On 10/19/02 11:19 AM, in article ,
"Michelle Fulton" wrote:


"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

Oz wrote in message
...
Plan?

PLAN?????!!!!

Are you mad?

They barely have a plan to win the next election.

Ten years ahead might just as well be mars.


actually, ask them for it and ten years ahead they will promise you
Mars.

For your vote in the next election they will promise you anything you
damned well want,
provided you are willing to wait ten years for it.

That is the problem with politics, isn't it. So many are willing to lie to
get your vote :-( Of course, democracy is the lesser of evils, but it would
be nice if people were honest!

M


It's our own fault. The Libertarian Party in the U.S. would get the
government out of social programs. They think people should succeed or fail
on their own. Government should be limited to things like defense. How
many of us vote for them? I saw this quote on another newsgroup.

"The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can
bribe the people with their own money."
-- Alexis de Tocquevile

There's another adage "Don't tax you. Don't tax me. Tax the man behind the
tree".

Think how different farming would be if the government wasn't involved.


Dean





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Dean Hoffman wrote in message
...
On 10/19/02 11:19 AM, in article
,
"Michelle Fulton" wrote:


"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

Oz wrote in message
...
Plan?

PLAN?????!!!!

Are you mad?

They barely have a plan to win the next election.

Ten years ahead might just as well be mars.


actually, ask them for it and ten years ahead they will promise you
Mars.

For your vote in the next election they will promise you anything
you
damned well want,
provided you are willing to wait ten years for it.

That is the problem with politics, isn't it. So many are willing to
lie to
get your vote :-( Of course, democracy is the lesser of evils, but
it would
be nice if people were honest!

M


It's our own fault. The Libertarian Party in the U.S. would get
the
government out of social programs. They think people should succeed
or fail
on their own. Government should be limited to things like defense.
How
many of us vote for them? I saw this quote on another newsgroup.

"The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can
bribe the people with their own money."
-- Alexis de Tocquevile

There's another adage "Don't tax you. Don't tax me. Tax the man
behind the
tree".

Think how different farming would be if the government wasn't
involved.


Dean


the trouble is that unentangling government from farming in Europe is
going to take an awful long time. Americans don't realise just what we
had to do in Europe to win WW2, in American terms we all became
communists and politicians and civil servants got used to a command
economy. There has been a clawing back from the edge in places but our
big problem is not just the the obvious government controls but the less
obvious ones.
All the farm assurance rubbish that Oz was bewailing is actually led by
the Supermarkets. Walmart owns a UK supermarket chain, and in the UK it
will have its own farm assurance scheme that it expects people to jump
to.
It is going to take an awful lot to untangle it all.


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...
Just had a message from our Agricultural Buying Group Secretary that
there is a trip to South Dakota for farmers from the North of England
who are thinking of emigrating to farm somewhere with less paperwork
I know that out of our 40 strong buying group we have already had to go
to Canada.

I would look hard at Ecuador. Some west Texas farmers were thinking about
going there to find a place they could actually farm profitably. The
government has a good reputation for stability for that part of the world
and land, labor and equipment is cheap.

Gordon

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Webster"
Newsgroups: sci.agriculture
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: Farming in South Dakota


:
: Gordon Couger wrote in message
: news :
: "Jim Webster" wrote in message
: ...
:
: Gordon Couger wrote in message
: ...
:
: "Jim Webster" wrote in message
: ...
: Just had a message from our Agricultural Buying Group Secretary
: that
: there is a trip to South Dakota for farmers from the North of
: England
: who are thinking of emigrating to farm somewhere with less
: paperwork
: I know that out of our 40 strong buying group we have already
: had to
: go
: to Canada.
:
: I would look hard at Ecuador. Some west Texas farmers were
: thinking
: about
: going there to find a place they could actually farm profitably.
: The
: government has a good reputation for stability for that part of
: the
: world
: and land, labor and equipment is cheap.
:
: I'll mention it to them.
: Over here some are putting money in Eastern Europe. Hungary and
: Poland
: are apparently quite popular, further east you have problems in that
: there is virtually no concept of private ownership of land.
: Also many have doubts about the stability of the Ukraine and Russia
:
: Eight gauge shotguns, mouser and AK47's are spoken there. Good gun
: control
: is the answer. Being able to put two taps in 4 incises at 200 yard
: with the
: rifle and 50 yards with a pistol. The Ukraine has good land and a
: farming
: heritage. Mafia control of a armed rural area is a short term problem.
: Russia and the Ukraine know how to make some one pay for the
: privigalge to
: rule them better than any one in the world.
:
: Organize as greenpiece march in the rural Ukraine or Siberia. You can
: save
: money booking one way tickets. If I had some money to risk the
: Ukraine
: looks good. China better yet if they would let you in. Cuba is a
: sleeper as
: well.
:
: Poland et. all. are just short term stop gaps. The will be feeding at
: the
: same troughs as the rest in 10 years. I would be politically incorrect
: for
: Government to get on price for labor and pole another.
:
: My solution is to reopen the Newburg trials and give all Europe to
: Germany
: and tell then to make it work in 15 years or we hang you as a penalty
: for
: loosing the war, Screw up quicker and we hang you. And ask for
: volunteers.
: and every 5 years they sand election to see if the are hanged or not.
: The
: politicians are not properly motivated. The also have to walk the
: streets of
: town with out guard or armor. If an office is open two week draft some
: one.
:
: I bet the government straighten up and flies right then.
: Gordon
:
: I wonder if you have ever come across a really established very senior
: civil service. In the UK a minister (who is the political one) will
: perhaps stay in his job a year. Everything is run by an entrenched civil
: service. Remember that with a general election, very few people actually
: change position, there are comparatively few political appointees that
: actually matter. Politicians have political advisors who sometimes try
: to get into the line of command but are not real civil servants.
: So really European politicians have very different powers etc to
: American ones.
: Interestingly enough, when the UK Prime Minister has his chancellor
: stand up and announce the budget, he is telling you what will happen,
: unlike in the US where as far as I can tell, the Presidents budget is a
: basis for discussion and the final bill can be different to his
: proposals.
: On the other hand, effectively the UK Prime Ministers budget has already
: been vetted and passed by the civil service because they are the only
: ones who can work the system and understand the figures.

Our budget is prepared by civil servants the generaly added on to by
politicians adding their pork barrel issues or special deals. Most of the
core budget gets left alone. Unless some particular Item is shaved off of
it.

Our budget is wild assed guess with suplemtnenal bills passed, and money
tacked on other bills when needed. Money is freely stolen from the social
security fund or borrowed via treasury bills if there is a problem. There
very few agencies that can account for where the money went and those are
small.

In times of real crisis the fed just increases the money supply. When the
stock market tanked they lowered interest rates and turned on the faucet
http://www.thecapitalmarkets.com/Mac...y_supplym2.htm
I wonder what inflation really is?

The ones that can account for it will at the end of the year either have an
austerity program or a money burning spree to come in on budget. It is far
better to go over budget than to be under budget. If you are under budget
you didn't need the money and they take it away.

Your very effective civil service would be the death of our political way of
life. Some one might ask where the money went.

The bureau of Indian affairs has been in contempt of court for some time for
not being able to give an accounting of the monies they are supposed to be
holding for the Indian tribes. It is a story of continued misconduct for
centuries right up to today. One of the all to true jokes about Indian
claims is we stole this country from the fair and square. It is quite
possible that one of the presidents cabinet may go to jail for contempt to
get this off high center. It may take that to get the government to admit
that they don't have any records.

Our political system is supported by civil service just as yours. Some of
ours are excellent. the USGS United States Geographical Survey the oldest
science civil service organization over half the scientist never retire even
though they stop paying them at 70. The still come to work every day. A
scientist that works for government pay is really dedicated. The USDA is a
lot the same I know people well into their 70's still working. They know
their work is important and there are not new people to take their place.

The we have the damn social services that run the spectrum of dedicated
saving lives to ruining peoples lives on a whim. People end up on a web page
as child molester for sparking a kid harder than some social worker thinks
they should and the offender wisely takes a misdemeanor plea rather than
loose his life saving in a court battle.

Our agriculture civil service that interacts with the farmer has a local
board of farmers that has a great deal to say in how things are run. In
practice they have veto power over the employees in the offices including
the director. The same with punishments for infractions of the rules unless
it get to the point that really amounts to something. They would ride the
inspector that hassled OZ over a cracked window and a piece lumber on the
ground out of town on a rail were I live and have been. The area I farm it
was one of the freer running places but they all were more interested in
being sure the sprit of the law was being followed and that it is working
than looking for cracked widows.

Our acreages are farmer reported and spot 10% spot checked.

When the Soil conservation Service had a program that required a lot of
written plans the director asked me if there was any way to make it easier
on a computer. Well there were about a dozen common problems with about 3
way of solving each we wrote each up and he and the farmer would cut and
past most of the plan togeater and only have to do the work on the unique
problems and not on the same damn thing over and over. If some one came up
with a new idea for handling a problem that was agreeable it went in so it
was available to others.

Gordon

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

I think that this is a general rule of civil services, the extremes
might differ but not the theory, never be under budget or they will just
cut the budget next time.

This is an extremely common practice here, in any government intity.

M

Gordon Couger wrote in message
...



You much more a democrocy than we do. Our govement is a Republic run
by a
democratic olagacie. That is more democratic than the founder
inteneded. It
was intended to be a voting population of white proper oning males. I
see
nothing wrong with that if they woule make a few change to propery
owning
females or enuchs. Testostorone is not a good prequsite for office. I
fact
it is the poorist one I know. The idea of no tax with out repusentaton
is as
vald to day as it evey has been and if liberal get their way they
would vote
them selves the tresury. A law requiring every elgible voter to vote
is not
a bad ideal. Political parties suck green donkey donkey d*&)(S Our
finnce
methods sould put all the govermet in jail for 1 term and put a new
bunc in
and see if the learnedany thing. If we want a good goverment in the
USA we
have the means to fix it. Kill the SOBs and put in a better one.
Historicaly
that is not usualy sucsuffual but Teito, Franko and China have done
well to
date Most tripped in their owe plans.
--

certainly there is a strong argument for saying that anyone who wants
political power is by definition unfit to wield it.

