Hi Jan:
I know from past conversation that you really dont like ponds with rocks
in.

It's not that I don't like ponds w/rock. I think they are beautiful
actually, but I know what a headache and heartache they can be more often
than not. There are exceptions to every rule, such as yours. What kind of
fish do you keep in yours? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

They were installed by professional crews that are properly trained.

Well I guess the majority of our club members must have been professional
pool builders in past lives, as I've yet to hear of a bottom drain leaking.
;-)

In fact, the Demo Pond, all build by volunteers with only one person (me)
who had put in a pond involved, somehow managed to put in a bottom drain &
skimmer that doesn't leak. After that experience I figure it couldn't be
that easy to mess up, considering I hadn't even put a bottom drain thru the
liner myself at that time.

Not rocking a pond is a creepy sterile environment.

If you saw my pond you'd know it was anything but creepy, imho.

I don't know if Roy is still reading this thread, but if he is, Roy do you
have a link to the picture of the pond in koiphen that was covered with
algae that made the pond look like it was lined with sod? Absolutely
beautiful green like grass. What we should all strive for, rocks or not.

It is very easy to put your fish in a kiddie pool for a few hours while
you drain your pond, rent a power washer (or buy one they are not that
expensive) and spray the rocks and gravel, then suck out the muck. A
very easy task that just needs to be done in the spring anyway.

So you've personally done this? How many times?

If your goal is to have NO pond structure maintenance
then you are on track. But you sacrifice the natural look of a gravel
and rocked in pond.

Our goals is to keep people from filling them in out of frustration because
of sick fish and poor water quality, which has nothing to do with the
rocks. The rocks just make it harder to turn the situation around once it
goes south.

If I could keep people from over loading with fish, screen the ponds so no
leaves fall in, and beg mother nature for no more dust storms. AS ponds
might be a bigger hit in this area. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On 7 May 2005 01:13:48 -0700, wrote:


Derek Broughton wrote:
wrote:

Don't install bottom drains.

Why? 2 main reasons:

1. You have to cut a hole in the bottom of the rubber liner to fit
the
drain pipe. No matter how well you plan this and use the top of the
line sealants, it will leak. Maybe not in the first 2-3 years, but
no
matter the claims of sealants, they expand and shrink as the
temperature changes and do not change exactly at the same rate as
the
rubber liner. Over time this connection fails.

Do you have _any_ evidence to back this up? Consider that the
average
toilet seal, generally a much weaker seal than a good gasket in the
bottom
of a pond, can last thirty years...

If you are referring to the wax ring on the toilet base, that is a
static gravity seal and not subject to constant pressure. There is
nothing more aggravating that to drain your pond for spring or fall
cleanout and find that a leaking bottom drain has saturated the earth
with water. That water then causes the rubber liner to have huge
pockets of trapped water that bubble up the liner and cannot be fixed
without pulling the entire liner out and pumping the water out of the
hole and resealing the drain and fitting the liner again.

Actually, what you're describing... water pushing up the liner, is
nearly ALWAYS groundwater with hydrostatic pressure. In extreme
cases, this Naturally occuring build up of whater can actually LIFT a
solid pond (like those large plastic types) up out of the ground.
There are valves you can install in liners to equalize this pressure.

DO NOT USE BOTTOM DRAINS WITH LINERS

You need to learn what you're talking about.

~ jan JJsPond. us wrote:
Hi Jan:
I know from past conversation that you really dont like ponds with
rocks
in.

It's not that I don't like ponds w/rock. I think they are beautiful
actually, but I know what a headache and heartache they can be more
often
than not. There are exceptions to every rule, such as yours. What
kind of
fish do you keep in yours? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~


Jan,

I just moved in the last 30 days so at the present time I do not have a
pond. However, I am just about ready to break ground for a new 20'x 40'
breeding pond that is going to be especially set up for breeding
domestic championship quality Kohaku's. I want to offer in the next 2
years Japanese quality Koi at reasonable prices. I have a 40'x 80' pole
barn that is going to house 4 above ground tanks for continued growth
and feeding year round. I plan on these acually having bottom drains
and a centralized bead filtering system with UV protection from
disease. Of course these are not going to be rubber lined, but concrete
with protective coating. We have a very nice plan to offer some nice
fish in the future. I may even build another 2 or 3 in ground ponds
outside and breed other types of Koi.

