I'm establishing a new pond. It has a small stream about forty feet
long, river rock mortared in, with gravel bottom, and four small (a
few inch each) falls. Right now, it's not so much a pond as a fifty
gallon tub at the bottom of the stream, until I get around to digging
the actual pond. I'm running several hundred gallons per hour through
the stream (it's primarily for a pleasant sound effect outside the
bedroom window for now), so I'm turning the system over several times
per hour.

The cement and mortar are several months old now, and I've changed the
water a couple times, so I suspect that the lime is mostly leached out
by now. I know there's a good biofilter situation going on
(presumable in the stream bed), because for the last week, I've put
pure ammonia into it, spiking it up to several parts per million, and
it's back down to zero within a day or so, with a corresponding
increase and decrease in nitrites. The ph is a little high (near 8)
but when I add acid to take it down, it goes back up again within a
day or so.

Anyway, I decided to try some feeders in it. I put in eight
yesterday, and as of now, three of them were floating. I don't see
the others (but it's a shaded area, with a fall into it creating
turbulence, so I wouldn't necessarily). Anyway, three out of eight
dying in one day sounds like more than normal mortality to me.

What should I be looking for? Is it possible that it's just too high
a turnover rate, and the pump suction in such a small volume is wiping
them out?

The problem with that theory is that before I cemented in the rocks,
and was just running it with a liner, I kept fish in the tub with no
problems (though they did die from other causes (e.g., an overflow
when I wasn't home that flooded the yard and then stranded them).

Or perhaps I didn't give them long enough to stabilize temperature
before releasing them from the bag, and they're shocked (I gave it
over an hour)?

Anything else I should check?

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
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In the last chapter: Rand Simberg picked up the keyboard and pecked
out:
:: I'm establishing a new pond. It has a small stream about forty
:: feet long, river rock mortared in, with gravel bottom, and four
:: small (a
:: few inch each) falls. Right now, it's not so much a pond as a
:: fifty gallon tub at the bottom of the stream,
========================
Fighting the turbulence and the suction from the pump is probably doing them
in. They die of exhaustion. Please remove the rest or shut down the
pump/use a much smaller pump.
--
Carol.......
"Beat the 5 o'clock rush - leave work at noon."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~{@

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:05:13 -0500, in a place far, far away, "~
Windsong ~" made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

Fighting the turbulence and the suction from the pump is probably doing them
in. They die of exhaustion.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of.

I guess I should just wait until I complete the big pond before I put
in any fish. I don't want to shut down or downsize the pumps, because
it's a nice flow sonically, and it's what I plan once the full pond
goes in (which will be about a one-hour turnover).

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
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Rand Simberg wrote:
snip
The cement and mortar are several months old now, and I've changed the
water a couple times, so I suspect that the lime is mostly leached out
by now. I know there's a good biofilter situation going on
(presumable in the stream bed), because for the last week, I've put
pure ammonia into it, spiking it up to several parts per million, and
it's back down to zero within a day or so, with a corresponding
increase and decrease in nitrites. The ph is a little high (near 8)
but when I add acid to take it down, it goes back up again within a
day or so.
Look to the lime in your mortor if you are running at 8.o and rebounding
that hard it is being buffered by the the mortar. What is your Tap water
pH??? I would bet it is 1 or 2 points lower and I will guarentee your
supplier is running a lot lower especially in thier feeder tanks where
you have a huge bioload and a lot of organic material.

Your pH is shocking them. You have a couple fixes. First is dig your
larger pond. The extra volume will dilute the buffers and allow the ph
to stablize. Do many many water changes to remove the disolved minerals.
When ph rebound stops you know you have reached that stable state.
Aclimate the golds to a higher ph level. Do this by placing them in a
holding tank and slowly drive the ph up over about a week. Over the long
term this may or maynot work 8.0 is very alkaline for them but it has
been done.



--
JSin
Lost Generation Custom Tattoo
To reply Kill the idiot

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:53:05 -0700, in a place far, far away, JSin
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

Look to the lime in your mortor if you are running at 8.o and rebounding
that hard it is being buffered by the the mortar. What is your Tap water
pH???

It's the same, as best as I can tell from a color test (don't have a
meter--a tad over 8, maybe as high as 8.2.

I would bet it is 1 or 2 points lower and I will guarentee your
supplier is running a lot lower especially in thier feeder tanks where
you have a huge bioload and a lot of organic material.

Well, the new pond and the tap are the same, as far as I can tell. My
healthy patio pond (that is replenished regularly from the tap) is
7.6.

