have a
heavy fishload. I do have two upflow filters but especially just coming
into feeding season I would be very concerned about how much my nitrifying
balance relies on the many pots and surfaces, which would be wiped out with
such a treatment. I also understood, perhaps incorrectly that even the
bypassed, full of water filters will begin to die after 4 hours, which an
adequate treatment of PP would require. I would have reservations as well
about my suspended algae. With my hot Texas full sun exposure, it took me
most of my first year (now on my third) to get the pond balanced and
consistently relatively clear. All that being said as mentioned I will keep
your suggestion to perhaps work up to, as needed basis.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan