Hi people, hope someone can offer some advise on how to get rid of ants in composts.

I've heard that a lot of the ant pesticides fail because the ants know that the chemicals in the pesticides are harmful and do not transfer to the queen, which is required in order to destroy the colony.
Apparently a method of overcoming this is to use 'Borax Crystals' found in cleaning soap powders, mix with sugar and water to form a solution and apply to the infected area.
This will then be transferred to the queen (assume because of the sugar content) by the other ants and she will die (the chemical mustn’t act instantly, otherwise the other ants wouldn't be able to transfer the Borax to the queen before they died).
When the queen is dead all the other ants apparently come rushing out, you can apply a general ant pesticide to destroy them.

Can anyone comment on the above if this is a good and permanent method?

i). Does it actually work?
ii). How long will Borax reside in the compost, and will this have any affects on plants where it will be eventually used?
iii). Any other alternative recommended pesticides that will destroy the colony?
iv). What, if any, are the harmful affects/problems that ants cause, to compost or plants (i'm only aware of ant mounds on lawns).
v). Organic methods, e.g. increasing heat, aeration, cooling down, boiling water, etc?
vi). Will the above method or any other chemical pesticides destroy any beneficial organisms within the compost and possibly plants when transferred


Much appreciated
Neilson

Compost bin type, green Darlek anaerobic variety

In article ,
neilson wrote:

Hi people, hope someone can offer some advise on how to get rid of ants
in composts.

Yes. Keep the compost damper. Ants (and woodlice) are a sign that it
is too dry, and DO NO HARM. Do not waste your time and money trying
to kill them.

To a first approximation, ants do no harm to gardens, and are usually
beneficial. Kill specific nests if they are especially irritating
(e.g. they raid the kitchen) but otherwise ignore them,


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"neilson" wrote in message
...

Hi people, hope someone can offer some advise on how to get rid of ants
in composts.

I've heard that a lot of the ant pesticides fail because the ants know
that the chemicals in the pesticides are harmful and do not transfer to
the queen, which is required in order to destroy the colony.
Apparently a method of overcoming this is to use 'Borax Crystals' found
in cleaning soap powders, mix with sugar and water to form a solution
and apply to the infected area.
This will then be transferred to the queen (assume because of the sugar
content) by the other ants and she will die (the chemical mustn't act
instantly, otherwise the other ants wouldn't be able to transfer the
Borax to the queen before they died).
When the queen is dead all the other ants apparently come rushing out,
you can apply a general ant pesticide to destroy them.

Can anyone comment on the above if this is a good and permanent
method?

i). Does it actually work?

I have not tried it myself but have seen a large amount of reporting that it
does.

ii). How long will Borax reside in the compost, and will this have any
affects on plants where it will be eventually used?

no, unless you use a huge amount and immediately use the compost on gardens
it will be fine. This is a bit of a guess but I believe borax will quite
quickly either leach out of the compost or, if not that, it will get mixed
up in such minute amounts it will not cause a problem. I use a borax and
washing soda mix in the laundry. If there were issues of residual poisoning
I would not use it. Borax is also a simple chemical and breaks down fairly
quickly in the environment (as opposed to complex chemicals that can
linger). Don't eat it, wash up after using it, don't use a ton of the stuff
and keep it in the compost a few weeks after using it and it will be fine.

iv). What, if any, are the harmful affects/problems that ants cause, to
compost or plants (i'm only aware of ant mounds on lawns).

None in compost I am aware of. They may infact be doing some good in there.
Unless your compost heap is at your back door or there is some other
nuisance value from the ants consider leaving them be. When you turn your
compost or dig it out you will most likely disturb the nest and they will
disperse. They may even be gone before the compost is ready.

rob

In article ,
George.com wrote:

.... Borax is also a simple chemical and breaks down fairly
quickly in the environment (as opposed to complex chemicals that can
linger).

Er, no. The most basic chemistry should tell you THAT!

Borax works as an ant killer because it is a boron salt. Too much
boron is harmful to animals, and seems to kill ant queens.

Borax is a hydrated sodium borate - i.e. a simple oxide of boron and
sodium. The boron and sodium may split or not (I don't know and it
doesn't matter). Sodium salts are ubiquitous and essential for all
life; boron is essential in small quantities for plant life, and is
widespread (obviously).

So, unless you go bonkers, all you will do is to increase the boron
content of the soil fractionally, which will have a negligible effect.
If you take a look on several of the very complex fertilisers, you
will often see that they include boron.

Similar remarks apply about the use of iron and copper compounds in
the garden; rumours have it that winegrowers in Bordeaux HAVE gone
bonkers and have increased the copper levels to ecologically harmful
levels, but I have never heard of another case. And even that one
may be an urban myth.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
George.com wrote:

... Borax is also a simple chemical and breaks down fairly
quickly in the environment (as opposed to complex chemicals that can
linger).

Er, no. The most basic chemistry should tell you THAT!

Borax works as an ant killer because it is a boron salt. Too much
boron is harmful to animals, and seems to kill ant queens.

Borax is a hydrated sodium borate - i.e. a simple oxide of boron and
sodium. The boron and sodium may split or not (I don't know and it
doesn't matter). Sodium salts are ubiquitous and essential for all
life; boron is essential in small quantities for plant life, and is
widespread (obviously).

So, unless you go bonkers, all you will do is to increase the boron
content of the soil fractionally, which will have a negligible effect.
If you take a look on several of the very complex fertilisers, you
will often see that they include boron.

Similar remarks apply about the use of iron and copper compounds in
the garden; rumours have it that winegrowers in Bordeaux HAVE gone
bonkers and have increased the copper levels to ecologically harmful
levels, but I have never heard of another case. And even that one
may be an urban myth.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Basic chemistry would also indicate that ionisation would take place;-) The
only real problem with using too much borax would be a considerable increase
in alkalinity, which may be a problem under certain circumstances.

neilson wrote:


Hi people, hope someone can offer some advise on how to get rid of ants
in composts.

I've heard that a lot of the ant pesticides fail because the ants know
that the chemicals in the pesticides are harmful and do not transfer to
the queen, which is required in order to destroy the colony.
Apparently a method of overcoming this is to use 'Borax Crystals' found
in cleaning soap powders, mix with sugar and water to form a solution
and apply to the infected area.
This will then be transferred to the queen (assume because of the sugar
content) by the other ants and she will die (the chemical mustn’t act
instantly, otherwise the other ants wouldn't be able to transfer the
Borax to the queen before they died).
When the queen is dead all the other ants apparently come rushing out,
you can apply a general ant pesticide to destroy them.

Can anyone comment on the above if this is a good and permanent
method?

i). Does it actually work?
ii). How long will Borax reside in the compost, and will this have any
affects on plants where it will be eventually used?
iii). Any other alternative recommended pesticides that will destroy
the colony?
iv). What, if any, are the harmful affects/problems that ants cause, to
compost or plants (i'm only aware of ant mounds on lawns).
v). Organic methods, e.g. increasing heat, aeration, cooling down,
boiling water, etc?
vi). Will the above method or any other chemical pesticides destroy any
beneficial organisms within the compost and possibly plants when
transferred


Much appreciated
Neilson


whilst ants in themselves wont harm the system there is a small problem you
may suffer by having them in the garden, that is they farm aphids and are
well known of transporting them to new shoot areas so the aphids can feed.
Ants milk aphids for sweet plant sap. To stop them in the compost bin try
keeping it moist or buy a rotating bin and turn it often which will disturb
them enough to relocate. Personally i like the little blighters as they
help destroy more pests than they relocate.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
George.com wrote:

... Borax is also a simple chemical and breaks down fairly
quickly in the environment (as opposed to complex chemicals that can
linger).

Er, no. The most basic chemistry should tell you THAT!

Nick, I realise that agreeing with me can be harmful to your reputation but
isn't that essentially what you are doing. I am interested as a learning
exercise how your (useful and understandable) explaination differs greatly
from what I have said. You are saying that borax (sodium borate) remains in
environment in that form?

Borax works as an ant killer because it is a boron salt. Too much
boron is harmful to animals, and seems to kill ant queens.

Borax is a hydrated sodium borate - i.e. a simple oxide of boron and
sodium. The boron and sodium may split or not (I don't know and it
doesn't matter). Sodium salts are ubiquitous and essential for all
life; boron is essential in small quantities for plant life, and is
widespread (obviously).

So, unless you go bonkers, all you will do is to increase the boron
content of the soil fractionally, which will have a negligible effect.
If you take a look on several of the very complex fertilisers, you
will often see that they include boron.

Similar remarks apply about the use of iron and copper compounds in
the garden; rumours have it that winegrowers in Bordeaux HAVE gone
bonkers and have increased the copper levels to ecologically harmful
levels, but I have never heard of another case. And even that one
may be an urban myth.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
"George.com" writes:
|
| ... Borax is also a simple chemical and breaks down fairly
| quickly in the environment (as opposed to complex chemicals that can
| linger).
|
| Er, no. The most basic chemistry should tell you THAT!
|
| Nick, I realise that agreeing with me can be harmful to your reputation but
| isn't that essentially what you are doing. I am interested as a learning
| exercise how your (useful and understandable) explaination differs greatly
| from what I have said. You are saying that borax (sodium borate) remains in
| environment in that form?

