Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the drought), I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
...
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

WLW

On 28 Jul 2003 09:29:24 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Sue, you don't need to tell me about the rain: it *tries" to screw with
my
water chemistry, too. When the rain comes from "inland" over the
phosphate
mines, I've had my KH drop by 80 points in a few hours. But you've got a
few
problems going on he new pond, heavy rain, and that (expletive
deleted)
algae.

Sue: Yes, the waterfall adds oxygen to the pond, depending on the drop. I
have 3 waterfalls, but the 2 that enter the pond are only a shallow drop,
and don't add much in the way of surface disturbance. If you have a drop of
18" or so, you may be OK. However, extra O2 is *never* a bad idea. I'd place
the airstone about 2/3 of the way from the waterfall: the airstone will
ensure that the far end of the pond also is properly aerated.

Your "brown algae" doesn't "quite" sound normal. New ponds usually grow nice
green stuff, not brown stuff. Especially brown stuff that breaks loose and
clogs the filter. Do you have any Koi Clay? Among its many benefits, it
also acts as a floculant: it gathers the stuff floating in the water column
and takes it to the bottom, leaving you with clear water. Considering that
your water is pretty clouded, if you have some, I'd mix about 1/2 cup in a
bucket of pond water, mix it up to disolve it, and pour it around the pond
edges. Try to get it mixed in with the water. It will turn your pond gray
for a few hours, but should clear over night. It may help, but it definitely
won't hurt. Another thing you could try: replace your skimmer mat with a
lingerie bag stuffed with netting, the kind you use for crafts (like coarse
bridal veil). It will catch a lot of the "fines" that are going through it,
which will also help clear your water. BE FOREWARNED: I have to clean mine
twice a day, but my water's gin clear! Just take the bag somewhere where you
can blast the blazes out of it with a water hose, then plunk it back in. If
you've got what I think you have (cyanobacteria), it will be an on-going
effort until the water cools again. It works in cycles; I'm on my third
since Spring.

As far as fish in the skimmer: I've got to tackle that one myself this
weekend. My fish don't get trapped, but the go in looking for food and get
stuck. I'm constantly finding scales they ripped off trying to get back out.
The problem is, you can put anything over it that will block the water flow.
But it has to be large enough to keep the fish out. But as long as they
don't get sucked against the water intake, they'll be ok.

Lee


"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
Nedra,
Actually both you and Lee agree that I should keep up with the baking
soda. So by your calculations I can add 1& 1/2 cups for my pond and
still be safe for the fish. OK, I will do that 3 days running,
between the rain drops (actually torrents & lightning strikes).

Lee,
Basically it's brown water that gets worse when stirred by rain, I can
only see down about 8" maybe 10" into the pond. The liner, edges of
the leaves and stems get covered with the brown stuff. The filter
gets clogged in a few days and we need to keep cleaning it. It looks
like dirty bropwn water, but the pond guy around here says its brown
algae.

Doesn't the waterfall do enough to add oxygen to the water, it comes
in at a pretty good rate from the stream? I never see the fish up top
looking for air. They do occasionally swim thru the waterfall. Had
one in the skimmer yesterday, got it out and it seems to be OK, anyway
to stop that happening again?

Will Get the biofilter up and running and then just wait it out. It
would be so nice to be able to see my fish where ever they are!

Should I be doing 25% water changes in the pond at this point? I used
to do it in the barrel garden, but I'm not sure if it would do any
good here or just slow up the process of balancing.

Thanks, Sue W

Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the drought), I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

Get your KH up and you will buffer the pH automatically. One day not long
ago, we had 4" of rain in 23 minutes. It dropped my KH by 80 points, but the
pH held solid.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
...
Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the drought),
I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the
pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

So you try to keep your KH in what range?

And you do this with Sodium Bicarbonate?

Can you add too much bicarb?

I ask these questions because it seems every time I put something in
my pond, the lily pads get soft spots or something.

It may be Muriate of Potash that causes this problem - I stopped using
it for the present.


On 29 Jul 2003 10:11:29 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Get your KH up and you will buffer the pH automatically. One day not long
ago, we had 4" of rain in 23 minutes. It dropped my KH by 80 points, but the
pH held solid.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the drought),
I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the
pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

I have a bead filter and a very heavy fish load, which is a bad combination
for KH. A bead filter isn't "happy" unless the KH is over 200; I keep mine
(basically) in the 11-13 drop range, which is about 200-230 ppm. You can
keep a stable pH at 8.3 (give or take a tenth!) with KH in the 150 range,
and still have enough wiggle room for rains. Just check the KH after a good
rain and bring the KH back up.

