right. they wont eat when temps drop below 48 or so, GF will but dont feed them
below 50oF. and feed LIGHTLY. not very much. Ingrid

My albino channel catfish is a good thermometer where feeding is concerned. He
simply will not eat if the water temperature drops below 52 degrees F, although
the gold fish and Koi will nibble if given a little food. So when my catfish
stops eating, I stop feeding them all, or at least only feed them when the
temperature gets above 52 degrees F. And even then, I only give them a small
amount that they can eat in a couple of minutes, and only a couple of times per
week, if the temperature allows, and only if they are interested.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

right. they wont eat when temps drop below 48 or so, GF will but dont feed them
below 50oF. and feed LIGHTLY. not very much. Ingrid

My albino channel catfish is a good thermometer where feeding is concerned. He
simply will not eat if the water temperature drops below 52 degrees F, although
the gold fish and Koi will nibble if given a little food. So when my catfish
stops eating, I stop feeding them all, or at least only feed them when the
temperature gets above 52 degrees F. And even then, I only give them a small
amount that they can eat in a couple of minutes, and only a couple of times per
week, if the temperature allows, and only if they are interested.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

George wrote Well, there you go. You've done and challanged me.

chortle!

We had an
early spring, and a mild summer so I expect an early fall, and a cold winter.

I'm wondering about our winter. We usually have mild winters, SE WA, zone 7a,
arid and dry. Last year we got tons of snow. And this morning I hear the
kingfisher outside my window and he never shows up until December. I wonder if
he knows something I don't...


kathy :-)
algae primer
http://hometown.aol.com/ka30p/myhomepage/garden.html

damn leaves are turning in Milwaukee WI zone 5 already.. and N. WI had frost already.
it is the pits. Ingrid

"Bill Stock" wrote:
Here in frigid Ontario, some trees have changed colour and others have
started dropping their leaves. It won't belong before there is frost on the
pumpkin.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

1. stop running the waterfall drop the pump into a bucket filter and have the water
burble at the surface rather than blowing water into the air. keep the aeration
going all winter. drop in a tank heater over the aerator to keep a great hole open.

if you cover the pond with plastic over some kind of frame the pond will not freeze
over. if you up the heater to a 500 watt the pond will stay warm enough to feed for
many more months than without the plastic and heater. I do cut back on amount of
food and dont feed every day, I keep an eye on ammonia since the bucket filter is not
as efficient as the veggie filter.
running waterfall drops temp if air temp is lower than water temp.
slow feeding below 55oF, stop lower than 50.. actually koi will stop wanting food and
will go to bottom. Ingrid

"Nathan A. Smith" wrote:
1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
2. When to stop feeding...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

wrote in message
...
damn leaves are turning in Milwaukee WI zone 5 already.. and N. WI had frost
already.
it is the pits. Ingrid

I could have gone all day without hearing that depressing news. I guess it's
never too early to sharpen the snow shovel, eh?

"Bill Stock" wrote:
Here in frigid Ontario, some trees have changed colour and others have
started dropping their leaves. It won't belong before there is frost on the
pumpkin.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

My 2 cents, since the questions have already been answered.

Zone 7a, K30's area. I stop my water fall, and put a smaller pump on the
filter system and have tubing just above surface fanning over it to the
skimmer, bottom drained plugged. Really helped start up this spring keeping
half the bio-filter active.

As far as feeding. When you feed your fish, you must remember you are
feeding your filter and filters fall in efficiency as the temps get below
55 and go dormant at 40F. (Some say die, some say the dormant regarding the
bio-bugs, regardless not processing waste either way.) ~ jan ;o)


~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:41:14 +0000, dr-solo wrote:


running waterfall drops temp if air temp is lower than water temp.

Ok,

I talked to my 60+ year old physcist (spelling?) and learned a lot about
water flow. It's very complicated, but I will try to condense down what I
learned. From our conversation, I believe the above statement is false.
Here's why:

when water flows down a waterfall it has some amount of kentic energy
(provided realistically by the pump) this kentic energy in one way or
another is turned into heat. Let's assume for a moment 100% humidity,
then there would be no lose of water or energy due to evaporation. This
means all that KE is passed to the water, warming it up. On the flip side
of this is 0% humidity where almost all the energy will be used in
evaporation. Now the amount of KE is dependant upon the height of the
waterfall or the energy provided by the pump (minus friction and other
fluid loses). Thus it could be assumed that the larger the pump, the more
energy the waterfall *could* pass to the pond, given a high humidity. Now
what does this have to do with the outside tempature... Well if the
amount of energy necessary to drop the water temp is less than the
amount of energy being imparted to the water than there would be a
net gain of heat in the pond.