But as you say, the fact that it rebounds so quickly from the acid
does indicate a lot of continuing buffering. I'll have to go out and
get a KH test kit, I guess, to really know what's going on.

I've never tried running vinegar over the mortar. Would that help?

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
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Here's my email address for autospammers:

Rand Simberg wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:53:05 -0700, in a place far, far away, JSin
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:


Look to the lime in your mortor if you are running at 8.o and rebounding
that hard it is being buffered by the the mortar. What is your Tap water
pH???


It's the same, as best as I can tell from a color test (don't have a
meter--a tad over 8, maybe as high as 8.2.

That is high out of the tap. Looks like you may have some fun with
aclimation. You might request a water report from your water system and
see what it is leaving thier pumping station at for ph.


I would bet it is 1 or 2 points lower and I will guarentee your
supplier is running a lot lower especially in thier feeder tanks where
you have a huge bioload and a lot of organic material.

Check with your supplier for their ph as well. This will give you an
idea of what you will need to do to keep the critters happy as you give
them a new home.


Well, the new pond and the tap are the same, as far as I can tell. My
healthy patio pond (that is replenished regularly from the tap) is
7.6.
I would guess the organics in the older pond are buffering down.. This
is a good thing. 7.6 is well within range for your golds.

But as you say, the fact that it rebounds so quickly from the acid
does indicate a lot of continuing buffering. I'll have to go out and
get a KH test kit, I guess, to really know what's going on.

Total water hardness would be another test to get they are dirt cheap
and will give you a good idea of the total dissolved mineral level. the
Kh test will give you buffering capacity which in this case sounds like
what we are looking at.

I've never tried running vinegar over the mortar. Would that help?

Vinagar will just dissolve the top layer of mortar it is a bit too
aggressive and has no real buffering. What I used in my Fish tanks for
South american Discus to bring a ph of 7.2 down to 5.6 was peat in the
filter. This will slowly acidify the water and give you a higher organic
load. Which will bring your ph down and keep it down. Drawback is that
it will color your waster a bit to the brown side.

Good luck

--
JSin
Lost Generation Custom Tattoo
To reply Kill the idiot

Cement in concrete hydrates producing the hardened paste, heat, and calcium
hydroxide. The calcium hydroxide has a pH of around 13. The calcium
hydroxide will continue to leach into the water over a long period of time.
You can significantly reduce the rate of flow by allowing the concrete to
completely dry for a few weeks. The carbon dioxide in the atmosphere reacts
with the calcium hydroxide to make calcium carbonate at the surface of the
concrete. This carbonation layer is very dense, blocking the pores so that
the calcium hydroxide has a much harder time migrating to the surface.

Calcium hydroxide is probably the cause of your high pH and it will not show
on a KH test kit that measures carbonates. You have in essence an
unbuffered high pH. Do not use vinegar. If you are going to do an acid
wash, use muratic acid, masons use it to clean brick, and use it before the
drying process. I don't think that you will need to use the acid, just let
Mother Nature fix it.
--
RichToyBox
http://www.geocities.com/richtoybox/pondintro.html


"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 05:53:05 -0700, in a place far, far away, JSin
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in
such a way as to indicate that:

Look to the lime in your mortor if you are running at 8.o and rebounding
that hard it is being buffered by the the mortar. What is your Tap water
pH???

It's the same, as best as I can tell from a color test (don't have a
meter--a tad over 8, maybe as high as 8.2.

I would bet it is 1 or 2 points lower and I will guarentee your
supplier is running a lot lower especially in thier feeder tanks where
you have a huge bioload and a lot of organic material.

Well, the new pond and the tap are the same, as far as I can tell. My
healthy patio pond (that is replenished regularly from the tap) is
7.6.

But as you say, the fact that it rebounds so quickly from the acid
does indicate a lot of continuing buffering. I'll have to go out and
get a KH test kit, I guess, to really know what's going on.

I've never tried running vinegar over the mortar. Would that help?

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here's my email address for autospammers:

IMO.... after so many others. ;o) We need to know the KH. You mention
putting acid in and ammonia and I'm not sure how soon you put the goldies
in after doing that? Ammonia changes to nitrites to nitrates, what is using
up the nitrates? Do you have a nirIte testor?

I've kept goldfish in water as high as 9.0 without fatalities, of course
adjustments were made in the QT so they could handle the higher pH. The one
goldie actually had to put up with me mess around trying to lower the pH
w/acid and adding buffer to maintain the KH and didn't succumb and this was
a fantail oranda, usually more sensitive to such things. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website


On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 21:25:39 GMT, h (Rand
Simberg) wrote:

On Sun, 29 Jun 2003 16:05:13 -0500, in a place far, far away, "~
Windsong ~" made the phosphor on my
monitor glow in such a way as to indicate that:

Fighting the turbulence and the suction from the pump is probably doing them
in. They die of exhaustion.

Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of.

I guess I should just wait until I complete the big pond before I put
in any fish. I don't want to shut down or downsize the pumps, because
it's a nice flow sonically, and it's what I plan once the full pond
goes in (which will be about a one-hour turnover).

Feeder fish are expected to have a high mortality. I don't know that their
loss will tell you much about your water state....
"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...
I'm establishing a new pond. It has a small stream about forty feet
long, river rock mortared in, with gravel bottom, and four small (a
few inch each) falls. Right now, it's not so much a pond as a fifty
gallon tub at the bottom of the stream, until I get around to digging
the actual pond. I'm running several hundred gallons per hour through
the stream (it's primarily for a pleasant sound effect outside the
bedroom window for now), so I'm turning the system over several times
per hour.

The cement and mortar are several months old now, and I've changed the
water a couple times, so I suspect that the lime is mostly leached out
by now. I know there's a good biofilter situation going on
(presumable in the stream bed), because for the last week, I've put
pure ammonia into it, spiking it up to several parts per million, and
it's back down to zero within a day or so, with a corresponding
increase and decrease in nitrites. The ph is a little high (near 8)
but when I add acid to take it down, it goes back up again within a
day or so.

Anyway, I decided to try some feeders in it. I put in eight
yesterday, and as of now, three of them were floating. I don't see
the others (but it's a shaded area, with a fall into it creating
turbulence, so I wouldn't necessarily). Anyway, three out of eight
dying in one day sounds like more than normal mortality to me.

What should I be looking for? Is it possible that it's just too high
a turnover rate, and the pump suction in such a small volume is wiping
them out?

The problem with that theory is that before I cemented in the rocks,
and was just running it with a liner, I kept fish in the tub with no
problems (though they did die from other causes (e.g., an overflow
when I wasn't home that flooded the yard and then stranded them).

Or perhaps I didn't give them long enough to stabilize temperature
before releasing them from the bag, and they're shocked (I gave it
over an hour)?

Anything else I should check?

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here's my email address for autospammers:

Feeder fish are expected to have a high mortality. I don't know that their
loss will tell you much about your water state....
"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...
I'm establishing a new pond. It has a small stream about forty feet
long, river rock mortared in, with gravel bottom, and four small (a
few inch each) falls. Right now, it's not so much a pond as a fifty
gallon tub at the bottom of the stream, until I get around to digging
the actual pond. I'm running several hundred gallons per hour through
the stream (it's primarily for a pleasant sound effect outside the
bedroom window for now), so I'm turning the system over several times
per hour.

The cement and mortar are several months old now, and I've changed the
water a couple times, so I suspect that the lime is mostly leached out
by now. I know there's a good biofilter situation going on
(presumable in the stream bed), because for the last week, I've put
pure ammonia into it, spiking it up to several parts per million, and
it's back down to zero within a day or so, with a corresponding
increase and decrease in nitrites. The ph is a little high (near 8)
but when I add acid to take it down, it goes back up again within a
day or so.

Anyway, I decided to try some feeders in it. I put in eight
yesterday, and as of now, three of them were floating. I don't see
the others (but it's a shaded area, with a fall into it creating
turbulence, so I wouldn't necessarily). Anyway, three out of eight
dying in one day sounds like more than normal mortality to me.

What should I be looking for? Is it possible that it's just too high
a turnover rate, and the pump suction in such a small volume is wiping
them out?

The problem with that theory is that before I cemented in the rocks,
and was just running it with a liner, I kept fish in the tub with no
problems (though they did die from other causes (e.g., an overflow
when I wasn't home that flooded the yard and then stranded them).

Or perhaps I didn't give them long enough to stabilize temperature
before releasing them from the bag, and they're shocked (I gave it
over an hour)?

Anything else I should check?

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here's my email address for autospammers:

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:11:12 GMT, in a place far, far away, "DKat"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Feeder fish are expected to have a high mortality. I don't know that their
loss will tell you much about your water state....

A hundred percent? They all died by the second day...

OTOH, I bought another eight (from the same tank) that I've got in a
bowl now, gradually increasing the pH over the next few days, and
they're doing fine.

If feeders were that fragile, they'd make lousy coal-mine canaries.

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here's my email address for autospammers:

"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:11:12 GMT, in a place far, far away, "DKat"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:

Feeder fish are expected to have a high mortality. I don't know that
their
loss will tell you much about your water state....

