Jan I will give you readings as soon as we stop having afternoon storms. The
last 2 days we have had bad afternoon thunderstorms.
Priss
"~ janj JJsPond.us" wrote in message
...
I was curious. I have had my pond up since March. 15x15 and 4 ft deep. 3½
x9
4 ft settlement chamber/filter filled with media. 3 bottom drains.
About 8 medium Koi in it. Coast of Ga. MY water won't clear. It stays
green
looking. I don't know if its because its so hot here and I have a lot of
trees.
Fish seem happy. Friend got this koi clay and said hers cleared up. Was
wondering if it would do any good or just leave my pond alone and hope it
clears.
Just have water lettuce and a couple hyantchs. ms

There's the problem, more plants needed most likely. What are your water
parameters? Numbers preferred from all tests you have on hand. ~ jan

Got a couple water lilies but since I can't see the bottom am afraid to
get
in. I did catch 2 big snapping turtles and relocated them.
Got a frog sanctuary out there. Toads and Frog haven.
Priss

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

Jan I will give you readings as soon as we stop having afternoon storms. The
last 2 days we have had bad afternoon thunderstorms.
Priss

"So what's wrong with morning?" she asked quizzically, right eyebrow
raised. ) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Wilmdale" wrote in message
...
George wrote:

"Roy" wrote in message
. ..


The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
the various bentonite clays, with a google search....



Roy. I'm a geologist, and have used both types of bentonites extensively
in
my work. The question still stands. Why do you say that one is
preferred
over the other for use in garden ponds? The are both highly adsorptive,
and highly hydrophilic, so what difference does it make? Although they're
chemistry is slightly different, their physical properties are nearly
identical.




Geeeesh! I just called a supplier here and the guy that answered the
phone says "what's southern bentonite or calcium bentonite?" "I just
have straight bentonite". Then he says, "who calls it that"?
Interesting...
W. Dale

If he looked on the package, it will say what kind it is.

On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:41:43 GMT, " George"
wrote:


"Roy" wrote in message
.. .

The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
the various bentonite clays, with a google search....

Roy. I'm a geologist, and have used both types of bentonites extensively in
my work. The question still stands. Why do you say that one is preferred
over the other for use in garden ponds? The are both highly adsorptive,
and highly hydrophilic, so what difference does it make? Although they're
chemistry is slightly different, their physical properties are nearly
identical.



I believe it's supposed to be the extra calcium that gets into the
fish's diet, leads to better color, health, that sort of thing. The
sodium bentonite doesn't effect the calcium level.

I got some of the expensive kind, can't see that it did much for the
fish, but I have very little string algae this year and am growing
great water hyacinths.

We have so much calcium in our water already it seems odd that more
would do anything, but the ads were tempting.


--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:33:16 GMT, Charles
wrote:

snip
===
===I believe it's supposed to be the extra calcium that gets into the
===fish's diet, leads to better color, health, that sort of thing. The
===sodium bentonite doesn't effect the calcium level.

Thats possible...but I have a hard time believing that the koi can
take in and utilize the usual small amoaunt of calcium that would be
in a typical pond dose to do them any good.... However, folks use it
in various ways......mix it in with paste food, coat pelleted feeds
with it, broadcast it on the water etc....
===
===I got some of the expensive kind, can't see that it did much for the
===fish, but I have very little string algae this year and am growing
===great water hyacinths.

"Expensive kind" hmmmmmmmits all expensive from what I seen.....and I
can believe it does lock up a certain percentage of nutrients (mostly
phosphates) which would hinder most simple celled plants like algae
growth....
===
===We have so much calcium in our water already it seems odd that more
===would do anything, but the ads were tempting.

I also have to think this marketing ploy in regards to doing so many
marvelous things for a pond and fish is mostly hype, but it does have
some fringe benefits.......The so called needed minerals etc should
already be available if your feeding a quality balanced feed, and
water quality, well a proper filtraton systemn in a balance pond with
sufficient plants and not over loaded should also give the same
results of water quality without the addition of clay......