What does this all mean? From our conversation -- it is possible that
given the right circumstances that a pump ***COULD** (not saying WILL)
increase the temp in a pond.

Again this would mean a pump that in imparting greater energy to water
flow (minus friction and the such) than is being removed by evaporation
and tempature cooling could increase a ponds tempature.


"Nathan A. Smith" wrote:
1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
2. When to stop feeding...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
List Manager: Puregold Goldfish List
http://puregold.aquaria.net/
www.drsolo.com
Solve the problem, dont waste energy finding who's to blame
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other
compensation for all the damn work I do, nor for any of the
endorsements or recommendations I make.

"Nathan A. Smith" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 13:41:14 +0000, dr-solo wrote:


running waterfall drops temp if air temp is lower than water temp.

Ok,

I talked to my 60+ year old physcist (spelling?) and learned a lot about
water flow. It's very complicated, but I will try to condense down what I
learned. From our conversation, I believe the above statement is false.
Here's why:

when water flows down a waterfall it has some amount of kentic energy
(provided realistically by the pump) this kentic energy in one way or
another is turned into heat. Let's assume for a moment 100% humidity,
then there would be no lose of water or energy due to evaporation. This
means all that KE is passed to the water, warming it up. On the flip side
of this is 0% humidity where almost all the energy will be used in
evaporation. Now the amount of KE is dependant upon the height of the
waterfall or the energy provided by the pump (minus friction and other
fluid loses). Thus it could be assumed that the larger the pump, the more
energy the waterfall *could* pass to the pond, given a high humidity. Now
what does this have to do with the outside tempature... Well if the
amount of energy necessary to drop the water temp is less than the
amount of energy being imparted to the water than there would be a
net gain of heat in the pond.

What does this all mean? From our conversation -- it is possible that
given the right circumstances that a pump ***COULD** (not saying WILL)
increase the temp in a pond.

The amount of heat energy absorbed by water through friction under garden pond
conditions is miniscule. More heat is absorbed by the water running through the
pump (if it is a submersible, it actually needs water flowing around/through it
to keep the motor from overheating - most pumps, if run dry, can burn out) than
by the action of the impellers themselves. But since the water is in contact
with the pump for a very short period of time, and then goes through wind chill
under wintry conditions, the heat gain is negligible compared to the heat loss
at the waterfall/air interface. Given that we are talking about winter
conditions, you will very rarely find 100% humidity conditions that would
prevent heat loss due to wind chill. And in the winter, even at 100% humidity,
the air temperature will play a huge factor in heat loss. If it is 100%
humidity, and the air temperature is less than the water temperature, the water
will lose heat, even if ever so slightly. I've seen mist/fog coming off my pond
in a cold winter drizzle (above freezing). That fog is carrying the heat of the
water out of the pond. And the amount of heat picked up by the water from
contact with the pump is tiny compared to the huge heat sink of an artic cold
front (drawing off more heat from the water than can possibly be replenished by
a garden pump).

Having said that, I keep my pump running (by not my waterfall) until icy
conditions (I only had a very small crust of ice on one end of the pond last
year, and only for two days) prevail simply because I don't want my filter to
stagnate. It is always good to keep fresh water running through the filter at
all times, if possible, especially at the latitude where I live. My pump isn't
strong enough to create currents that would be bothersome to fish trying to
survive the winter, and the pond is large enough that the currents that are
induced by the pump are minimized. The fish didn't seem to notice it at all
last year.

Again this would mean a pump that in imparting greater energy to water
flow (minus friction and the such) than is being removed by evaporation
and tempature cooling could increase a ponds tempature.

See above.

"Nathan A. Smith" wrote in message
news
Hi,

I just have a few questions for the group concerning winterizing:

1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
Pros: ensures a hole is available for stuff to get out if pond
freezes...
actually, waterflow should reduce chances of pond freezing
Looks pretty
Water tempature should be higher than if not run (true?)
Cons: Still paying electrical cost
Waterfall may freeze at parts, causing water to go outside of pond
--Is this really true? As a decent flow rate how does it freeze?

