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#1
31-08-2004, 07:05 AM
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Concrete vs. Liner for koi ponds
Hi Folks,
Been doing a lot of reading lately on the concrete vs. 45-mil liner issue when setting up a fish pond. I'd like to ask the question in a slightly different way: Assume that money is no object (for the moment, at least; I'm sure I'll come to my senses soon...) Also, assume that I don't have to set it up myself (I have a competent fish pond installer who can go either route, and is at this very moment sitting around waiting for me to make up my mind on which direction to go). Given those two criteria, I'd like to know, which pond bottom is best in the long run? Since ease of installation is not a concern, I'd like to hear from people who have had to live with one or the other for some time. Is maintenance easier on one or the other? Is one "prettier" than the other (highly subjective, I know). Does algae grow on concrete and not come off? I should mention that I live near San Jose, CA; earthquakes can happen, although I'm not sure how big a deal this is. I don't get the extreme temperatures, though (freezing nights are relatively rare, though it can get up to 100 F on occasion). There are no tree roots anywhere nearby that I have to worry about. So, thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input. I've been tearing my hair out over this crazy issue. Thanks! Michael |
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#2
31-08-2004, 07:31 AM
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I'm no pond expert but, the single most deciding factor for me in your
situation is the earthquakes. Swimming pools can (and do) crack during an earthquake and so can concrete ponds (I presume). The liner will flex and bend with the shaking of the ground and not likely crack. (Also, it seems to me to be easier to *add* stuff (waterfalls, streams, bogs, etc.) with a liner than would be with concrete.) My (non-expert) advice: Go with the liner. --Bryan On 8/30/2004 11:05 PM Michael Capone let loose a lemur across the keyboard and it typed:BR Hi Folks, I should mention that I live near San Jose, CA; earthquakes can happen, although I'm not sure how big a deal this is. I don't get the extreme temperatures, though (freezing nights are relatively rare, though it can get up to 100 F on occasion). There are no tree roots anywhere nearby that I have to worry about. So, thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input. I've been tearing my hair out over this crazy issue. Thanks! Michael -- ************************************************** ********** * Can't see the Forest | Bryan B. * * Through the Trees? | "Ho, Ho, Ho!" Santa * * Take it out! | accused as he went * * (Damn Viruses!) | through his list. * ************************************************** ********** |
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#3
31-08-2004, 03:40 PM
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Ok Michael, going with your scenario with money not an object..... I'd
go with a DragonKote ( http://www.mermaidhouse.com/ ) pond installation. It's a spray on pond liner system that is 100% polyurea. Mermaidhouse know's what their doing and what it takes to build a functioning koi pond. Now I know you're going to ask why I'd choose this system over liner or concrete so here's why... As mentioned concrete can have issues. It needs to be sealed from time to time. If it develops even a hairline crack (and you're in quake country!) it can be a real bugger to get it fixed. Liner can have issues as well, the biggie for me being wrinkles. Wrinkles trap debris and milm and even fish! Bottom drains are essential in koi ponds but if there are a lot of wrinkles they aren't very efficient (or good for that matter) at removing the mulm. A DragonKote pond gives the best of both. Depending on the soil conditions, local building codes etc. a supporting structure is built. Either a gunite like product is sprayed in/on the hole or block is used. Then the DragonKote is sprayed on the supporting structure with absolutely NO wrinkles and it can be sprayed right up to/on skimmers, bottom drains, etc to there will be no leaking issues. A DragonKote pond can be easily expanded as well as the polyurea can stick to itself. I happen to have 3 net-friends that have built DragonKote ponds, all are beautiful, highly functioning koi ponds. For me, I happen to think this is one of the best products out there right now. Out of curiosity you should post this question on the pond building forum at http://www.koiphen.com There are some professional pond builders in residence there that will gladly advise folks. They will help out with filtration designs as well as koi have very specific requirements. Even a beautiful looking pond can be a nightmare if the filtrations not up to the job and the fish start dying. Janet in sunny Niagara Falls (posting through Google because for some reason my replys aren't showing up) (Michael Capone) wrote in message . com... Hi Folks, Been doing a lot of reading lately on the concrete vs. 45-mil liner issue when setting up a fish pond. I'd like to ask the question in a slightly different way: Assume that money is no object (for the moment, at least; I'm sure I'll come to my senses soon...) Also, assume that I don't have to set it up myself (I have a competent fish pond installer who can go either route, and is at this very moment sitting