~ Windsong ~ wrote:

gets blown off,

## It can't get blown off if it's put on right. You don't just toss it
## over the pond.

Right. I've had winds that could blow _anything_ away.

Herons have stabbed through nets,

## Herons do not STAB fish through nets or any other way. Herons GRAB
## the fish with their beaks - they do not stab them!

That's both simplistic, and wrong. Herons strike with a stabbing motion, so
while that isn't the mechanism they use to kill fish, it's still
descriptive. In any case, Herons _have_ been known to stab fish. I don't
know if it's accidental or what, but enough people have found dead fish
with triangular holes in them to be sure that Herons do occasionally do
that.

## I have never had one tangled up in the net. The net is too tight to
tangle a large bird. A small bird may get a head and wing caught. Also
the
Feds do not post the "pond police" in your backyard! LOL!!! You've got
to be kidding me!!!! :-D

And that's an excuse, why? The Feds won't post somebody in your back yard
to make sure you aren't murdering your neighbors, either, but it would
still be wrong to do it.

--
derek

~ Windsong ~ wrote:

gets blown off,

## It can't get blown off if it's put on right. You don't just toss it
## over the pond.

Right. I've had winds that could blow _anything_ away.

Herons have stabbed through nets,

## Herons do not STAB fish through nets or any other way. Herons GRAB
## the fish with their beaks - they do not stab them!

That's both simplistic, and wrong. Herons strike with a stabbing motion, so
while that isn't the mechanism they use to kill fish, it's still
descriptive. In any case, Herons _have_ been known to stab fish. I don't
know if it's accidental or what, but enough people have found dead fish
with triangular holes in them to be sure that Herons do occasionally do
that.

## I have never had one tangled up in the net. The net is too tight to
tangle a large bird. A small bird may get a head and wing caught. Also
the
Feds do not post the "pond police" in your backyard! LOL!!! You've got
to be kidding me!!!! :-D

And that's an excuse, why? The Feds won't post somebody in your back yard
to make sure you aren't murdering your neighbors, either, but it would
still be wrong to do it.

--
derek

Benign Vanilla wrote:


"2pods" wrote in message
...
What I want to know is what herons taste like ?
snip

Resist....urge....to....say....


Aghhhhhh

THEY TASTE LIKE CHICKEN!!!!!


Thanks, Jeff. Now the urge for me to say it has gone away :-)
--
derek

Benign Vanilla wrote:


"2pods" wrote in message
...
What I want to know is what herons taste like ?
snip

Resist....urge....to....say....


Aghhhhhh

THEY TASTE LIKE CHICKEN!!!!!


Thanks, Jeff. Now the urge for me to say it has gone away :-)
--
derek

~ Windsong ~ wrote:

And we should always offer
them to posters asking for solutions. Then they can read through,
mull over the possible solutions and make a choice.

## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who
## tried

Huh? How can they make an educated choice when you keep telling them there
is one, and only one, way? You're sounding like solo...
--
derek

~ Windsong ~ wrote:

And we should always offer
them to posters asking for solutions. Then they can read through,
mull over the possible solutions and make a choice.

## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who
## tried

Huh? How can they make an educated choice when you keep telling them there
is one, and only one, way? You're sounding like solo...
--
derek

In article ,
"Benign Vanilla" wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
snip
My border collie is faster than any bird, and has killed small possums
coming into the yard.

The thing is, if your dog manages to grab and kill a heron (and I know
Jewely would!) how much trouble would you be in? It's not like you meant
for it to happen, and the great blues and little greens are not an
endangered species.

I like Herons and have rescued them and would hate to see one killed,
but accidents can happen. I'm just wondering what the authorities feel
about the natural instincts of certain breeds of dogs?
snip

I suspect you'd be in no trouble at all. Your dog in your yard? Hardly a
crime. Now, if you shot the bird and held it down for spot to kill, that
might be an issue.

That's kind of the way I look at it... ;-)

Border collies are excellent guard dogs.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

In article ,
"Benign Vanilla" wrote:

"Katra" wrote in message
...
snip
My border collie is faster than any bird, and has killed small possums
coming into the yard.

The thing is, if your dog manages to grab and kill a heron (and I know
Jewely would!) how much trouble would you be in? It's not like you meant
for it to happen, and the great blues and little greens are not an
endangered species.

I like Herons and have rescued them and would hate to see one killed,
but accidents can happen. I'm just wondering what the authorities feel
about the natural instincts of certain breeds of dogs?
snip

I suspect you'd be in no trouble at all. Your dog in your yard? Hardly a
crime. Now, if you shot the bird and held it down for spot to kill, that
might be an issue.

That's kind of the way I look at it... ;-)

Border collies are excellent guard dogs.
--
K.

Sprout the MungBean to reply

"I don't like to commit myself about heaven and hell‹you
see, I have friends in both places." --Mark Twain

In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ P@p wrote:
"kathy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Carol wrote And in the end only bird netting works

Netting is always an option
but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
For them it spoils the look,

## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall gawky
water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want to
net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However I
was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford the
endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both an
emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King Fishers
discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also, if
you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs. At
that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.

Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond. The stream was
teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
easy pickings. Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
season, but it's easy to get more). The only koi lost was due to human
problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
and it hit a koi.

The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ P@p wrote:
"kathy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Carol wrote And in the end only bird netting works

Netting is always an option
but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
For them it spoils the look,

## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall gawky
water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want to
net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However I
was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford the
endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both an
emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King Fishers
discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also, if
you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs. At
that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.

Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond. The stream was
teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
easy pickings. Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
season, but it's easy to get more). The only koi lost was due to human
problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
and it hit a koi.

The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ P@p wrote:
"kathy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Carol wrote And in the end only bird netting works

Netting is always an option
but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
For them it spoils the look,

## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
gawky
water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want
to
net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However
I
was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford
the
endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both
an
emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King
Fishers
discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also,
if
you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs.
At
that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.

Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could call
in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if there
are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers) King
Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
attractive or natural looking.

The stream was
teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
easy pickings.

$$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry or
small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of the
pond itself?

Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
season, but it's easy to get more).

$$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe you
managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
mosquito fish?

The only koi lost was due to human
problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
and it hit a koi.

$$ Fortunately we don't have problems like that since we live out in the
country.

The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

$$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us who
don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
huge streams?
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Cichlidiot" wrote in message
...
In rec.ponds ~ Windsong ~ P@p wrote:
"kathy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Carol wrote And in the end only bird netting works

Netting is always an option
but some people really don't want to net their ponds.
For them it spoils the look,

## Yes it does effect the looks of the pond. But so does those tall
gawky
water sprayers and wire/string strung all over the place. I didn't want
to
net mine either considering they're both in front of my house. However
I
was sick and tired of losing koi and GF to these predators. We did try
other methods first. Nothing worked. Perhaps other people can afford
the
endless losses and don't get attached to their fish. I do. It was both
an
emotional issue as well as a financial issue. When herons and King
Fishers
discover your pond all you become is a feeding station for them. Also,
if
you're in an area frequented by these birds you will usually (but not
always) also end up with large fish eating water snakes and bullfrogs.
At
that point you may as well buy a fish hatchery.

Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond.

$$ Oh that would be lovely if we were rich. :-) Have you any idea what
something like that would cost? If we had that kind of money we could call
in some pond builders and redo both ponds. In fact replace them with one
huge 3 to 4,000 gallon pond. But where would I put the plants then if there
are no shelves? How would this keep the (bullfrogs, snakes, snappers) King
Fishers out of the steep sided pond? Steep sided plants ponds are not
attractive or natural looking.

The stream was
teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
easy pickings.

$$ What stream? How long was the stream,? Herons do not want 1/2" fry or
small crayfish. How did you keep mosquito fish in the stream and out of the
pond itself?

Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
season, but it's easy to get more).

$$ Mosquitoes do not breed in streams (moving water). I can't believe you
managed to keep the fish in the stream for the herons, and out of your
pond. Did you have a net at the end of the stream? How large were the
mosquito fish?

The only koi lost was due to human
problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
and it hit a koi.

$$ Fortunately we don't have problems like that since we live out in the
country.

The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter. The whole stream had
pretty good daylight exposure for plant growth while the actual pond was
partially shaded. Actually, the only foreign species in the pond was a
muskrat that kept trying to build its nest in the pump house. Watching the
herons catch the fish in the stream added a nice natural touch I thought.

$$ How did you keep the fish in the stream? And what about those of us who
don't have $10,000+ to call in pond builders or don't have the space for
huge streams?
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote in message
...
----
I think Kathy is just saying there are options that work. For example, by
hooting, hollering, running, screaming, flapping my arms technique (patent
pending) has worked very well.

## So you stand outside or have someone stand outside from sunup to
sundown? We can't afford to pay someone to stay out there guarding our
ponds 7 days a week. In summer we often go away for weekends.