No. I have no idea what happens to it but, as the active ingredient is
an element (boron), it isn't going to break down quickly (or at all) in
any environment that plants or animals will survive in.

The point is that high levels in the diet of insects causes sterility
or death (whichever it is) and that very low levels in the soil are
essential to plant life. Very like copper and iron in that respect.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
"George.com" writes:
[...]
You are saying that borax (sodium borate) remains in environment in
that form?

No. I have no idea what happens to it but, as the active ingredient
is an element (boron), it isn't going to break down quickly (or at
all) in any environment that plants or animals will survive in.

The point is that high levels in the diet of insects causes sterility
or death (whichever it is) and that very low levels in the soil are
essential to plant life. Very like copper and iron in that respect.

In any case, commercial ant-killers such as Nippon are just borax in a
sugar syrup, as far as I know. So one might as well just buy Nippon
unless one needs borax for other purposes.

--
Mike.

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
"George.com" writes:
[...]
You are saying that borax (sodium borate) remains in environment in
that form?

No. I have no idea what happens to it but, as the active ingredient
is an element (boron), it isn't going to break down quickly (or at
all) in any environment that plants or animals will survive in.

The point is that high levels in the diet of insects causes sterility
or death (whichever it is) and that very low levels in the soil are
essential to plant life. Very like copper and iron in that respect.

In any case, commercial ant-killers such as Nippon are just borax in a
sugar syrup, as far as I know. So one might as well just buy Nippon
unless one needs borax for other purposes.

--
Mike.


You are right about Nippon containing borax.
I have a suspicion that mixing your own formulation contravenes "Rules and
Regs" ? Something about householders not being competent to get it right.

Rupert (W.Yorkshire) wrote:
"Mike Lyle" [...]
In any case, commercial ant-killers such as Nippon are just borax in
a sugar syrup, as far as I know. So one might as well just buy Nippon
unless one needs borax for other purposes.

You are right about Nippon containing borax.
I have a suspicion that mixing your own formulation contravenes
"Rules and Regs" ? Something about householders not being competent
to get it right.

As I've said before, I don't think these rules and regs have any bearing
at all on what a private citizen does in his own home for his own
purposes. Start selling stuff, or polluting the environment, or making
explosives or something, and it's different -- and quite right, too:
you'd fire a government which didn't try to control it.

--
Mike.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"George.com" writes:
|
| ... Borax is also a simple chemical and breaks down fairly
| quickly in the environment (as opposed to complex chemicals that can
| linger).
|
| Er, no. The most basic chemistry should tell you THAT!
|
| Nick, I realise that agreeing with me can be harmful to your reputation
but
| isn't that essentially what you are doing. I am interested as a
learning
| exercise how your (useful and understandable) explaination differs
greatly
| from what I have said. You are saying that borax (sodium borate)
remains in
| environment in that form?

No. I have no idea what happens to it but, as the active ingredient is
an element (boron), it isn't going to break down quickly (or at all) in
any environment that plants or animals will survive in.

The point is that high levels in the diet of insects causes sterility
or death (whichever it is) and that very low levels in the soil are
essential to plant life. Very like copper and iron in that respect.

yes, thanks. I should have said that borax is a simple compound that does
not remain in the environment as a complex chemical or that it is a
naturally occurring chemical/mineral (?). My language wasn't exacting.

rob

Ok, thanks for all your feedback, much appreciated.
I think i'll try and disperse the ants by adding moisture and turning regularly then may be looking out for some of that 'Nippon' stuff you have suggested, if the latter doesn't work.

How much moisture, e.g. half a watering can once a week roughly, or does it depend on the compost volume (think my Darleks about 340 litre), and is pretty much full at the moment.

What if i've positioned my compost bin ontop of an existing ant nest, resite the bin somewhere else?

Would it be a good idea to drill some holes in the bin to create some aeration, also allowing water to penetrate naturally.

I've seen these mixing sticks on certain gardening sites and brochures, could be helpfull with this type of compost bin as doesn't require emptying the contents.
Although I am planning to build the wooden type variety at some stage.

Cheers neilson

Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
neilson wrote:

Hi people, hope someone can offer some advise on how to get rid of ants
in composts.

Yes. Keep the compost damper. Ants (and woodlice) are a sign that it
is too dry, and DO NO HARM

The latter was my first gut response to this post.

The former I am surprised about. My compost heap was part OK, part
soggy mess, and it was RIDDLED with woodlice in both parts. But there
was a lot of other fauna, too. Slugs, snails, millepedes and
centipedes (they move too fast for me to count the legs... so either or
both), earth worms by the tonne, small mini-maggot like critters, small
flies, and many other creepy crawlies - but no ants that I noticed.
I hope re-starting it with lots of shredded paper and twig chips
layered through will help it dry out and break down better, though.

Cat(h)