2. When to stop feeding...
-- Reports range from 55 to 45 degrees
--- at what depth do we concern ourselves with..(1' temp != 3' temp)


Bonus question:

a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone explain how?

There's friction from the water molecules rubbing against each other as they
flow. Friction raises the temperature of the water. Got this from my
resident chemist.
Paula delurking

Nasa

"Nathan A. Smith" wrote in message
news
Hi,

I just have a few questions for the group concerning winterizing:

1. To run the waterfall or to not run the waterfall...
Pros: ensures a hole is available for stuff to get out if pond
freezes...
actually, waterflow should reduce chances of pond freezing
Looks pretty
Water tempature should be higher than if not run (true?)
Cons: Still paying electrical cost
Waterfall may freeze at parts, causing water to go outside of pond
--Is this really true? As a decent flow rate how does it freeze?

2. When to stop feeding...
-- Reports range from 55 to 45 degrees
--- at what depth do we concern ourselves with..(1' temp != 3' temp)


Bonus question:

a) I know water flow effects water tempature -- could someone explain how?

There's friction from the water molecules rubbing against each other as they
flow. Friction raises the temperature of the water. Got this from my
resident chemist.
Paula delurking

Nasa

" Paula Berkebile" wrote:

There's friction from the water molecules rubbing against each other as they
flow. Friction raises the temperature of the water. Got this from my
resident chemist.

I am a physicist and physics is the study of energy, not chemistry.
Actually physical chemistry studies phase changes like the freezing of
water. However, I will undauntedly state that the energy of friction
provides a very negligible amount of heating. It is usually negated by
the cooling that occurs when compressed liquids are decompressed. To
see exactly how negligible this energy is, the same flow could be
generated by gravity and the pools at the bottom of water falls don't
get warm. In fact some of the biggest water falls and biggest rivers
have been known to freeze solid.

The reason that moving water usually doesn't freeze is that there is
usually some source of heat, the ground, the pump or something else, and
the circulation spreads the heat around so that it is less likely for
the water to freeze.

In your home the outside spigots don't freeze if you let the water
trickle through because the water in the house is too warm to freeze
when it flows out.

Actually too energetic a pump can make things worse by robbing all the
heat out of the ground under the pond. It is optimum to have a pump just
big enough to keep the water circulated so some of the heat from the
bottom makes it to the top and keeps a hole open.

--
Pardon my spam deterrent; send email to

The reason that moving water usually doesn't freeze is that there is
usually some source of heat, the ground, the pump or something else,
and the circulation spreads the heat around so that it is less likely
for the water to freeze.


I see an illustration of this every winter. I live near Lake Winnebego,
in Wisconsin. Lake Winnebego is a widening in the Fox River. The lake is
about 10 miles wide and about 30 miles long. And it's shallow, most of
the lake is only about 10-15 feet deep. So there's lots of surface area
to cool the water from above and warm the water from the ground.

Nearly every December the harbor, where the water exits the lake over a
dam, freezes. What happens is that ice that forms upstream accumulates
behind the dam. At that point, usually mid December, the lake is still
largely open water.

Within a few weeks, by early January, the lake is usually completely
frozen over. But the ice clears from the harbor! What happens, I
believe, is that once the lake is frozen over, (a) there are no longer
any loose chunks of ice to float down stream, and (b) the only path for
the water flowing through the lake is along the bottom, where the water
is about 39 deg F. The relatively warm water upwells at the harbor and
melts any stray ice.

It is not unusual on a cold January morning - temperature below about 0
deg F - for clouds of steam to rise where the "warm" water flows over the
dam.


- Rich

OK, newbie zone 9 ponder. do I have to "worry" about winter here in Ventura
County at 100 feet above sea level. What is this snow stuff you are talking
about? (So. Cal Native) ;-0 Sounds like nasty stuff.

--
Totus Tuus
Claudia (take out no spam to reply)

"Claudia" wrote:

OK, newbie zone 9 ponder. do I have to "worry" about winter here in Ventura
County at 100 feet above sea level. What is this snow stuff you are talking
about? (So. Cal Native) ;-0 Sounds like nasty stuff.

It is sort of like sand but it is soft and goes away. When tracked in
doors it just turns to water and doesn't damage floors. Sand just stays
there and drifts all year long, not just in the winter. I would much
rather have snow than sand. There are only 3 things wrong with the
sho sand, sal****er, and seafood.

--
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