No fish loss from Heron so far. Your Heron
and Kingfishers may be more persistent then mine. I have many ponds in
yards
around me, so maybe they just other, quieter sources of food. Either way,
my
solution has so far...worked very well.
snip

## See above. We can't afford to hire a guard and we're not always home.
When we are, we are not at the windows watching for fish predators. I
would run out doing the screaming and flapping, with the 3 dogs no less - I
wrote about it here several years ago. At first it worked. They'd stay
away for a few days. Then, after awhile, a few weeks maybe, the herons
would fly into nearby trees until I went back inside. Within 15 minutes
they were fishing again. Yes, they were persistent. We often saw one
fishing in the ponds while another was up in a nearby tree. Or one was
behind the house fishing the kiddy pools. On one occasion there were three
in our yard.

## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who
tried
these other methods and none worked long-term and why? Do you realize
some
people are blaming herons for taking fish when the problem is snakes or
frogs? We need to ask them if these predators are also in their pond.
I
don't recall anyone asking them that question. Some people never see a
snake but suddenly find a shed skin near their pond. We can't assume
every
missing fish ended up dinner for some heron.
snip

True that. Last year, one of our Koi disappeared, plants knocked over and
a
very racoon like scat was found on the edge of the pond. Dern Racoons. My
neighbor even mentioned to me he saw a racoon walking down the street
towards my house. He must have heard about the buffet. My fish will swim
into your hand if you sit there, so they are certainly dinner options for
animals.

## Because of the dogs raccoons don't come into our yard. We have them as
well as deer, possums, skunks, red and blue fox, huge flocks of turkeys,
hawks......
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }((((((o
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Benign Vanilla" wrote in message
...

"~ Windsong ~" P@P wrote in message
...
----
I think Kathy is just saying there are options that work. For example, by
hooting, hollering, running, screaming, flapping my arms technique (patent
pending) has worked very well.

## So you stand outside or have someone stand outside from sunup to
sundown? We can't afford to pay someone to stay out there guarding our
ponds 7 days a week. In summer we often go away for weekends.

No fish loss from Heron so far. Your Heron
and Kingfishers may be more persistent then mine. I have many ponds in
yards
around me, so maybe they just other, quieter sources of food. Either way,
my
solution has so far...worked very well.
snip

## See above. We can't afford to hire a guard and we're not always home.
When we are, we are not at the windows watching for fish predators. I
would run out doing the screaming and flapping, with the 3 dogs no less - I
wrote about it here several years ago. At first it worked. They'd stay
away for a few days. Then, after awhile, a few weeks maybe, the herons
would fly into nearby trees until I went back inside. Within 15 minutes
they were fishing again. Yes, they were persistent. We often saw one
fishing in the ponds while another was up in a nearby tree. Or one was
behind the house fishing the kiddy pools. On one occasion there were three
in our yard.

## How can they make an educated choice without hearing form those who
tried
these other methods and none worked long-term and why? Do you realize
some
people are blaming herons for taking fish when the problem is snakes or
frogs? We need to ask them if these predators are also in their pond.
I
don't recall anyone asking them that question. Some people never see a
snake but suddenly find a shed skin near their pond. We can't assume
every
missing fish ended up dinner for some heron.
snip

True that. Last year, one of our Koi disappeared, plants knocked over and
a
very racoon like scat was found on the edge of the pond. Dern Racoons. My
neighbor even mentioned to me he saw a racoon walking down the street
towards my house. He must have heard about the buffet. My fish will swim
into your hand if you sit there, so they are certainly dinner options for
animals.

## Because of the dogs raccoons don't come into our yard. We have them as
well as deer, possums, skunks, red and blue fox, huge flocks of turkeys,
hawks......
--
Carol.... the frugal ponder...
"Eat Right, Exercise, Die Anyway."
~~~~~~~ }((((((o
http://www.heartoftn.net/users/windsong/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cichlidiot wrote:

Here's a potentially radical idea. How about tolerating the birds and
designing a way for them to gravitate towards the far more replaceable
fish (and less emotionally attached) than the expensive koi? The best
design I've seen so far is a deep, vertically flat sided pond fed by a
long, shallow stream/waterfall at a public koi pond. The stream was

Sounds good.

teaming with mosquito fish, crayfish and occasionally goldfish fry. The
herons almost always ate from there instead of attempting to get anything
in the main pond because they could wade into the stream and have pretty
easy pickings. Loosing those kind of fish wasn't a big deal (although I
suppose losing too many mosquito fish could be a problem in mosquito
season, but it's easy to get more).

Not likely to be a problem. I've never seen mosquito larvae or even many
mosquitos around my ponds. Koi and Goldfish are quite happy to eat them
too.

The only koi lost was due to human
problems when a teen threw a stepping stone from the garden into the pond
and it hit a koi.

Remove stone, tie round teenager's neck, repeat...

The stream served a second purpose too. It was planted with milfoil and
other plants, so it acted as a vegetative filter.

I've done that. It requires vigilance, though. That milfoil has a tendency
to dam the whole stream.

--
derek