Xref: news7 uk.rec.gardening:133658


OK, I know that you can't do it from early spring onwards, but you
can do it in summer. I assume that early spring is when the buds
start to swell (indicating that the sap is rising), or perhaps a
little before that, but when does the summer pruning season start?

The reason I ask is that I have a V. coignetae that I am training
over a pergola, and it will assuredly produce a lot of shoots that
will go in directions I don't want. I can see the buds opening ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

AFAIK you can pinch back unwanted shoots at any time - you just shouldn't
prune the established wood after late January because then the wood bleeds
when the sap starts to rise. This weakens the plant's growth in spring.
However, this is for best cropping of grapes - if you are growing an
architectural variety I guess you could prune at any time once vigorous
growth has started.
To 'nip it in the bud' you can just rub an unwanted bud out.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

OK, I know that you can't do it from early spring onwards, but you
can do it in summer. I assume that early spring is when the buds
start to swell (indicating that the sap is rising), or perhaps a
little before that, but when does the summer pruning season start?

The reason I ask is that I have a V. coignetae that I am training
over a pergola, and it will assuredly produce a lot of shoots that
will go in directions I don't want. I can see the buds opening ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , "David W.E. Roberts" writes:
| AFAIK you can pinch back unwanted shoots at any time - you just shouldn't
| prune the established wood after late January because then the wood bleeds
| when the sap starts to rise. This weakens the plant's growth in spring.
| However, this is for best cropping of grapes - if you are growing an
| architectural variety I guess you could prune at any time once vigorous
| growth has started.

Yes, but I shall need to cut back shoots. Not drastically, but
somewhat. Hence my question of when the sap run STOPS.

Incidentally, late January is an average - it could be a lot
different in different years and parts of the country.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:30:41 +0100, "David W.E. Roberts"
wrote:

To 'nip it in the bud' you can just rub an unwanted bud out.

Hey! I use this technique quite extensively. Esp. roses where I can
see the upstart is going to cut across the centre of the plant at an
ugly angle.

You may think I am a right regimental disciplinarian but actually I
favour the wild jumbly look - but only as an overall effect.

I imagine I am actually doing the plant a favour. The energy is
going into growth which is desired rather than into growth which will
in due time receive a massive wound by secateur. That little bud is so
rich with activity and all the chemical paraphernalia the plant itself
uses to combat pathogens .. or is that amateurish wishful thinking?

I was going to suggest it to the poster whose maple had received a
battering by the neighbour but decided I had written quite enough
already.


Huss


Grow a little garden

spam block - for real addy, reverse letters of second level domain.

On Sun, 6 Apr 2003, Nick Maclaren wrote:

OK, I know that you can't do it from early spring onwards, but you
can do it in summer. I assume that early spring is when the buds
start to swell (indicating that the sap is rising), or perhaps a
little before that, but when does the summer pruning season start?

Don't try to prune any mature wood now or at any time during the growing
season as it will bleed profusely. I've often wondered whether slapping
something like Arbrex on a new wound might stop the flow of sap
sufficiently but I've never been confident enough to try!

On the other hand green shoots can be removed at any time.

My vines' buds are already bursting. This is too early. Any frost will
get them and I'll lose the crop. I understand that, in places like
Chablis, they put little night-lights under the vines overnight when
there's a danger of frost.

--
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| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

On Mon, 7 Apr 2003, Nick Maclaren wrote:

Yes, but I shall need to cut back shoots. Not drastically, but
somewhat. Hence my question of when the sap run STOPS.

Incidentally, late January is an average - it could be a lot
different in different years and parts of the country.

Traditionally vines are pruned in December or January when the sap is at
its lowest. Circumstances often make me do some pruning in late February
and there is already a certainly amount of bleeding (I'm talking about
both southern England and northern France - I have vines in both
places). But when the buds begin to swell it's probably a good idea not
to do any drastic pruning.

What's drastic? Well, anything around the thickness of a pencil or
greater. Thinner shoots one can probably get away with.

A week ago I was finishing maintenance in my vineyard. I managed to
break one or two mature canes and they bled a drop every two or three
seconds. :-(

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article , "David W.E. Roberts"
writes:
| AFAIK you can pinch back unwanted shoots at any time - you just
shouldn't
| prune the established wood after late January because then the wood
bleeds
| when the sap starts to rise. This weakens the plant's growth in spring.
| However, this is for best cropping of grapes - if you are growing an
| architectural variety I guess you could prune at any time once vigorous
| growth has started.

Yes, but I shall need to cut back shoots. Not drastically, but
somewhat. Hence my question of when the sap run STOPS.

Incidentally, late January is an average - it could be a lot
different in different years and parts of the country.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
Nick,
we may be at cross purposes.

You originally posted "and it will assuredly produce a lot of shoots that
will go in directions I don't want. I can see the buds opening ...." so I
assumed you wanted to control new growth from current buds, not to remove
previous years growth.

Just to be clear, again AFAIK, anything growing this year from a bud (green
wood) can be zapped whilst small without harming the plant, and the earlier
you zap it (rubbing out buds, pinching out shoots) the less effort the plant
puts into it.
Anything that grew in a previous year (brown wood) will bleed and is best
pruned over winter, preferably after a few hard frosts.

AFAIK the sap run STOPS around December. :-)

According to my venerable Gillian Pearkes "Growing Grapes in Britain" (I
paraphrase a little) January and very early February are the ONLY times
mature ripe wood and canes can be pruned safely.
She also warns against waiting too long to nip out laterals, as again there
can be significant bleeding if the shoot is well grown.

Having said all that, this advice is aimed at getting the best vigour and
cropping out of grape vines.

If you are growing and pruning for architectural purposes then you will not
kill the plant whenever you prune - you will get bleeding and will weaken
the plant a bit and it will not be ideal but nevertheless 'coarse gardening'
still works in the main.

Cheers
Dave R

In article ,
"David W.E. Roberts" writes:
|
| we may be at cross purposes.

Very likely :-)

| You originally posted "and it will assuredly produce a lot of shoots that
| will go in directions I don't want. I can see the buds opening ...." so I
| assumed you wanted to control new growth from current buds, not to remove
| previous years growth.
|
| Just to be clear, again AFAIK, anything growing this year from a bud (green
| wood) can be zapped whilst small without harming the plant, and the earlier
| you zap it (rubbing out buds, pinching out shoots) the less effort the plant
| puts into it.

The trouble is that you can't tell leaf buds (which I want) from
shoot ones (which I don't) at this stage.

| Anything that grew in a previous year (brown wood) will bleed and is best
| pruned over winter, preferably after a few hard frosts.
|
| AFAIK the sap run STOPS around December. :-)

I will try to be cautious.

| She also warns against waiting too long to nip out laterals, as again there
| can be significant bleeding if the shoot is well grown.

This seems a bit odd for a palatable, unarmoured plant that has
developed in areas with browsing animals - and most species of
Vitis did! But plants are sometimes odd.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

snip
| She also warns against waiting too long to nip out laterals, as again
there
| can be significant bleeding if the shoot is well grown.

This seems a bit odd for a palatable, unarmoured plant that has
developed in areas with browsing animals - and most species of
Vitis did! But plants are sometimes odd.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Perhaps there is a growth point at which the branch is too thick to 'browse'
and this is the size at which it is vulnerable to pruning?
Young shoots are easily lost but thicker stems not?
Again perhaps the 'bleeding' is not that serious to a wild vine where much
of the plant is inside the tangle or out of reach - but more of a problem
where the vine is limited to one or two main stems and pruned to minimise
extraneous growth and focus on a few leaves and large bunches of fruit?

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Nick Maclaren wrote:

The trouble is that you can't tell leaf buds (which I want) from
shoot ones (which I don't) at this stage.

?? On a vine they're one and the same thing.

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

In article ,
David Rance wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Nick Maclaren wrote:

The trouble is that you can't tell leaf buds (which I want) from
shoot ones (which I don't) at this stage.

?? On a vine they're one and the same thing.

That's the point. As they develop, some will produce a leaf or two
and stop, and others will produce long shoots with leaves all along
them. Lacking prescience, I can't tell which buds will do which,
and there are places I want the former but not the latter.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Nick Maclaren wrote:

The trouble is that you can't tell leaf buds (which I want) from
shoot ones (which I don't) at this stage.

?? On a vine they're one and the same thing.

That's the point. As they develop, some will produce a leaf or two
and stop, and others will produce long shoots with leaves all along
them. Lacking prescience, I can't tell which buds will do which,
and there are places I want the former but not the latter.

How strange! I haven't come across that on vineyard vines. What
particular variety of vine do you have?

But I suppose you can wait until it's more apparent which is which and
then just remove the ones you don't want. It won't cause bleeding when
they're that young. In spite of what Gillian Pearkes writes in her book,
current year's shoots don't become mature enough to cause bleeding when
removed until well on into the autumn.

At least that's true on *my* vines. I suppose Murphy might dictate that
things are otherwise on yours! ;-)

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

In article ,
David Rance wrote:
On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Nick Maclaren wrote:

The trouble is that you can't tell leaf buds (which I want) from
shoot ones (which I don't) at this stage.

?? On a vine they're one and the same thing.

That's the point. As they develop, some will produce a leaf or two
and stop, and others will produce long shoots with leaves all along
them. Lacking prescience, I can't tell which buds will do which,
and there are places I want the former but not the latter.

How strange! I haven't come across that on vineyard vines. What
particular variety of vine do you have?

Hang on. I did say it was V. coignetae, but that may have got lost!

A couple of my V. vinifera do the same, but I think that it is a
matter of pruning rather than variety. I.e. two that are cuttings
from the same source behave differently - the one that I prune as
recommended for grapes grows in 'your' fashion and the one that is
hanging around in a pot grows unpredictably.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Nick Maclaren wrote:

How strange! I haven't come across that on vineyard vines. What
particular variety of vine do you have?

Hang on. I did say it was V. coignetae, but that may have got lost!

Ah, sorry! I missed the beginning of this thread.

A couple of my V. vinifera do the same, but I think that it is a
matter of pruning rather than variety. I.e. two that are cuttings
from the same source behave differently - the one that I prune as
recommended for grapes grows in 'your' fashion and the one that is
hanging around in a pot grows unpredictably.

Yes, that sounds about right. Does "your" vine produce any kind of
(edible) fruit? (I may have missed that as well.)


--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

In article ,
David Rance writes:
| On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Nick Maclaren wrote:
|
| A couple of my V. vinifera do the same, but I think that it is a
| matter of pruning rather than variety. I.e. two that are cuttings
| from the same source behave differently - the one that I prune as
| recommended for grapes grows in 'your' fashion and the one that is
| hanging around in a pot grows unpredictably.
|
| Yes, that sounds about right. Does "your" vine produce any kind of
| (edible) fruit? (I may have missed that as well.)

Not yet. Last summer was so miserable that they failed to set,
and the few that did failed to ripen. The one in a pot is being
kept for someone, and is unlikely to fruit.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.