Use regular baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), nothing fancy. You can get the
generic stuff at the grocery store and it works just as good as Arm and
Hammer. I won't say that you "can't" add too much, but the folks that import
fish and are even more overstocked than *I* am routinely keep their KH at
400-500 to avoid crashes. It should have no affect on your lilies
whatsoever. For that matter, the potash should have made the plants
stronger, not weaker. Lily pads don't last much longer than 2 weeks or so
anyway, depending on the "breed" of lily. Some last a goodly amount of time,
and others are prolific, but short-lived.

BTW, add about a cup per 1000 gallons of baking soda to your pond and
measure the difference and adjust as necessary. Using that formula, I can
raise my KH by one drop. If you have a skimmer box, you can just drop the
whole cup in and walk away, but you must keep that concentration away from
the fish. If you don't have a filter or something away from them, mix the BS
in a bucket of pond water and splash it around the pond.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
...
So you try to keep your KH in what range?

And you do this with Sodium Bicarbonate?

Can you add too much bicarb?

I ask these questions because it seems every time I put something in
my pond, the lily pads get soft spots or something.

It may be Muriate of Potash that causes this problem - I stopped using
it for the present.


On 29 Jul 2003 10:11:29 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Get your KH up and you will buffer the pH automatically. One day not long
ago, we had 4" of rain in 23 minutes. It dropped my KH by 80 points, but
the
pH held solid.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the
drought),
I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the
pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

Thanks for the info.


On 29 Jul 2003 15:26:34 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

I have a bead filter and a very heavy fish load, which is a bad combination
for KH. A bead filter isn't "happy" unless the KH is over 200; I keep mine
(basically) in the 11-13 drop range, which is about 200-230 ppm. You can
keep a stable pH at 8.3 (give or take a tenth!) with KH in the 150 range,
and still have enough wiggle room for rains. Just check the KH after a good
rain and bring the KH back up.

Use regular baking soda (sodium bicarbonate), nothing fancy. You can get the
generic stuff at the grocery store and it works just as good as Arm and
Hammer. I won't say that you "can't" add too much, but the folks that import
fish and are even more overstocked than *I* am routinely keep their KH at
400-500 to avoid crashes. It should have no affect on your lilies
whatsoever. For that matter, the potash should have made the plants
stronger, not weaker. Lily pads don't last much longer than 2 weeks or so
anyway, depending on the "breed" of lily. Some last a goodly amount of time,
and others are prolific, but short-lived.

BTW, add about a cup per 1000 gallons of baking soda to your pond and
measure the difference and adjust as necessary. Using that formula, I can
raise my KH by one drop. If you have a skimmer box, you can just drop the
whole cup in and walk away, but you must keep that concentration away from
the fish. If you don't have a filter or something away from them, mix the BS
in a bucket of pond water and splash it around the pond.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
So you try to keep your KH in what range?

And you do this with Sodium Bicarbonate?

Can you add too much bicarb?

I ask these questions because it seems every time I put something in
my pond, the lily pads get soft spots or something.

It may be Muriate of Potash that causes this problem - I stopped using
it for the present.


On 29 Jul 2003 10:11:29 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Get your KH up and you will buffer the pH automatically. One day not long
ago, we had 4" of rain in 23 minutes. It dropped my KH by 80 points, but
the
pH held solid.

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Hmmmmm, guess I'll start checking the pH of rain water.

I did notice a good drop in pH back when we were getting all that rain
- not much lately - rain that is.

Figured that was from the normal absorbtion of CO2.

You may be nearer one of the "bad" phosphate plants.


On 29 Jul 2003 07:50:17 -0500, "Lee Brouillet"
wrote:

Hey Weldon! Land O' Lakes . . . the rain coming from your direction is
REALLY acid - if it hasn't rained in a while (like during the
drought),
I've
tested the pH at 4.7! That will really knock the stuffing out of the
pond's
pH, especially if you get a couple of inches of it!!

Lee

"Weldon Wallick" wrote in message
.. .
Where might you be near the "phosphate mines"? I'm in Bartow.

"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message ...
Sue: Yes, the waterfall adds oxygen to the pond, depending on the drop.
If you have a drop of 18" or so, you may be OK.

Actually, the waterfall is two tiered from the head pool into the
stream with each drop about 9", then it travels the lenght of the
stream 22', then it drops into the pond about 12". How big of an
airstone are you talking, in the barrel all I had was a walnut sized
one. Where do you get bigger ones? What type(size?) of air pump do
you need to run the size you are recommending?


