I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built shelves
200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small dam
to retain the soil.

Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?

thanks

Davy

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:02:48 +0100, Davy wrote:

I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built shelves
200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small dam
to retain the soil.

Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?

I think it's reasonable but I would use gravel instead of soil. It's
far less likely to float away and it will clog up with bits of wind
blown soil in time anyway but will be more stable. Like any plants they
will need tending such as weeding and cutting/pulling back and that
should be easier if they are in gravel.

Adding some sloping edge to the pond will help frogs, toads and newts
to exit the pond when they wish. Toads and newts tend to use ponds just
for breeding and spend much of their lives in the surrounding ground
out of the pond.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

"Davy" wrote in message
...
I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built
shelves
200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small
dam
to retain the soil.

Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?
=========================
I tried that in our original pond. Never again. When it came time to thin
out the plants they were one solid mass. The soil had become waterborne and
with the algae the filter pad clogged constantly. We pulled the whole mass
out in sections and now all the plants are in pots. It controls their
growth and they're easy to prune, repot and/or move around.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

I assume you are UK based since you use metric dimensions.
My wildlife pond is plants, planted loose, in soil, straight over the liner with the exception of where there are large folds, there I put a flat layer of plastic over the liner so that the roots cant get into the fold. Personally I am very pleased with the result.
What Koi-lo says about the roots growing all together is true but, with the exception of reeds (possibly norfolk reed) and Typha latifolia, reedmace or cattails (frequently incorrectly called bull rush) that doesnt bother me, I should have potted the reeds and cattails in solid containers.
Re making it animal friendly, I would suggest that you ramp the soil on the shelf so that it breaks the surface within an inch or so of the edge of the pond, if you dont want it breaking the surface then bring it to within 1/2" or slightly less of the surface. My shallow shelf is about 2" to the liner and the soil breaks the surface, I think it would have been deeper to the liner with a suitably thicker layer of soil.
If you are UK and you want fish I would stock the pond with either minnows or sticklebacks, my stickle backs jumped into a suitable container whilst I was walking in a feeder stream for a local resevoir.

DO NOT add the plant Tillaea recurva, Crassula helmsii, australian stone crop, http://www.arghamvillage.co.uk/produ...ails/9211.html its chuffing invasive and can smother more desirable plants

My pond is not filtered but there is a pump driving a small stream. I do not feed the fish in the pond apart from once in a blue moon with any mosquito larvae I find elsewhere in the garden.
If you do like wise then until the higher plants become established expect the pond to be thick with blanket weed but since the end of my first season I have not had any blanket weed. I added the floater azolla during the first summer and that thrived but again since the higher plants became established the azolla barely ticks over and I would doubt it I have more than 6" square of it. If you use azolla during your first season and harvest any of it COMPOST the crop do NOT throw it out. I would suggest you harvest it once you see it start to turn red, it can die off and sink rather quickly and in another pond which was totally covered by a thick layer of it the decaying material on the bottom of the pond could be smelt in the air around the pond and would probably kill any animal life in there.

My pond is surrounded by turf, small amphibians, in my case froglets, can stick to hot dry concrete and probably rocks, they will then dehydrate and die. The only way they can be released with out skinning them is to soak the concrete with water.

How are you thinking of 'land scaping' around your pond?
What plants are you thinking of? Lilies my be inadvisable depending on how wild you want your pond to be, they may not like winter and early sppring competition for light whilst 'running' on over wintering pads. I suggest you stick largely to native plants.

I would use larger stones, not just gravel. build it and the dirt will come. there
is no way to prevent the accumulation of dirt in a pond except by removing it
mechanically. Ingrid


"Rodney Pont" wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:02:48 +0100, Davy wrote:

I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built shelves
200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small dam
to retain the soil.

Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?

I think it's reasonable but I would use gravel instead of soil. It's
far less likely to float away and it will clog up with bits of wind
blown soil in time anyway but will be more stable. Like any plants they
will need tending such as weeding and cutting/pulling back and that
should be easier if they are in gravel.

Adding some sloping edge to the pond will help frogs, toads and newts
to exit the pond when they wish. Toads and newts tend to use ponds just
for breeding and spend much of their lives in the surrounding ground
out of the pond.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
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www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan

So Koi-Lo strongly recommends against planting straight into gravel/soil
because the roots become matted and the whole substrate needs to be taken up
when doing the plant maintenance; whilst Sean McKinney says it is not a
problem (but doesn't elaborate on why it is not a problem).

Any other views on the basket/earth issue for wildlife ponds? At the moment
I am leaning to planting in gravel because a new 16 sq m pond will need a
lot of baskets (?) and because baskets might make the planting not look too
formal (?).

cheers

Davy

"Davy" wrote in message
...
I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built
shelves
200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large and
will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small
dam
to retain the soil.

Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?

thanks

Davy

"Davy" wrote in message
...
So Koi-Lo strongly recommends against planting straight into gravel/soil
because the roots become matted and the whole substrate needs to be taken
up
when doing the plant maintenance; whilst Sean McKinney says it is not a
problem (but doesn't elaborate on why it is not a problem).

Perhaps he and I used different plants. We had one section about 12' long
that was a solid smelly, mulm filled, very heavy strip of plants that were a
real problem to remove. We had to be careful not to cut into the liner as
we tried to cut them into manageable sections. We both said "Never again!"

Any other views on the basket/earth issue for wildlife ponds? At the
moment
I am leaning to planting in gravel because a new 16 sq m pond will need a
lot of baskets (?) and because baskets might make the planting not look
too
formal (?).

