"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Alan Holmes wrote:

I didn't know you could magnetise water!

You can magnetise pretty well anything at 10 tesla.

What is a tesla, does it hurt?

Alan



Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Alan Holmes wrote:

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Alan Holmes wrote:

I didn't know you could magnetise water!

You can magnetise pretty well anything at 10 tesla.

What is a tesla, does it hurt?

10,000 gauss, which underrates Gauss rather. I don't know whether
it would hurt people with metallic tooth fillings, but it is really
painful for anyone with steel implants or steel jewelry!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Alan Holmes wrote:

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Alan Holmes wrote:

I didn't know you could magnetise water!

You can magnetise pretty well anything at 10 tesla.

What is a tesla, does it hurt?

Only if you are wearing a mild steel belt buckle (or anything else
ferromagnetic). Really high power magnets are surrounded by warnings.

Telsa was a Russian guy heavily into arcs and sparks - and ultimately
responsible for the adoption of AC mains power distribution (Edison
wanted DC). He also gave his name to the SI unit of magnetic field strength.

The best neodymium rare earth alloy magnets these days are of order 1T.
I doubt very much if the scam artists are selling are selling anything
like top grade ones. Copper magnetic jewellry works by a powerful
placebo effect - the more you have paid for it the more effective you
will find it to be. The following is a reasonably fun toy science magnet
site.

http://www.dansdata.com/magnets.htm

High end superconducting magnets used for NMR imaging are around 1-2T
and analysis now can be made up to 20T or so. They affect the spins of
atomic nuclei rather than the puny electrons responsible for chemistry.
The world record synthetic magnetic field is about one order of
magnitude higher still.

If unshielded they wipe bank cards in the blink of an eye.

Regards,
Martin Brown

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
Alan Holmes wrote:

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Alan Holmes wrote:

I didn't know you could magnetise water!

You can magnetise pretty well anything at 10 tesla.

What is a tesla, does it hurt?

Only if you are wearing a mild steel belt buckle (or anything else
ferromagnetic). Really high power magnets are surrounded by warnings.

Telsa was a Russian guy heavily into arcs and sparks - and ultimately
responsible for the adoption of AC mains power distribution (Edison wanted
DC). He also gave his name to the SI unit of magnetic field strength.

The best neodymium rare earth alloy magnets these days are of order 1T. I
doubt very much if the scam artists are selling are selling anything like
top grade ones. Copper magnetic jewellry works by a powerful placebo
effect - the more you have paid for it the more effective you will find it
to be. The following is a reasonably fun toy science magnet site.

http://www.dansdata.com/magnets.htm

High end superconducting magnets used for NMR imaging are around 1-2T and
analysis now can be made up to 20T or so. They affect the spins of atomic
nuclei rather than the puny electrons responsible for chemistry. The world
record synthetic magnetic field is about one order of magnitude higher
still.

If unshielded they wipe bank cards in the blink of an eye.

Regards,
Martin Brown

That's why The Chemists look at the puny electrons by ESR ;-)
Big ain't always beautiful

John McMillan wrote:

snip ....
Well, it might be a "proven item", but I'm extremely sceptical
as to whether the "waterimp" or any other magnetic device can have the
slightest effect on water hardness or calcium carbonate deposition rate.
Please show me some unequivocal evidence, optionally followed up
with a tenable theory to explain why it does.

snip ...

I am highly sceptical of all such gadgets, along with 'the power of
crystals', copper bracelets and similar, not to mention christianity,
crop circles, pyramids and all the rest.

However, a few years ago we moved to an area with very hard water. I saw
an ad for a device to fit to the mains inlet to reduce hadness - as it
cost something like £12, I thought I'd give it a go. Much to my
surprise, it does work. Not 100% or even 90% but scale deposits are
significantly reduced - instead of having to clean the glass shower
screen after every shower, it now needs doing only every couple of
weeks. Interestingly, the heavy scale deposits in the electric kettle
started to dissolve. Again, they didn't disappear but were significantly
reduced.

The device consist of a box which clips onto the water mains inlet. It
has two wires coming out of it which are coiled tightly around the water
pipe. The box plugs into the mains. Two points to note on the
'instructions' were that it supposedly works more effectively with metal
water pipes and the wires should be coiled in opposition, i.e. one coil
clockwise, the other anticlockwise. The explanation as to how it worked
was mumbo jumbo but indicted that it was generating AC over a range of
frequencies.

I haven't any idea as to what it is doing but it is certainly working to
a limited extent. With some research, it could probably be made much
more efficient.

As to the waterimp, I can't see that a static magnetic field is going to
has the slightest effect on water chemistry. But, it doesn't seem
impossible for changing electromagnetic fields to change the chemistry
of the ions in the water.

Anyone understand the physics/chemistry of what it is doing?

--
Larry Stoter

The message
from Martin Brown contains these words:

The best neodymium rare earth alloy magnets these days are of order 1T.
I doubt very much if the scam artists are selling are selling anything
like top grade ones. Copper magnetic jewellry works by a powerful
placebo effect - the more you have paid for it the more effective you
will find it to be. The following is a reasonably fun toy science magnet
site.


For an even stronger effect, take several miles of niobium wire and wind
on a hollow core so as to produce an axial field.

Seal windings in a case, and introduce liquid nitrogen.

When the temperature of the windings has equalised with the liquid
nitrogen, their electrical resistance disappears, and a current can be
maintained by only overcoming the back-e.m.f. of the system.

You can then shoot electrons (or protons) at very high velocities,

(I used to work in a shop where we made niobium and tantalum.)

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

In article ,
Rusty Hinge 2 wrote:

For an even stronger effect, take several miles of niobium wire and wind
on a hollow core so as to produce an axial field.

Seal windings in a case, and introduce liquid nitrogen.

When the temperature of the windings has equalised with the liquid
nitrogen, their electrical resistance disappears, and a current can be
maintained by only overcoming the back-e.m.f. of the system.

Oh, really? I think that you have the wrong gas :-)

High-temperature superconductivity hasn't yet reached the liquid
nitrogen stage - it will make a BIG difference if and when it does,
as the cost differential between liquid helium and liquid nitrogen
is large. Liquid hydrogen is intermediate, but a slight fire and
explosion risk ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Larry Stoter wrote:
John McMillan wrote:

snip ....
Well, it might be a "proven item", but I'm extremely sceptical
as to whether the "waterimp" or any other magnetic device can have the
slightest effect on water hardness or calcium carbonate deposition rate.
Please show me some unequivocal evidence, optionally followed up
with a tenable theory to explain why it does.

snip ...

I am highly sceptical of all such gadgets, along with 'the power of
crystals', copper bracelets and similar, not to mention christianity,
crop circles, pyramids and all the rest.

However, a few years ago we moved to an area with very hard water. I saw
an ad for a device to fit to the mains inlet to reduce hadness - as it
cost something like £12, I thought I'd give it a go. Much to my
surprise, it does work. Not 100% or even 90% but scale deposits are
significantly reduced - instead of having to clean the glass shower
screen after every shower, it now needs doing only every couple of
weeks. Interestingly, the heavy scale deposits in the electric kettle
started to dissolve. Again, they didn't disappear but were significantly
reduced.

The device consist of a box which clips onto the water mains inlet. It
has two wires coming out of it which are coiled tightly around the water
pipe. The box plugs into the mains. Two points to note on the
'instructions' were that it supposedly works more effectively with metal
water pipes and the wires should be coiled in opposition, i.e. one coil
clockwise, the other anticlockwise. The explanation as to how it worked
was mumbo jumbo but indicted that it was generating AC over a range of
frequencies.

I haven't any idea as to what it is doing but it is certainly working to
a limited extent. With some research, it could probably be made much
more efficient.

As to the waterimp, I can't see that a static magnetic field is going to
has the slightest effect on water chemistry. But, it doesn't seem
impossible for changing electromagnetic fields to change the chemistry
of the ions in the water.

Did you compare your results with another identical (or at least similar)
house without the magnetic conditioner? How do you know that the water
didn't simply get a little less hard?

Magnetic conditioners do have a small, measureable effect I believe
but I thought it was too small to be significant or noticeable in
domestic usage.

--
Chris Green

Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
Rusty Hinge 2 wrote:

For an even stronger effect, take several miles of niobium wire and wind
on a hollow core so as to produce an axial field.

Seal windings in a case, and introduce liquid nitrogen.

