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#421
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 13:14:02 -0000, "Bootlaces" wrote:
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message snip Cash Income distribution, all farms HHHHHHHHHHHH £0 (12%) HHHHHHHHHH £0-£5,000 (10%) HHHHHHHHHH £5,000-£10,000 (10%) HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH £10,000-£20,000 (20%) HHHHHHHHHHHHHH £20,000-£30,000 (14%) HHHHHHHHH £30,000-£40,000 (9%) HHHHHHH £40,000-£50,000 (7%) HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH £50,000+ (19%) Average Cash Income £31,462 per farm I appear to have a problem with the summation of the %ages - they add up to 101. The source does make caveats for rounding errors. Sorry if I've missed something as I haven't been paying that much attention to this thread, but... Are there any actual absolute numbers rather than %ages? Yes, certainly, but not so directly, assuming it is the %ages above you want to translate into actual numbers of farms. However the sample represents all farms above 8 ESUs in England and Wales. That would be about 100,000 farms. (there are ~111,000 8ESU farms in Great Britain) Is there any finer detail on the £50k+ section? Not in the sense of detail I think you mean to imply (e.g. sliced into 50-75k/75-100k/100k subsections) |
#422
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message ... On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:20:46 -0000, "Michael Saunby" wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 10:19:58 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote: More than 10% of my perceived income is spent on accountants fees! One big annual complaint is the amount they try to transfer from *revenue* spend to *drawings* in order to satisfy some disbelief that anyone can live so cheaply. How cheaply can you live where you are? For comparison in some areas of Liverpool or Birmingham more than half of households have managed to cut their total annual living expenses to less than £10,000. I imagine that all such households are heavily subsidised snip Quantify your claim. I expect all households where one or more person receives income support will fall into the category of having living expenses of less than £10,000 - so they are certainly subsidised and will have several entitlements, e.g. free school meals, that don't have to be paid for as they get such benefits by virtue of receiving income support. What remains of your sub 10k category will pay very little tax, hence receive benefits such as health, education, waste collection, etc. at way below cost. The national statistics office give the *average* income in 2000 for households with 1 adult and children as £6,721 but the average disposable income for such households as £11,224. So it seems the UK government aren't actually prepared to let anyone with children try and live on a household disposable income of as little as £10,000. Clearly it happens, but that's because, as I said before many of the needs of such households are provide for in the likes of free use of public transport, cheap housing, free school meals.... Though as I said before, pensioners often manage to live very cheaply. Average disposable income for pensioners living alone is £7,727. (source http://www.statistics.gov.uk/downloa...002/AA2002.pdf) Michael Saunby |
#423
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
In article 1egT9.3736$xE1.541894@stones, Jill news@REMOVETHISkintalin
e.plus.com writes But you condemn all farmers as whingers Nope. -- Cheers Dave |
#424
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Dave Roberts wrote in message ... In article , Jim Webster writes Dave Roberts wrote in message Surely voluntary bankruptcy is the only realistic option for a business in this sort of state. Hanging on to see if things are better in ten years doesn't sound like a sound strategy. Tough break I know........... remember they are the children and grandchildren of people who did exactly the same thing. You tend to think in long term cycles. I wouldn't say they are right, but voluntary bankruptcy doesn't give them a lot while survival would. I would have thought that remains to be seen. It could be a case that it would be better to cut your losses. Only time will tell, Beckett and Haskins have been making fairly upbeat noises but then they would do wouldn't they ? well they are both pretty irrelevant. The big thing at the moment is the euro is rising against the £. Also if retail sales are back then the £ could take something of a fall. If we are going into a depression of any sort, the level of the £ is going to make things worse, because so much food is no longer produced here, we have exported production of a lot over the last three or four years. Getting out of farming at the right time would appear to be a tough judgement to make. very few have ever done it. The best rule was get out the year after the war ends but that broke down in 1945. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' Cheers Dave -- |
#425
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Dave Roberts wrote in message ... In article , David G. Bell writes On Wednesday, in article "Dave Roberts" wrote: Tough break I know........... But look at the point Jim makes about being "voluntarily homeless". Since the usual long-term farm tenancy automatically ceases in the event of bankrupty, and the house is part of the farm... Which is why I said tough break. The only way out would seem to be a move to rented accommodation and voluntary redundancy with a short term future at the mercy of the benefit system. what voluntary redundancy? They are self employeed remember. if they are lucky and the landlord wants rid of them he might buy them out (if he gets offered development) but the best they can hope for is that he waives delapidations -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' |
#426
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Dave Roberts wrote in message ... In article , David G. Bell writes Hindsight helps, of course, and getting out a couple of years ago would be better than getting out now, but just imagine starting the process a couple of months before FMD... I think this boils down to a question of timing to maximise your exit point. Nevertheless I still maintain it is not impossible to get out of farming, or change direction, but would concede that to do so is not easy to time perfectly. not impossible but awfully complicated. We have a lot of the same ties as non-farmers, plus extra ones. For example, It was suggested I apply for a particular job. Trouble is daughter is just at the wrong stage of GCSEs to change school. That is something that virtually everyone can face at one time or another. But on top of that a farmer can be tied into tenancy agreements. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' Cheers Dave -- |
#427
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Dave Roberts wrote in message ... In article , Jim Webster writes The costs forced on the business by poor phone connection, poor roads etc are significant. Just how bad is your phone connection ! well some days we have to put the phone down because the house down the lane are on the line and we can hear their conversation. Basically if things get more than a certain level of wet the short length of buried cable starts playing up and BT are not going to replace that length of cable. I have had to work at internet speeds of 2400. or come to that roads. I'm not trying to be awkward here, just wondering how these represent 'significant' business costs. Well I cannot accept 20 tonne artics but have to take 15 tonners. Therefore this years maize gluten cost me £5 a ton more. That is £225 just on one particular thing. Same when we were shipping cattle in or out. We couldn't use a big wagon, had to hire smaller ones, make two trips. Just on wagon access I suspect it could cost us about £1000 a year. I have a normal phone connection that is pretty good on the whole. Haven't lost use of it in six years anyway. In my business broadband would be very useful for sending digital pictures to clients, it would also improve the service I could give them. Lack of it is a nuisance but it would cost more to have it. Not sure that it would be cheaper than using the post so can't say lack of it causes me a significant business cost. The government is insisting on wanting us to submit stuff on line. I tried to download some data from the BCMS one night, and what should have taken perhaps a quarter an hour took over 45 minutes. Roads around here are pretty bad. Single track roads in and out of the village which aren't too bad though keeping your car clean is impossible. As soon as you get on to the dual track roads you have to run the gauntlet of folk driving in the middle of the road because the edges are in a dreadful state, all potholes. Again it doesn't cause me a significant business expense. My £1000 didn't include extra wear on vehicles etc. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' Cheers Dave -- Cheers Dave |
#428
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
In article , Jim Webster
writes what voluntary redundancy? They are self employeed remember. if they are lucky and the landlord wants rid of them he might buy them out (if he gets offered development) but the best they can hope for is that he waives delapidations Sorry, voluntary bankruptcy. Been up most of the night watching the cricket zzzzzzz....... -- Cheers Dave |
#429
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:41:34 -0000, "Michael Saunby"
wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:20:46 -0000, "Michael Saunby" wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . .. in some areas of Liverpool or Birmingham more than half of households have managed to cut their total annual living expenses to less than £10,000. I imagine that all such households are heavily subsidised snip Quantify your claim. I expect all households where one or more person receives income support will snip Michael, it should be easy, a one liner, to quantify that claim. |
#431
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
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#433
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
"Torsten Brinch" wrote in message ... On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 15:41:34 -0000, "Michael Saunby" wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 9 Jan 2003 11:20:46 -0000, "Michael Saunby" wrote: "Torsten Brinch" wrote in message .. . .. in some areas of Liverpool or Birmingham more than half of households have managed to cut their total annual living expenses to less than £10,000. I imagine that all such households are heavily subsidised snip Quantify your claim. I expect all households where one or more person receives income support will snip Michael, it should be easy, a one liner, to quantify that claim. Torsten, I can't even see why the question might arise. Do you not believe that such households are heavily subsidised? Where else might our taxes go? As for quantifying - the UK spends about 2,000 per adult on social security payments. If we take it that roughly 50% of the population pay, and the other 50% receive, then your lowest spending 50% are already in receipt of, on average, 4k per adult. The other benefits they receive in education and health provision are roughly matched to these, but everyone - rich and poor gets the same. So they get 4k each in spending money and at least another 2k in free services - some will get a great deal more. Not that I mind paying taxes to help these folks out, but it's stupid to imagine that they somehow represent the true cost of living in the UK. Michael Saunby |
#434
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
Dave Roberts wrote in message ... In article , Jim Webster writes what voluntary redundancy? They are self employeed remember. if they are lucky and the landlord wants rid of them he might buy them out (if he gets offered development) but the best they can hope for is that he waives delapidations Sorry, voluntary bankruptcy. fair enough, but remember they might have to wait to be evicted because otherwise they are voluntarily homeless. -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' |
#435
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UK farm profitability to jun 2002
"David G. Bell" wrote in message .. . On Thursday, in article "Jim Webster" wrote: Dave Roberts wrote in message ... Getting out of farming at the right time would appear to be a tough judgement to make. very few have ever done it. The best rule was get out the year after the war ends but that broke down in 1945. Jim, you ought to know better than that. There was a brief illusion of peace, but there was a war until about 1989. The rule still makes sense. true, absolutely true -- Jim Webster "The pasture of stupidity is unwholesome to mankind" 'Abd-ar-Rahman b. Muhammad b. Khaldun al-Hadrami' -- David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger. "Let me get this straight. You're the KGB's core AI, but you're afraid of a copyright infringement lawsuit over your translator semiotics?" From "Lobsters" by Charles Stross. |
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