If you don't plan to ever cleaning out your pond or having to cull out
excess fish and plants, then go for it! :-)
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

I didnt elaborate because I didnt think it was necessary, I wish to simulate a natural pond and to me that is the effect I appear to be achieving, if I wish to thin things out I accept that it will be awkward and that is the price I will have to pay but so far the only plant I regret is the crassula.
I am in no way disagreeing with Loi-lo, what they say is correct but to me a pond with everything potted is not a natural pond and a natural pond has mulm and all sorts of things lying around the bottom, plus, the fish in there, ie stickle backs, have evolved for such ponds.

I think the big objection of ponders to soil, loose or otherwise, is that it is a source of nutrients for algae growth but my wildlife pond would seem to show that if the pond is left to its own devices these nutrients are 'soon' locked up in other life forms or deep within the soil. Pure floaters, eg duckweed, azolla and frogbit do not prosper in my wildlife pond nor does blanket weed or green water algae, the only things that grow well are rooted plants or floaters with well rooted tethers eg water soldiers.
I like frogbit and have moved it to my fishpond and it has taken off in there.

Re gravel shelves, I would suggest that a gravel bed wild life pond where nutrients, ie fish food, are not added would be perhaps to nutrient deficient to sustain a good plant growth. I have gravel bed shelves in my fish pond but there the nutrients are derived from the 'processed' fish food and btw the gravel beds are showing signs of turning into solid root clumps in much the same way as the soil beds have in the wildlife pond but at a somewhat slower rate than the soil beds in my wildlife pond. I have just shifted some year old gravel bed rooted plants around and the sediment that settles to the bottom of a gravel bed does stink etc, probably to that same degree that I would find in the soil of my wildlife pond. One thing is apparent however, a fully rooted gravel bed will be a darn sight harder to manage that a fully rooted soil bed, the gravel makes cutting the bed into sections 'awkward'.

So Koi-Lo strongly recommends against planting straight into gravel/soil
because the roots become matted and the whole substrate needs to be taken up
when doing the plant maintenance; whilst Sean McKinney says it is not a
problem (but doesn't elaborate on why it is not a problem).

Any other views on the basket/earth issue for wildlife ponds? At the moment
I am leaning to planting in gravel because a new 16 sq m pond will need a
lot of baskets (?) and because baskets might make the planting not look too
formal (?). Davy

Seems to me... in your situation, matting might be a good thing. It would
keep the shelf area firm if there are any sort of 4 footed wildlife you are
trying to attract. They'd knock over baskets. ~ jan www.jjspond.us
-----------------

Also ponding troll free at:
http://groups.google.com/group/The-Freshwater-Aquarium

Rodney,

OK so gravel it is rather than earth. But will I need to add some soil to
the gravel at first to get the plants growing or can water plants grow in
clean gravel?

thanks

Davy

"Rodney Pont" wrote in message
news:atcfzvasbuvgflfgrzfygqhx.j36gwv0.pminews@ouse ...
On Sat, 29 Jul 2006 11:02:48 +0100, Davy wrote:

I am constructing a 16 sq m butyl-lined wildlife pond. I have built
shelves
200mm (8") deep and 500 (18")mm wide. Because the pond is quite large
and
will need many marginal plants I intend to plant direct into soil on the
shelves. I will try to shape the soil under the butyl to provide a small
dam
to retain the soil.

Is this reasonable? Any recommendations?

I think it's reasonable but I would use gravel instead of soil. It's
far less likely to float away and it will clog up with bits of wind
blown soil in time anyway but will be more stable. Like any plants they
will need tending such as weeding and cutting/pulling back and that
should be easier if they are in gravel.

Adding some sloping edge to the pond will help frogs, toads and newts
to exit the pond when they wish. Toads and newts tend to use ponds just
for breeding and spend much of their lives in the surrounding ground
out of the pond.

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

Davy wrote:

OK so gravel it is rather than earth. But will I need to add some soil to
the gravel at first to get the plants growing or can water plants grow in
clean gravel?

_Many_ (but not all) water plants can grow without soil. I tie my lilies to
a rock, and drop them in - they don't have gravel or soil. Cattails and
irises do fine without soil. With plants I'm not sure about, I'll try some
bare-root and some in soil and see what does better.
--
derek

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:35:41 +0100, Davy wrote:

Rodney,

OK so gravel it is rather than earth. But will I need to add some soil to
the gravel at first to get the plants growing or can water plants grow in
clean gravel?

It's entirely up to you. I don't and things grow well enough. I can't
say if they would grow any better in soil but it does make life easier
not having to worry about it floating around :-)

--
Regards - Rodney Pont
The from address exists but is mostly dumped,
please send any emails to the address below
e-mail ngpsm4 (at) infohitsystems (dot) ltd (dot) uk

this is a WILDLIFE POND (for those talking about "cleaning")
they will grow in clean gravel or rocks.


"Davy" wrote:

Rodney,

OK so gravel it is rather than earth. But will I need to add some soil to
the gravel at first to get the plants growing or can water plants grow in
clean gravel?

thanks

Davy


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List at
http://weloveteaching.com/puregold/
sign up: http://groups.google.com/groups/dir?...s=Group+lookup
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I receive no compensation for running the Puregold list or Puregold website.
I do not run nor receive any money from the ads at the old Puregold site.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Zone 5 next to Lake Michigan