It seems that since most if not all champion koi come from Japans so
called Mud ponds, and the composition of these ponds are made up of
montmorillite (sp?) clay, (bentonite falls into this catagory) ponders
hope to establish the same chemical makeup of their pristine liner or
concrete ponds by usuing this clay......by making weekly
dosages.....Does it "really" work or is it all in ones own minds eye?
I know of folks that go to the pond pulls at harvest time in Japan and
also smuggle back the ponds mud in the hopes of seeding their home
ponds with the mud..........The only real benefit I can possibly see
is the collodial property of bentonite and its ability to act like a
floculent should theroetically bind up DOC and help with
turbidity....


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o

I figured it wouldn't read right if it just rained. no?
Priss
"~ janj JJsPond.us" wrote in message
news
Jan I will give you readings as soon as we stop having afternoon storms.
The
last 2 days we have had bad afternoon thunderstorms.
Priss

"So what's wrong with morning?" she asked quizzically, right eyebrow
raised. ) ~ jan

~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Charles" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 14 Jul 2005 12:41:43 GMT, " George"
wrote:


"Roy" wrote in message
. ..

The propertys of the two clays are entirely different.......One will
do the job (supposedly) and the other is used by those that don't know
any different simply because its bentonite and they considfer
bentonite all one and the same, which it is not. i'm not gonna get
into a blow by blow difference in clays, as there is a heap of info on
the various bentonite clays, with a google search....

Roy. I'm a geologist, and have used both types of bentonites extensively
in
my work. The question still stands. Why do you say that one is
preferred
over the other for use in garden ponds? The are both highly adsorptive,
and highly hydrophilic, so what difference does it make? Although they're
chemistry is slightly different, their physical properties are nearly
identical.



I believe it's supposed to be the extra calcium that gets into the
fish's diet, leads to better color, health, that sort of thing. The
sodium bentonite doesn't effect the calcium level.

I got some of the expensive kind, can't see that it did much for the
fish, but I have very little string algae this year and am growing
great water hyacinths.

We have so much calcium in our water already it seems odd that more
would do anything, but the ads were tempting.


--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always use
limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use the
sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is the
case.

"Roy" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:33:16 GMT, Charles
wrote:

snip
===
===I believe it's supposed to be the extra calcium that gets into the
===fish's diet, leads to better color, health, that sort of thing. The
===sodium bentonite doesn't effect the calcium level.

Thats possible...but I have a hard time believing that the koi can
take in and utilize the usual small amoaunt of calcium that would be
in a typical pond dose to do them any good.... However, folks use it
in various ways......mix it in with paste food, coat pelleted feeds
with it, broadcast it on the water etc....
===
===I got some of the expensive kind, can't see that it did much for the
===fish, but I have very little string algae this year and am growing
===great water hyacinths.

"Expensive kind" hmmmmmmmits all expensive from what I seen.....and I
can believe it does lock up a certain percentage of nutrients (mostly
phosphates) which would hinder most simple celled plants like algae
growth....
===
===We have so much calcium in our water already it seems odd that more
===would do anything, but the ads were tempting.

I also have to think this marketing ploy in regards to doing so many
marvelous things for a pond and fish is mostly hype, but it does have
some fringe benefits.......The so called needed minerals etc should
already be available if your feeding a quality balanced feed, and
water quality, well a proper filtraton systemn in a balance pond with
sufficient plants and not over loaded should also give the same
results of water quality without the addition of clay......

It seems that since most if not all champion koi come from Japans so
called Mud ponds, and the composition of these ponds are made up of
montmorillite (sp?) clay, (bentonite falls into this catagory) ponders
hope to establish the same chemical makeup of their pristine liner or
concrete ponds by usuing this clay......by making weekly
dosages.....Does it "really" work or is it all in ones own minds eye?
I know of folks that go to the pond pulls at harvest time in Japan and
also smuggle back the ponds mud in the hopes of seeding their home
ponds with the mud..........The only real benefit I can possibly see
is the collodial property of bentonite and its ability to act like a
floculent should theroetically bind up DOC and help with
turbidity....