around waiting for me to make up my mind on which direction to go). Given those two criteria, I'd like to know, which pond bottom is best in the long run? Since ease of installation is not a concern, I'd like to hear from people who have had to live with one or the other for some time. Is maintenance easier on one or the other? Is one "prettier" than the other (highly subjective, I know). Does algae grow on concrete and not come off? I should mention that I live near San Jose, CA; earthquakes can happen, although I'm not sure how big a deal this is. I don't get the extreme temperatures, though (freezing nights are relatively rare, though it can get up to 100 F on occasion). There are no tree roots anywhere nearby that I have to worry about. So, thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input. I've been tearing my hair out over this crazy issue. Thanks! Michael |
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#5
31-08-2004, 04:59 PM
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Uhmm... PlainBill..... a 1500 gallon koi pond is only big enough to keep
about 4 koi if one follows the generally accepted rule of 1000 gallons for the first koi and then 100 additional gallons per fish... I know folks with 25,000 gallons and are thinking of going bigger yet.  )Janet in sunny Niagara Falls -- "PlainBill" wrote in message ... I'd say that the deciding factor should be desired durability. I have two concrete koi ponds over 17 years old, and see no reason why they won't last longer than I will. I see no signs of leakage. Of course, if you're always redoing designs, that durability might be a disadvantage. A competent builder will use rebar to reinforce the concrete, so I wouldn't be too concerned about earthquakes. A 15,000 gallon pool is a typical pool, while a 1,500 gallon koi pond would be huge (the larger the srtucture, the more likely it is to be damaged by an earthquake). If you suffer a quake strong enough to damage a 1000 gallon pond, that will be the least of your problems!!! PlainBill On 30 Aug 2004 23:05:44 -0700, (Michael Capone) wrote: Hi Folks, Been doing a lot of reading lately on the concrete vs. 45-mil liner issue when setting up a fish pond. I'd like to ask the question in a slightly different way: Assume that money is no object (for the moment, at least; I'm sure I'll come to my senses soon...) Also, assume that I don't have to set it up myself (I have a competent fish pond installer who can go either route, and is at this very moment sitting around waiting for me to make up my mind on which direction to go). Given those two criteria, I'd like to know, which pond bottom is best in the long run? Since ease of installation is not a concern, I'd like to hear from people who have had to live with one or the other for some time. Is maintenance easier on one or the other? Is one "prettier" than the other (highly subjective, I know). Does algae grow on concrete and not come off? I should mention that I live near San Jose, CA; earthquakes can happen, although I'm not sure how big a deal this is. I don't get the extreme temperatures, though (freezing nights are relatively rare, though it can get up to 100 F on occasion). There are no tree roots anywhere nearby that I have to worry about. So, thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input. I've been tearing my hair out over this crazy issue. Thanks! Michael He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. -Thomas Paine |
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#6
31-08-2004, 07:16 PM
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That rule is rubbish. 600 gallons is plenty for half a dozen koi and when
they get large enough to be a problem you just rotate them for smaller ones. Not everyone has an acre of property to fit a 10,000 gallon pond on and these people should be able to enjoy thier koi without being scared to death that they need thousands of gallons just for a couple of koi. Sorry I dont mean to be a jerk, im just sick of people telling me that you have to have a fricking lake to enjoy koi, when it just aint true. D "Janet" wrote in message ... Uhmm... PlainBill..... a 1500 gallon koi pond is only big enough to keep about 4 koi if one follows the generally accepted rule of 1000 gallons for the first koi and then 100 additional gallons per fish... I know folks with 25,000 gallons and are thinking of going bigger yet. )Janet in sunny Niagara Falls -- "PlainBill" wrote in message ... I'd say that the deciding factor should be desired durability. I have two concrete koi ponds over 17 years old, and see no reason why they won't last longer than I will. I see no signs of leakage. Of course, if you're always redoing designs, that durability might be a disadvantage. A competent builder will use rebar to reinforce the concrete, so I wouldn't be too concerned about earthquakes. A 15,000 gallon pool is a typical pool, while a 1,500 gallon koi pond would be huge (the larger the srtucture, the more likely it is to be damaged by an earthquake). If you suffer a quake strong enough to damage a 1000 gallon pond, that will be the least of your problems!!! PlainBill On 30 Aug 2004 23:05:44 -0700, (Michael Capone) wrote: Hi Folks, Been doing a lot of reading lately on the concrete vs. 45-mil liner issue when setting up a fish pond. I'd like to ask the question in a slightly different way: Assume that money is no object (for the moment, at least; I'm sure I'll come to my senses soon...) Also, assume that I don't have to set it up myself (I have a competent fish pond installer who can go either route, and is at this very moment sitting around waiting for me to make up my mind on which direction to go). Given those two criteria, I'd like to know, which pond bottom is best in the long run? Since ease of installation is not a concern, I'd like to hear from people who have had to live with one or the other for some time. Is maintenance easier on one or the other? Is one "prettier" than the other (highly subjective, I know). Does algae grow on concrete and not come off? I should mention that I live near San Jose, CA; earthquakes can happen, although I'm not sure how big a deal this is. I don't get the extreme temperatures, though (freezing nights are relatively rare, though it can get up to 100 F on occasion). There are no tree roots anywhere nearby that I have to worry about. So, thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input. I've been tearing my hair out over this crazy issue. Thanks! Michael He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. -Thomas Paine |
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#7
31-08-2004, 07:39 PM
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That rule is rubbish. 600 gallons is plenty for half a dozen koi and when
they get large enough to be a problem you just rotate them for smaller ones. Not everyone has an acre of property to fit a 10,000 gallon pond 10000 / 8 = 1250 cu ft 15 x 15 x 5.5 feet |
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#8
31-08-2004, 08:44 PM
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Andrew Burgess wrote:
That rule is rubbish. 600 gallons is plenty for half a dozen koi and when they get large enough to be a problem you just rotate them for smaller ones. Not everyone has an acre of property to fit a 10,000 gallon pond 10000 / 8 = 1250 cu ft 15 x 15 x 5.5 feet I have 8 Koi and 6 goldfish in my 1200 gallon pond in the greenhouse. They have been happy and content and range from 4 - 16 inches in length. I am currently enlarging the pond to 2800 gallons but the key is water quality and filtration in my opinion. I also have a 380,000 gallon (approx) pond in my front yard and it fits in a little over a third of an acre 180' by 80' by 3.5' average depth 8' max. Bob in North Alabama |
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#9
31-08-2004, 08:56 PM
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 18:39:35 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Burgess
wrote: ===That rule is rubbish. 600 gallons is plenty for half a dozen koi and when ===they get large enough to be a problem you just rotate them for smaller ones. === ===Not everyone has an acre of property to fit a 10,000 gallon pond === ===10000 / 8 = 1250 cu ft === ===15 x 15 x 5.5 feet === Lets see on an acre you could make a one acre pond and hold approcimately 1.5 million gal of water if its only 4 feet deep or so IIRC. I have a friend that inherited 4 common goldfish when his father died. They are so big they can not move in their typical gold fish type bowl. He uses water straight from the tap, and changes it abaout once a week. Only uses an airstone, no filter.........been like that for a long long time. Can't say I agree with how they are, but his fish appear healthy. I offered him the opportunity to put them in my pond and his reply was just as soon as I get bored with them or they start to die then you can have em........At the least it would be awfull nice of him to give them a new home of even a 10 gal $29.00 Wal MArt setup so they would have some fin room! Even the poor old Bettas sold in a cup of water is IMHO not nice. The wifes Bettas each have a filtered 5 gal home. Visit my website: http://www.frugalmachinist.com Opinions expressed are those of my wife, I had no input whatsoever. Remove "nospam" from email addy. |
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#10
31-08-2004, 10:12 PM
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So D, are you actually going to tell someone that has come to love their
wetpets that are now 24" or 30" long that they now have to get rid of them? I seriously think not. What are you going to do with them? With little known about KHV not many (if any at all) would be willing to take them off your hands, let alone pay for them. You can add to the mix the number of parasites, bacteria and diseases that we do know about with koi and basically you are going to be SOL. We're not talking about 6" or even 12" goldfish here... we're talking about pond pigs that should, in proper conditions grown to be 30" or even 36" long! It's really not hard to get the water volumes needed to keep koi healthy, it means digging deeper. Here in zone 6b it's not recommended to even think about keeping koi unless you dig 5.5' to 6' deep. Koi don't do well in water below 40 degrees... Janet in sunny Niagara Falls -- "Dsybok" wrote in message ink.net... That rule is rubbish. 600 gallons is plenty for half a dozen koi and when they get large enough to be a problem you just rotate them for smaller ones. Not everyone has an acre of property to fit a 10,000 gallon pond on and these people should be able to enjoy thier koi without being scared to death that they need thousands of gallons just for a couple of koi. Sorry I dont mean to be a jerk, im just sick of people telling me that you have to have a fricking lake to enjoy koi, when it just aint true. D "Janet" wrote in message ... Uhmm... PlainBill..... a 1500 gallon koi pond is only big enough to keep about 4 koi if one follows the generally accepted rule of 1000 gallons for the first koi and then 100 additional gallons per fish... I know folks with 25,000 gallons and are thinking of going bigger yet. )Janet in sunny Niagara Falls -- "PlainBill" wrote in message ... I'd say that the deciding factor should be desired durability. I have two concrete koi ponds over 17 years old, and see no reason why they won't last longer than I will. I see no signs of leakage. Of course, if you're always redoing designs, that durability might be a disadvantage. A competent builder will use rebar to reinforce the concrete, so I wouldn't be too concerned about earthquakes. A 15,000 gallon pool is a typical pool, while a 1,500 gallon koi pond would be huge (the larger the srtucture, the more likely it is to be damaged by an earthquake). If you suffer a quake strong enough to damage a 1000 gallon pond, that will be the least of your problems!!! PlainBill On 30 Aug 2004 23:05:44 -0700, (Michael Capone) wrote: Hi Folks, Been doing a lot of reading lately on the concrete vs. 45-mil liner issue when setting up a fish pond. I'd like to ask the question in a slightly different way: Assume that money is no object (for the moment, at least; I'm sure I'll come to my senses soon...) Also, assume that I don't have to set it up myself (I have a competent fish pond installer who can go either route, and is at this very moment sitting around waiting for me to make up my mind on which direction to go). Given those two criteria, I'd like to know, which pond bottom is best in the long run? Since ease of installation is not a concern, I'd like to hear from people who have had to live with one or the other for some time. Is maintenance easier on one or the other? Is one "prettier" than the other (highly subjective, I know). Does algae grow on concrete and not come off? I should mention that I live near San Jose, CA; earthquakes can happen, although I'm not sure how big a deal this is. I don't get the extreme temperatures, though (freezing nights are relatively rare, though it can get up to 100 F on occasion). There are no tree roots anywhere nearby that I have to worry about. So, thoughts? Thanks in advance for any input. I've been tearing my hair out over this crazy issue. Thanks! Michael He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. -Thomas Paine |
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#11
31-08-2004, 10:33 PM
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The reason I add the 1000/100 rule of thumb to the algae primer is to counter all the articles I read in popular magazines. Most of them go along the line of 'dig the pond, line the pond, add living jewels, the koi' and that's it!!! Nothing about filtering, testing the water, a healthy balance, room to grow. Nada. Drives me nuts. I figure if we (rec.ponds) err on the side of caution a lot more koi will have half a chance of surviving the ponding fad. kathy :-) algae primer http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html |
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#12
01-09-2004, 05:36 PM
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On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 17:12:23 -0400, "Janet"
wrote: So D, are you actually going to tell someone that has come to love their wetpets that are now 24" or 30" long that they now have to get rid of them? I seriously think not. What are you going to do with them? With little known about KHV not many (if any at all) would be willing to take them off your hands, let alone pay for them. You can add to the mix the number of parasites, bacteria and diseases that we do know about with koi and basically you are going to be SOL. We're not talking about 6" or even 12" goldfish here... we're talking about pond pigs that should, in proper conditions grown to be 30" or even 36" long! It's really not hard to get the water volumes needed to keep koi healthy, it means digging deeper. Here in zone 6b it's not recommended to even think about keeping koi unless you dig 5.5' to 6' deep. Koi don't do well in water below 40 degrees... Janet in sunny Niagara Falls And here in sunny Phoenix, three foot deep water is just fine. PlainBill He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. -Thomas Paine |
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#13
01-09-2004, 05:27 PM
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Hmm, not to question your 'rule', but it would indicate SIX fish. And
I'm sure the 'rule' takes into account the size of the fish. Hmmm, a 25,000 gallon pond would be 50' X 20' x 3 ' deep. No, I wouldn't want to try that in concrete - or my back yard. Right off hand I'd say that's larger than the koi pond at the National Arboretum PlainBill On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 11:59:37 -0400, "Janet" wrote: Uhmm... PlainBill..... a 1500 gallon koi pond is only big enough to keep about 4 koi if one follows the generally accepted rule of 1000 gallons for the first koi and then 100 additional gallons per fish... I know folks with 25,000 gallons and are thinking of going bigger yet. )Janet in sunny Niagara Falls He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression, for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. -Thomas Paine |
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#14
01-09-2004, 01:25 AM
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