I'd place the airstone about 2/3 of the way from the waterfall: the airstone
will ensure that the far end of the pond also is properly aerated.

I have a water spouting crane which leaks so badly that it can't be
used. It is at that 2/3 locations that you referred to. I put it
there to make sure water moved all around the pond, no dead spots. If
I can get it fixed would that do the job for the extra oxygen?


Your "brown algae" doesn't "quite" sound normal. New ponds usually grow nice
green stuff, not brown stuff. Especially brown stuff that breaks loose and
clogs the filter.

It's like loose silt, really doesn't look like algae...


Do you have any Koi Clay?

No, on the Koi Clay. Where do we get it around here? Tampa, Hernando
or Pasco county or on the internet?


replace your skimmer mat with a lingerie bag stuffed with netting, the kind
you use for crafts (like coarse bridal veil).

This I can do easily.


If you've got what I think you have (cyanobacteria), it will be an on-going
effort until the water cools again. It works in cycles; I'm on my third
since Spring.

cyanobacteria?? I"ll have to look that up as I've never heard of that
one, but that's par for the course, remember when I first filled the
pond back in January I had red algae. Drained and redug it since then
and glad it didn't appear when we refilled in May.


Thanks Lee for all the good info...Sue W

If you don't have Aquatic Ecosystem's catalog, you NEED it G! I can (and
have!) spend *hours* looking through it. They have a pretty extensive
website, but it's a little hard to navigate. However, you can order the
catalog from the http://www.aquaticeco.com You can find the airstones,
pumps, and more stuff than you ever thought existed! They're over there
around Apopka, so even "regular" UPS is "next-day" delivery for us'ns here
in FL.

Your water-spouting crane would help, but it's not as efficient as the
airstone(s). It just *looks* nicer!

If I remember during my search for info, there are over 40,000 different
species of algae. I think at one time or another, most of them have found
their way to my pond (long sigh . . .). And it's very difficult to get rid
of: even dumping the pond and scrubbing everything doesn't get rid of it
all. It hides in the plants, on your rock work, EVERYwhere. And all it needs
is a few pieces to reestablish itself. That brownish, olive-green silty
stuff could still be cyanobacteria. It comes in multiple forms, too. BTW,
I've never heard of red algae except for the blooms in the Gulf, which are
usually deadly. There's a fresh water version of it, too??? Sheesh . . .

I've never been able to find Koi Clay locally. No one carries it. But get
ahold of Gene Winstead at http://www.koivillage.com and he'll get some out
to you. Check out his site (both commercial and personal): he has a lot of
info.

Lee




"Sue Walsh" wrote in message
om...
"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Sue: Yes, the waterfall adds oxygen to the pond, depending on the drop.
If you have a drop of 18" or so, you may be OK.

Actually, the waterfall is two tiered from the head pool into the
stream with each drop about 9", then it travels the lenght of the
stream 22', then it drops into the pond about 12". How big of an
airstone are you talking, in the barrel all I had was a walnut sized
one. Where do you get bigger ones? What type(size?) of air pump do
you need to run the size you are recommending?


I'd place the airstone about 2/3 of the way from the waterfall: the
airstone
will ensure that the far end of the pond also is properly aerated.

I have a water spouting crane which leaks so badly that it can't be
used. It is at that 2/3 locations that you referred to. I put it
there to make sure water moved all around the pond, no dead spots. If
I can get it fixed would that do the job for the extra oxygen?


Your "brown algae" doesn't "quite" sound normal. New ponds usually grow
nice
green stuff, not brown stuff. Especially brown stuff that breaks loose
and
clogs the filter.

It's like loose silt, really doesn't look like algae...


Do you have any Koi Clay?

No, on the Koi Clay. Where do we get it around here? Tampa, Hernando
or Pasco county or on the internet?


replace your skimmer mat with a lingerie bag stuffed with netting, the
kind
you use for crafts (like coarse bridal veil).

This I can do easily.


If you've got what I think you have (cyanobacteria), it will be an
on-going
effort until the water cools again. It works in cycles; I'm on my third
since Spring.

cyanobacteria?? I"ll have to look that up as I've never heard of that
one, but that's par for the course, remember when I first filled the
pond back in January I had red algae. Drained and redug it since then
and glad it didn't appear when we refilled in May.


Thanks Lee for all the good info...Sue W