In that case, it wouldn't matter whether one uses sodium or calcium
bentonite.

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:55:43 GMT, " George"
wrote:

(snip)

If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always use
limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use the
sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is the
case.


I don't think limestone would work in my water, it would probably
grow. Our city water is hard, it runs from 600 to over 1000 ppm tds.

I'm not promoting the koi clay, I just read a couple articles in
magazines and thought I'd give it a try. An uncontrolled experiment,
any results are meaningless, but it was something to do.

Snake oil maybe, but if your snake squeaks...

:-)


--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

I figured it wouldn't read right if it just rained. no?
Priss

You're still going to get a reading that might be affecting the fish/pond.
Course now I've forgotten the original problem. ( ~ jan

"So what's wrong with morning?" she asked quizzically, right eyebrow
raised. ) ~ jan




~Power to the Porg, Flow On!~

"Charles" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:55:43 GMT, " George"
wrote:

(snip)

If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always
use
limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use
the
sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is the
case.


I don't think limestone would work in my water, it would probably
grow. Our city water is hard, it runs from 600 to over 1000 ppm tds.

I'm not promoting the koi clay, I just read a couple articles in
magazines and thought I'd give it a try. An uncontrolled experiment,
any results are meaningless, but it was something to do.

Snake oil maybe, but if your snake squeaks...

:-)


--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

If your city drinking water has TDS of 600-1,000 ppm, it outside of EPA's
National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations, which set the recommended
maximum contaminant levels (mcl)for TDS in drinking water at 500 ppm.
These are non-enforceable guidelines at the Federal level. However, many
states have adopted them as part of their own drinking water standards.
You should check with your state to see what the allowable mcl for TDS is:

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mcl.html#mcls

See the chart at the bottom of the page.

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:36:04 GMT, " George"
wrote:


"Charles" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:55:43 GMT, " George"
wrote:

(snip)

If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always
use
limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use
the
sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is the
case.


I don't think limestone would work in my water, it would probably
grow. Our city water is hard, it runs from 600 to over 1000 ppm tds.

I'm not promoting the koi clay, I just read a couple articles in
magazines and thought I'd give it a try. An uncontrolled experiment,
any results are meaningless, but it was something to do.

Snake oil maybe, but if your snake squeaks...

:-)


--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

If your city drinking water has TDS of 600-1,000 ppm, it outside of EPA's
National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations, which set the recommended
maximum contaminant levels (mcl)for TDS in drinking water at 500 ppm.
These are non-enforceable guidelines at the Federal level. However, many
states have adopted them as part of their own drinking water standards.
You should check with your state to see what the allowable mcl for TDS is:

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mcl.html#mcls

See the chart at the bottom of the page.



The statement that the city sends out each year says they can go to
1000. They got their wrist slapped a couple years ago for not
reporting the 1040ppm that they sent out, got fined or something.

It's a good thing it's not enforceable, they'd have to turn off our
water.
--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

"Charles" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 21:36:04 GMT, " George"
wrote:


"Charles" wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:55:43 GMT, " George"
wrote:

(snip)

If calcium is the only reason to use one over the other, you can always
use
limestone in your waterworks (like waterfalls and such), and still use
the
sodium bentonite, if it is more readily available, which I believe is
the
case.


I don't think limestone would work in my water, it would probably
grow. Our city water is hard, it runs from 600 to over 1000 ppm tds.

I'm not promoting the koi clay, I just read a couple articles in
magazines and thought I'd give it a try. An uncontrolled experiment,
any results are meaningless, but it was something to do.

Snake oil maybe, but if your snake squeaks...

:-)


--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

If your city drinking water has TDS of 600-1,000 ppm, it outside of EPA's
National Secondary Drinking Water Regulations, which set the recommended
maximum contaminant levels (mcl)for TDS in drinking water at 500 ppm.
These are non-enforceable guidelines at the Federal level. However, many
states have adopted them as part of their own drinking water standards.
You should check with your state to see what the allowable mcl for TDS
is:

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/mcl.html#mcls

See the chart at the bottom of the page.



The statement that the city sends out each year says they can go to
1000. They got their wrist slapped a couple years ago for not
reporting the 1040ppm that they sent out, got fined or something.

It's a good thing it's not enforceable, they'd have to turn off our
water.
--
Charles

Does not play well with others.

Like I said, the Federal EPA's secondary drinking water standards are not
enforceable on the federal level. There are recommended levels. However,
many states use and enforce those standards. Perhaps yours doesn't.
Thankfully, mine does, because I have a marine aquarium and have a RO
filter that I use to make the water. I certainly wouldn't want to have to
change my sedimentation filter and carbon filter as often as it would take
with such high TDS. Our TDS concentration here is about 100 ppm. That has
a lot of benefits because it allows one to more easily control what is in
the pond water. It is much easier to add things than it is to try to remove
them.

Roy wrote:

Somehow that just does not surprise me one bit. I deal with foundry on
a pretty large scale but only as a hobby or small side line business,
and patronize quite a few forums related to foundry stuff. One or
two forums will always find those wanting to use kitty litter because
its cheaper and they only want 5 pounds not 50 or 100.......but they
do not know what kind of kitty litter it is to begin with........They
all assume its one and the same, be it deorderized or plain jane
"western", and insist on usiing it for refractory mix, as well as
greensand molds.........Most of these folks only ever play with
aluminum or lead, and most will still run out and buy kitty litter and
then come back latter complaiining that their refratory or greensand
....

Roy, that's way different from using it in a pond. I'm sure the chemical
properties differ, but you were told the "physical properties are nearly
identical". In a pond, for planting purposes, or for sealing a natural
bottom, it makes little to no difference.
--
derek

Really.your spinning your wheels if your gong to stop seeps and leaks
with calcium bentonite clay due to the fact the swelling rate is about
20x less.........and it takes a heap of the stuff.......Sodium is
whats recomended for leaks and seeps, in a natural pond, not be me,
but by Bentonite corp......and its not a gimick as both sodium or
calcium carry the same price....so there has to be a
difference.........Who evcer would want to thorow sodium into a liner
type pond with filters and plumbing is gong to bite the bullet one day
when the stuff all swells up and gets accumulated nthe filter pads and
plumbing lines internallay get a thick gooey film that catches
everything in it and flow is reduced........Calcium bentonite is for
small doses for so called pond and koi benefits, sodium is for natural
ponds and sealing up leaks and seeps.......

I can just about guarantee it would take 20x more calcium bentonite to
seal a pond made out of sand as compared to one made out of sand
sealed with sodium bentonite......Using calcium bentonite to seal a
pond is just not a recomended way......PERIOD.


On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 14:06:43 -0300, Derek Broughton
wrote:

===
===Roy wrote:
===
=== Somehow that just does not surprise me one bit. I deal with foundry on
=== a pretty large scale but only as a hobby or small side line business,
=== and patronize quite a few forums related to foundry stuff. One or
=== two forums will always find those wanting to use kitty litter because
=== its cheaper and they only want 5 pounds not 50 or 100.......but they
=== do not know what kind of kitty litter it is to begin with........They
=== all assume its one and the same, be it deorderized or plain jane
=== "western", and insist on usiing it for refractory mix, as well as
=== greensand molds.........Most of these folks only ever play with
=== aluminum or lead, and most will still run out and buy kitty litter and
=== then come back latter complaiining that their refratory or greensand
===...
===
===Roy, that's way different from using it in a pond. I'm sure the chemical
===properties differ, but you were told the "physical properties are nearly
===identical". In a pond, for planting purposes, or for sealing a natural
===bottom, it makes little to no difference.


==============================================
Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked!
"The original frugal ponder"
~~~~ }((((o ~~~~~~ }{{{{o ~~~~~~~ }(((((o