In hindsight I should have changed the topic of my post to "Bottom
Drains, Perhaps Not?" but hindsight is fantastic.

I just know that when I look at a pond outside that has proper
maintenance and is rock and gravel that I like the way it looks much
better than without.

Happy Ponding

Paul
www.pondkoi.com

"Interesting." Good luck with the project and hope you post your
experiences with it. ~ jan

Jan,

I just moved in the last 30 days so at the present time I do not have a
pond. However, I am just about ready to break ground for a new 20'x 40'
breeding pond that is going to be especially set up for breeding
domestic championship quality Kohaku's. I want to offer in the next 2
years Japanese quality Koi at reasonable prices. I have a 40'x 80' pole
barn that is going to house 4 above ground tanks for continued growth
and feeding year round. I plan on these acually having bottom drains
and a centralized bead filtering system with UV protection from
disease. Of course these are not going to be rubber lined, but concrete
with protective coating. We have a very nice plan to offer some nice
fish in the future. I may even build another 2 or 3 in ground ponds
outside and breed other types of Koi.

In hindsight I should have changed the topic of my post to "Bottom
Drains, Perhaps Not?" but hindsight is fantastic.

I just know that when I look at a pond outside that has proper
maintenance and is rock and gravel that I like the way it looks much
better than without.

Happy Ponding

Paul
www.pondkoi.com

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

We have 12 fish total, gold fish and koi. The largest koi is about 7-8
inches. Not very big so water quality has not been an issue with lots
of flow rate up through the filter topped with a watercrest bed and
plants all around.
~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
It's not that I don't like ponds w/rock. I think they are beautiful
actually, but I know what a headache and heartache they can be more often
than not. There are exceptions to every rule, such as yours. What kind of
fish do you keep in yours? ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On Tue, 10 May 2005 06:10:14 GMT, Greg Cooper wrote:

We have 12 fish total, gold fish and koi. The largest koi is about 7-8
inches. Not very big so water quality has not been an issue with lots
of flow rate up through the filter topped with a watercrest bed and
plants all around.

The problem we've seen locally with the AS-type system is with koi and
damaging themselves on the rocky bottom & sides, and all the places
aeronomas bacteria can hang out to infect an open sore. To be on the safe
side, I'd use Koizyme.

I don't have a rock lined pond, but I do have them on the sides. Once my
koi got to breeding size/age, nicks got infected, that's what sold me on
the continuous practice of using Koizyme or Lymnozyme. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Hi Jan:
I had not heard of Koizyme but I have been a regular user of Lymozyme
and have not had a sick fish since using it 2 years ago. I also go
through a successive KMnO4/partial water change treatment in the spring
to knock back any bacteria that are waiting to get a jump on my fish.
Seems to be working. That reminds me I need to pick up a new bottle of
Lymozyme soon.

~ jan JJsPond.us wrote:
On Tue, 10 May 2005 06:10:14 GMT, Greg Cooper wrote:


The problem we've seen locally with the AS-type system is with koi and
damaging themselves on the rocky bottom & sides, and all the places
aeronomas bacteria can hang out to infect an open sore. To be on the safe
side, I'd use Koizyme.

I don't have a rock lined pond, but I do have them on the sides. Once my
koi got to breeding size/age, nicks got infected, that's what sold me on
the continuous practice of using Koizyme or Lymnozyme. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

On Wed, 11 May 2005 05:51:56 GMT, Greg Cooper wrote:

Hi Jan:
I had not heard of Koizyme but I have been a regular user of Lymozyme
and have not had a sick fish since using it 2 years ago. I also go
through a successive KMnO4/partial water change treatment in the spring
to knock back any bacteria that are waiting to get a jump on my fish.
Seems to be working. That reminds me I need to pick up a new bottle of
Lymozyme soon.

All sounds good. Koizyme or Lymozyme are the same product, different people
producing it. Not sure what the story is about them, but there is some
story. ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~