When the temperature of the windings has equalised with the liquid
nitrogen, their electrical resistance disappears, and a current can be
maintained by only overcoming the back-e.m.f. of the system.

Oh, really? I think that you have the wrong gas :-)

Niobium tends to be immersed in liquid helium to be superconducting,
perhaps surrounded by a radiation sheild and a jacket of LN2.

High-temperature superconductivity hasn't yet reached the liquid
nitrogen stage - it will make a BIG difference if and when it does,
as the cost differential between liquid helium and liquid nitrogen
is large. Liquid hydrogen is intermediate, but a slight fire and
explosion risk ....

Most of the high Tc cermic superconductors are superconducting in LN2
but the problem is they are brittle ceramics and hard to make into
coils, and even worse when you try to make them carry large currents the
resulting magnetic fields take it out of the superconducting state.

http://www.answers.com/topic/high-te...uperconductors

It is feasible for a school chemistry lab with a pottery kiln in the art
department to make their own high Tc superconductor. You can then see it
float over a strong magnet by cooling it with LN2.

http://www.futurescience.com/scpart1.html

Toxicity of barium dust is the main worry in the preparation.
US schools info includes "do not eat" warnings.

Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:

Most of the high Tc cermic superconductors are superconducting in LN2
but the problem is they are brittle ceramics and hard to make into
coils, and even worse when you try to make them carry large currents the
resulting magnetic fields take it out of the superconducting state.

All right - I should have added "practical" :-)

Toxicity of barium dust is the main worry in the preparation.
US schools info includes "do not eat" warnings.

Which is, I suppose, why people are given barium meals and enemas
for intestinal X-rays. By the pint :-(

My understanding is that breathing barium dust is bad news, but so
is breathing large quantities of chalk, and that is a beneficial
foodstuff even if eaten in handfuls.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
In article ,
Rusty Hinge 2 wrote:

For an even stronger effect, take several miles of niobium wire and wind
on a hollow core so as to produce an axial field.

Seal windings in a case, and introduce liquid nitrogen.

When the temperature of the windings has equalised with the liquid
nitrogen, their electrical resistance disappears, and a current can be
maintained by only overcoming the back-e.m.f. of the system.

Oh, really? I think that you have the wrong gas :-)

I don't *THINK* so, though it was a long time ago. I think we supplied
all the niobium for one accelerator - I'm not sure if it was linea or a
torus, but ISTR it was for the torus in Culham Laboratory.

It might have been liquid helium - can't unforget now.

Whatever it was, it was cold. (We 'made' helium, oxygen, nitrogen,
hydrogen etc too.)

High-temperature superconductivity hasn't yet reached the liquid
nitrogen stage - it will make a BIG difference if and when it does,
as the cost differential between liquid helium and liquid nitrogen
is large. Liquid hydrogen is intermediate, but a slight fire and
explosion risk ....

Don't I know it?

Not liquid hydrogen, but hydrogen generated in a big bank of NiFe
accumulators was used to feed our furnace. One day it blew back, and the
fuel was burning between the inside and outside skins, and I was in the
works fire brigade.

Bit of a brown trouser job really: the hydrogen couldn't be cut off
because the hydrogen/air ratio would have decreased until an explosive
mixture was reached, and in those conditions, i.e., rather hot, there's
nothing that will put burning hydrogen out except perhaps, steam. Our
fire chief decided that since our fire engine didn't carry steam hoses
there was only one thing for it: carbon dioxide.

While that is reduced by hydrogen to carbon monoxide, the plan was to
cool the interior by the sudden expansion of the gas, and this worked -
fortunately. Everyone donned asbestos suits and one at a time, we
entered the furnace, released as much carbon dioxide as possible for as
long as we could bear, (a matter of a few seconds - the temperature was
well into four figures centigrade) retreated, to be replaced by the next
one.

All the time we were expecting the thing to blow...

But, I'm living proof that it didn't.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

In article ,
Rusty Hinge 2 wrote:

Bit of a brown trouser job really: ...

!!! Ruddy hell!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

In article ,
Rusty Hinge 2 wrote:

Bit of a brown trouser job really: ...

!!! Ruddy hell!

It was a good deal hotter than Hell, and attracted a lot of civvy
tenders and a flock of ambulances. Nearby shops were evacuated, but the
poor bloke across the roadway from the furnace had to remain to keep the
hydrogen supply running.

The civvy fire brigades never got involved unless we couldn't cope, and
in my time (on my shift) they never had to intervene. On another
occasion I remember six tenders waiting to pounce while about six of us
alighted from our our Land Rover tender and fought a fire in the
Titanium shop for six hours. I missed my lunchbreak and teabreak that
day innit.

There's not a lot you can do with titanium except isolate it by raking
it onto a bed of titanium oxide and covering it with tthe same stuff -
which fortunately was one of our products. If you drop a large enough
burning lump of titanium into a bucket of water, it continues to burn at
the bottom - vapourising the water to steam and reducing that to
hydrogen, which then burns on top - two fires for the price of one.

--
Rusty
Direct reply to: horrid dot squeak snailything zetnet point co period uk
Separator in search of a sig

Martin Brown writes:

Telsa was a Russian guy heavily into arcs and sparks

He'd probably strap you across a pair of high voltage terminals and
crank up the power if you called him Russian to his face, he was born
in Serbia.

Anthony

wrote:

Larry Stoter wrote:
John McMillan wrote:

snip ....
Well, it might be a "proven item", but I'm extremely sceptical
as to whether the "waterimp" or any other magnetic device can have the
slightest effect on water hardness or calcium carbonate deposition rate.
Please show me some unequivocal evidence, optionally followed up
with a tenable theory to explain why it does.

snip ...

I am highly sceptical of all such gadgets, along with 'the power of
crystals', copper bracelets and similar, not to mention christianity,
crop circles, pyramids and all the rest.

However, a few years ago we moved to an area with very hard water. I saw
an ad for a device to fit to the mains inlet to reduce hadness - as it
cost something like £12, I thought I'd give it a go. Much to my
surprise, it does work. Not 100% or even 90% but scale deposits are
significantly reduced - instead of having to clean the glass shower
screen after every shower, it now needs doing only every couple of
weeks. Interestingly, the heavy scale deposits in the electric kettle
started to dissolve. Again, they didn't disappear but were significantly
reduced.

The device consist of a box which clips onto the water mains inlet. It
has two wires coming out of it which are coiled tightly around the water
pipe. The box plugs into the mains. Two points to note on the
'instructions' were that it supposedly works more effectively with metal
water pipes and the wires should be coiled in opposition, i.e. one coil
clockwise, the other anticlockwise. The explanation as to how it worked
was mumbo jumbo but indicted that it was generating AC over a range of
frequencies.

I haven't any idea as to what it is doing but it is certainly working to
a limited extent. With some research, it could probably be made much
more efficient.

As to the waterimp, I can't see that a static magnetic field is going to
has the slightest effect on water chemistry. But, it doesn't seem
impossible for changing electromagnetic fields to change the chemistry
of the ions in the water.

Did you compare your results with another identical (or at least similar)
house without the magnetic conditioner? How do you know that the water
didn't simply get a little less hard?

Magnetic conditioners do have a small, measureable effect I believe
but I thought it was too small to be significant or noticeable in
domestic usage.

Turned it off for a few days ... Scale problem returned.

It's not a 'magnetic' conditioner (i.e. a permanent magnet). It seems to
be radiating an electromagnetic field of with a constantly changing
range of frequencies (in the range of a few kHz to 20 kHz) and
amplitudes. Scale originates from ionically dissociated compounds in the
water. Varying electromagnetic fields will potentially have a much more
significant and complex effect on the ions than a weak and static
magnetic field, generated by a permanent magnet. The suggestion that it
would work better with copper pipes makes sense as a conducting pipe
could act as a wave guide, extending the effect well beyond the
immediate vicinity of the device.

Its effect, while not 100% was very clear and noticable.

At a guess, I would say it would be most effective with a continuous
flow of water and that there would be an optimum flow rate, so the
situation in domestic premises where flow is very intermittent and
probably not at an optimum rate is not going to result in the maximum
effect.

Might be possible to take some measurements with a pH meter?

But, much to my surprise and disbelief, it does work. If it extends the
life of the heater elements in the washing machine and dishwasher by a
few years and means the shower screen only need cleaning every couple of
weeks, then it was a good 12 quid's worth :-)
--
Larry Stoter