--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

Gordon Couger wrote in message
...
Our budget is prepared by civil servants the generaly added on to by
politicians adding their pork barrel issues or special deals. Most of
the
core budget gets left alone. Unless some particular Item is shaved off
of
it.

I suspect in UK, party discipline is a lot stronger than in US so
individual pork barrel issues are less important. To a large extent the
MP has degenerated into being the parties man in the constituency rather
than the citizens representitive in parliament.
===================
The three house system and the fact that it take 61% and the blessing of the
majority leader of the senate to get things throug the senate has a big
effect on the way things work. There is a littll know deal that any member
of a commitiee can veto any issue befor teh commette. There are good side
and bad sides to the way things work over here.

You much more a democrocy than we do. Our govement is a Republic run by a
democratic olagacie. That is more democratic than the founder inteneded. It
was intended to be a voting population of white proper oning males. I see
nothing wrong with that if they woule make a few change to propery owning
females or enuchs. Testostorone is not a good prequsite for office. I fact
it is the poorist one I know. The idea of no tax with out repusentaton is as
vald to day as it evey has been and if liberal get their way they would vote
them selves the tresury. A law requiring every elgible voter to vote is not
a bad ideal. Political parties suck green donkey donkey d*&)(S Our finnce
methods sould put all the govermet in jail for 1 term and put a new bunc in
and see if the learnedany thing. If we want a good goverment in the USA we
have the means to fix it. Kill the SOBs and put in a better one. Historicaly
that is not usualy sucsuffual but Teito, Franko and China have done well to
date Most tripped in their owe plans.
--
Gordon

Gordon Couger
Stillwater, OK
www.couger.com/gcouger


Our budget is wild assed guess with suplemtnenal bills passed, and
money
tacked on other bills when needed. Money is freely stolen from the
social
security fund or borrowed via treasury bills if there is a problem.
There
very few agencies that can account for where the money went and those
are
small.

In times of real crisis the fed just increases the money supply. When
the
stock market tanked they lowered interest rates and turned on the
faucet

http://www.thecapitalmarkets.com/Mac...y_supplym2.htm
I wonder what inflation really is?

The ones that can account for it will at the end of the year either
have an
austerity program or a money burning spree to come in on budget. It
is far
better to go over budget than to be under budget. If you are under
budget
you didn't need the money and they take it away.

I think that this is a general rule of civil services, the extremes
might differ but not the theory, never be under budget or they will just
cut the budget next time.


Your very effective civil service would be the death of our political
way of
life. Some one might ask where the money went.

tracking the money is one thing that they are keen on and god help a UK
politician who even looks to have his hands on some that shouldn't be
his. We will destroy a politician who gets caught with a couple of
thousand pounds in brown envelopes.
Me, I would prefer it if we destroyed them for incompetance but you
cannot have everything.


The bureau of Indian affairs has been in contempt of court for some
time for
not being able to give an accounting of the monies they are supposed
to be
holding for the Indian tribes. It is a story of continued misconduct
for
centuries right up to today. One of the all to true jokes about Indian
claims is we stole this country from the fair and square. It is quite
possible that one of the presidents cabinet may go to jail for
contempt to
get this off high center. It may take that to get the government to
admit
that they don't have any records.

Our political system is supported by civil service just as yours. Some
of
ours are excellent. the USGS United States Geographical Survey the
oldest
science civil service organization over half the scientist never
retire even
though they stop paying them at 70. The still come to work every day.
A
scientist that works for government pay is really dedicated. The USDA
is a
lot the same I know people well into their 70's still working. They
know
their work is important and there are not new people to take their
place.


I don't think we have the two extremes that you mention.

The we have the damn social services that run the spectrum of
dedicated
saving lives to ruining peoples lives on a whim. People end up on a
web page
as child molester for sparking a kid harder than some social worker
thinks
they should and the offender wisely takes a misdemeanor plea rather
than
loose his life saving in a court battle.

Our agriculture civil service that interacts with the farmer has a
local
board of farmers that has a great deal to say in how things are run.
In
practice they have veto power over the employees in the offices
including
the director. The same with punishments for infractions of the rules
unless
it get to the point that really amounts to something. They would ride
the
inspector that hassled OZ over a cracked window and a piece lumber on
the
ground out of town on a rail were I live and have been. The area I
farm it
was one of the freer running places but they all were more interested
in
being sure the sprit of the law was being followed and that it is
working
than looking for cracked widows.

Our acreages are farmer reported and spot 10% spot checked.



we used to have something but the politicians and civil service
destroyed it because it didn't fit in.
You can see why they can now run tours to check out farming in South
Dakota!


--
Jim Webster

"The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind"

'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami'


Gordon