A hundred percent? They all died by the second day...
snip

I used to by Rosie's to feed my gar before he died. I found them to be hit
or miss. In my 55 gal, they seemed to either last forever or die over night.
I had about a 50/50 chance of either. In my 10 gallon stock tank, they never
died. In my pond, they have been spawning like crazy. All tanks have good
water numbers. Go figure.

I think feeders are just bargain basement fish, and what you get is what you
pay for.

BV.

BenignVanilla wrote:
"Rand Simberg" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 21:11:12 GMT, in a place far, far away, "DKat"
made the phosphor on my monitor glow in such a
way as to indicate that:


Feeder fish are expected to have a high mortality. I don't know that

their

loss will tell you much about your water state....

A hundred percent? They all died by the second day...

snip

I used to by Rosie's to feed my gar before he died. I found them to be hit
or miss. In my 55 gal, they seemed to either last forever or die over night.
I had about a 50/50 chance of either. In my 10 gallon stock tank, they never
died. In my pond, they have been spawning like crazy. All tanks have good
water numbers. Go figure.

I think feeders are just bargain basement fish, and what you get is what you
pay for.

BV.


It is not just that. In general they are abused and frequently not
happy. Remember they are feeders they are ment and bred to be food so
the retailer and the shipper is looking to maximize profit. So when they
ship they are in bags of about 150 to a 3gal bag they arrive in the
store with a water temp of often 80 and amonia so strong it will know
you across the room. The descaling you see in the tank frequently is
from amonia burns. Once tanked the loss rate for the fist 24 hours can
be up to 30 percent. This isn't because they are fragile fish on the
contrary they have survived abuse that other fish are incapable of
sustaining.

The down side of this is you should isolate them before placing in an
established population. This is because tight conditions and
overstocking create prime conditions for disease.

When I use them for feeders they are generally held for 2 weeks. For a
pond you will generally see early signs of problems very soon after they
get home so 1 week is probably ok.

This is not to say don't use feeders for pets just be aware that the
losses are due to conditions and the little monsters are *more* likely
to be carrying pathegens because they have been abused in shipping.

This though I think has little to do with the OP as a more likely
culprit due to the speed of his loss is the water conditions in his pond.

--
JSin
Lost Generation Custom Tattoo
To reply Kill the idiot

Feeder fish are expected to have a high mortality. I don't know that their
loss will tell you much about your water state....

A hundred percent? They all died by the second day...

That's usually transplant shock. If you're lucky you can ask the store for
their pH and hopefully the clerk knows. Wide change in temperature or pH
can kill them off fast.

Another reason why a Q-tank is necessary, you can make the pH to what they
were in, and slowly change it to what they will eventually be moved to. On
long travel trips I've dropped the pH in my Q-tank to 7.0 or less, as the
pH in the bag will be acidic after several or more hours in a bag. Really
helps the fish adjust with less stress, imo. ~ jan


See my ponds and filter design:
http://users.owt.com/jjspond/

~Keep 'em Wet!~
Tri-Cities WA Zone 7a
To e-mail see website

On Fri, 04 Jul 2003 13:50:44 -0700, in a place far, far away, ~ jan
JJsPond.us made the phosphor on my monitor glow
in such a way as to indicate that:

A hundred percent? They all died by the second day...

That's usually transplant shock. If you're lucky you can ask the store for
their pH and hopefully the clerk knows. Wide change in temperature or pH
can kill them off fast.

Another reason why a Q-tank is necessary, you can make the pH to what they
were in, and slowly change it to what they will eventually be moved to. On
long travel trips I've dropped the pH in my Q-tank to 7.0 or less, as the
pH in the bag will be acidic after several or more hours in a bag. Really
helps the fish adjust with less stress, imo. ~ jan

I just tried that this week, on the assumption that it was pH shock
(the tank in the store was down around seven, and my pond is up around
eight). I just put them in the pond yesterday, and will see how they
do.

I also have to say, the pumps don't seem to be bothering them at all.
I put up a piece of flagstone to protect half the tub from the flow,
and they swim around and over the pumps, and then back over to the
quiet side, so I don't think that it was an exhaustion problem.

--
simberg.interglobal.org * 310 372-7963 (CA) 307 739-1296 (Jackson Hole)
interglobal space lines * 307 733-1715 (Fax) http://www.interglobal.org

"Extraordinary launch vehicles require extraordinary markets..."
Swap the first . and @ and throw out the ".trash" to email me.
Here's my email address for autospammers: