Hi,

We have a northish piece of land. Its currently 1 spades depth of grit
& pebbles & then what looks like clay. We would like to have a go at
growing veg.

If I remove all the pebbles & grit (1 spades depth) & break up the
clay, mix in loads of compost & buy some soil, will it be any good for
growing veg?

Thanks for your help & advice.

p.s. I know its not a good time for growing veg but at least if you
experts think its possible I can get on with digging up all the
pebbles & preparing the soil it will be ready to go when the weather
warms up.

Its 10m by 5m in size.

Thanks

tina wrote:
We have a northish piece of land. Its currently 1 spades depth of grit
& pebbles & then what looks like clay. We would like to have a go at
growing veg.
If I remove all the pebbles & grit (1 spades depth) & break up the
clay, mix in loads of compost & buy some soil, will it be any good for
growing veg?
Thanks for your help & advice.
p.s. I know its not a good time for growing veg but at least if you
experts think its possible I can get on with digging up all the
pebbles & preparing the soil it will be ready to go when the weather
warms up.
Its 10m by 5m in size.

I don't see why not. You can grow veg in pots, bags and any sort of
containers if the soil is good though! Now is the best time to prepare
your soil. I suspect the area was some sort of drive?! Sounds strange
to have so much pebble and grit )

Top soil and manure on top would be ideal to replace the pebbles. To
get your soil going, potatoes are the best thing as it will help to
break the clay. Have you made a rough plan of your rectangle and
thought about beds and rotating your crops every year? You could
include flowers and herbs all around which would be beneficial for
insects polinators and keeping pests away. I would the soil and clay as
much as you can and lay with well rotten manure on top and leave it to
do it's thing until end of Feb. Then you can start planting your
potatoes and select other areas for anything else you like to grow. The
other areas should be nicely raked over to a fine tilth, to sow your
seeds.

On 13 Oct 2006 11:02:43 -0700, "La Puce" wrote:
Yes it was a drive.

No we havent planned anything yet.

Were new to growing veg so thats the first i have heard about crop
rotation.

Things we eat & therefore would like to attempt to grow are. Carrots,
brocolli, potatoes, sweet corn (if thats possible). Peas. small
squashes, we love butternut squash, but have no idea where to start.

We need to do a fair bit of research aswe havnt really grown anything
before so feel a bit daunted.

But i did read something somewhere that said its a good idea to lay
paths through to make weeding easier so will probably buy some paving
slabs to divide up the plot.

Will it be ok to leave the clay base in & upu soil on top. Its only 1
spade depth down, or should I dig into the clay to try and break it
up?

Thank you very much for your advice.


tina wrote:
We have a northish piece of land. Its currently 1 spades depth of grit
& pebbles & then what looks like clay. We would like to have a go at
growing veg.
If I remove all the pebbles & grit (1 spades depth) & break up the
clay, mix in loads of compost & buy some soil, will it be any good for
growing veg?
Thanks for your help & advice.
p.s. I know its not a good time for growing veg but at least if you
experts think its possible I can get on with digging up all the
pebbles & preparing the soil it will be ready to go when the weather
warms up.
Its 10m by 5m in size.

I don't see why not. You can grow veg in pots, bags and any sort of
containers if the soil is good though! Now is the best time to prepare
your soil. I suspect the area was some sort of drive?! Sounds strange
to have so much pebble and grit )

Top soil and manure on top would be ideal to replace the pebbles. To
get your soil going, potatoes are the best thing as it will help to
break the clay. Have you made a rough plan of your rectangle and
thought about beds and rotating your crops every year? You could
include flowers and herbs all around which would be beneficial for
insects polinators and keeping pests away. I would the soil and clay as
much as you can and lay with well rotten manure on top and leave it to
do it's thing until end of Feb. Then you can start planting your
potatoes and select other areas for anything else you like to grow. The
other areas should be nicely raked over to a fine tilth, to sow your
seeds.

"tina" wrote in message

Were new to growing veg so thats the first i have heard about crop
rotation.

Crop rotation doesn't seem to be much of an issue for gardeners who
grow organically because they work on the theory of feeding the soil
not the crop. Don't get too worried about it at this stage because
you'll learn as you go, just don't ever plant the same veg in the one
spot for year after year after year. That way you won't deplete the
soil and encourage pests and diseases that are attracted to that
particular plant.

Things we eat & therefore would like to attempt to grow are.
Carrots,
brocolli, potatoes, sweet corn (if thats possible). Peas. small
squashes, we love butternut squash, but have no idea where to start.

Forget the carrots at this stage although you will be able to as time
goes on and you develop soil depth be able to plant increasingly long
carrots. The little stubby ones (chatonnay - they are stubby little
mites and I hthnk it's a style of carrot rather than a specific
variety - but don't quote me on that, would be the first ones to
attempt).

All the other should grow but don't expect miracle crops in the first
few years.

We need to do a fair bit of research aswe havnt really grown
anything
before so feel a bit daunted.

Everyone had to start somewhere. I started here with a small grave
sized bed in pure clay which is interspersed with shale and quartz
rocks. I had no top soil at all just an inch of different coloured
clay. The different colour was due to old rotted grass. For the
first few years it was called "The Tomb of the Unknown Gardener" and
that was exactly how it looked.

Even after 15 years I still don't bother growing carrots but I grow
all the other things you mention and much more.

Start small so you don't get daunted and grow easy things like chard
and herbs and even garden/culinary related flowers (such as
calendulas). Build up the area each year and as you can get your
hands on materials. Do it well, keep it under control (thus small to
begin with) and it won't be depressing. And buy seedlings as they are
easier for beginners or use big seeds that other more experienced
gardeners say are easy to grow - eg beetroot.

Nothing is more discouraging than biting off more than you can chew
and seeing a sick looking veg bed.

But i did read something somewhere that said its a good idea to lay
paths through to make weeding easier so will probably buy some
paving
slabs to divide up the plot.

My advice would be to keep the beds narrow so that you can reach into
them from either side and don't have to walk on them. I also don't
like hard paving but that is a personal preference. I use the paths
as composting spots. I spread sawdust/pine needles/cardboard/old
cotton or woollen clothing onto the paths and then just drop weeds
onto them if I'm too lazy/busy to put them into the compost
heaps/chook or if the heaps are full. Once that is rotted down it
goes on the beds and is topped with manure then topped with
straw/hay/autumn leaves and left to fallow over winter.

I've never bought in soil as I've heard too many horror stories of
bringing in nasty weeds (plus I'm cheap and very fussy about what goes
into my garden). My veg garden is a messy looking spot but it works.
I see anything that has once lived as being a source of food for the
soil microbes and they work like Trojans turning all sorts of bletch
into soil.

When I first started there was not a worm in sight and I don't think
that there were too many microbes,
biota to be found - just sun baked clay that was set like concrete and
had to be chipped with a pickaxe. I could only manage to get half to
one inch indentation in the clay and then I'd water and go back and
have another go at it over subsequent days. The soil is very
different now.

Will it be ok to leave the clay base in & upu soil on top. Its only
1
spade depth down, or should I dig into the clay to try and break it
up?

If you can or add gypsum as a clay breaker and let the soil dwellers
do your work for you. Clay is rich with minerals and a good base.
There is an old gardening expression: "Clay, backbreak: Sand,
heartbreak".

Puce has recommended growing potatoes and they are considered good
soil breakers but it sounds like your soil is more like mine was to
begin with and putting spuds in such an environment is going to be
very hard work.

If you choose to grow spuds, I'd recommend a different approach that
will teach you a lot. I'd recommend that you grow them under straw.
This means just putting the spuds on the top of the soil and then
topping them with a generous layer of hay (lucerne by preference),
topping that layer with good old poop and then topping it with more
hay. Then water and add more straw as needed to keep the spuds
covered. Potatoes, like tomatoes will put out more roots from t he
stem as you build the growing media up around them. The pile should
be a minimum of half a metre to begin with - it quicly settles and
when the spuds break through you can add more hay.

The reason why I say this will teach you something is that you will
end up with what is effectively compost and a crop of spuds as well.
If you are new to veg gardening then the wonder of rotting and soil
creation is revealed to you with limited effort on your part and the
soil under the spud spot can then be used as a bed for the next year
and you'll be impressed with how much the clay under the spot has
improved.

On other piece of advice I'd give would be to decide early on if you
want to be an organic gardener or if you want to use the panoply of
chemical aids available to you.

I'd recommend organic as I've found it's frugal and easier than using
chemicals and if you have a good range of life in your garden then it
is surprising how much work the birds, spiders, soil microbes, lizards
etc will do for you. And they do it for free and give interest and
free entertainment as well. For example, each year I get aphids on my
roses but each year the wrens clean them up and they disappear in less
than 2 weeks. If I sprayed then I'd have to do it all season long.

Another trick an old gardener got me onto was to use prerotted bales
of hay. I buy good hay (lucerne [aka alfalfa] or clover by
preference) and then leave them lying in the garden so the weather can
get to them on the soil and then turn then regularly. Fresh hay seems
to be slightly growth inhibiting but once the rain and the soil
contact gets to work and they start rotting slightly, it makes
wonderful mulch. And do mulch so that you don't have any exposed soil
(but only once the soil has warmed up or needs to be kept warm).
Exposed soil grows weeds quickly whereas even a thin layer of muclh
stops the light from getting the weed seeds germinating and helps keep
the soil temperature even, stops soil splash etc.

Enjoy!

"tina" wrote
We have a northish piece of land. Its currently 1 spades depth of grit
& pebbles & then what looks like clay. We would like to have a go at
growing veg.

If I remove all the pebbles & grit (1 spades depth) & break up the
clay, mix in loads of compost & buy some soil, will it be any good for
growing veg?

Thanks for your help & advice.

p.s. I know its not a good time for growing veg but at least if you
experts think its possible I can get on with digging up all the
pebbles & preparing the soil it will be ready to go when the weather
warms up.

Its 10m by 5m in size.

Good size to start with, not too big but big enough to grow some serious
veg.

Depends what sort of clay, but if it's a clay soil it is a very fertile soil
as it hold on to any nutrients and does not let the rain wash them away.
Whilst it can be slow to warm in the spring and a pain in the back for the
gardener, my experience is that with some effort it becomes an excellent
growing medium. One tip is to choose the time for digging carefully, too wet
and you will not achieve much except a visit to the doctor, dry and it will
be like concrete.

Are you sure you need to remove the grit? It would help break up the clay
and aid drainage if you incorporated it with the clay sub soil.
Get as much organic material, compost, old manure, old potting compost etc
worked into the clay soil and a rotovator is excellent for this as it chops
up the soil and aerates it.
You will also need to test the pH of the soil and cheap kits are available
for you to do this, if the soil is too acid then you will need to use lime
to raise the pH towards 7 which is neutral and OK for most veg. Lime also
helps break up the clay for a couple of years, gypsum has the same effect
but it lasts longer.

Planting veg is an all year round thing, whilst there is a frantic period in
spring/early summer now is about the time to plant Garlic, Broad Beans in
January, and the shallot and onion sets go in in February/March. :-)

Whilst I'm not an Organic grower (I'd rather spray than lose a crop) a book
I can recommend is "The Complete Manual of Organic Gardening" edited by
Basil Caplan. ISBN. 0 7472 7830 X. Out of print but copies are still
available. Read it and you will learn so much in a short time.

Do remember it's meant to be fun too, so experiment with different crops and
varieties and if one doesn't work try something else. Best of all ask on
URG. :-)


--
Regards
Bob H
17mls W. of London.UK

tina wrote:
Yes it was a drive.

Well, I'm very happy to hear that the car is gone and that the drive is
being dug up!!

Things we eat & therefore would like to attempt to grow are. Carrots,
brocolli, potatoes, sweet corn (if thats possible). Peas. small
squashes, we love butternut squash, but have no idea where to start.

You've just got lots of fantastic advice - and there will be much more
to come. A good start is a diary/journal. You need to plan your plots,
see where you will grow your veg, note down ideas, advices, doodles,
stick in there images, articles and your wishes too, even if they seem
ambitious now. Stick to the choice of vegs you have to start with and
perhaps by February you'll feel you can add others, find out when to
plant them or where to sow them and next to which other crop it will
grow better as a companion plant.

You might even consider raised beds the following year if you feel your
soil is too difficult. However it might not be all clay everywhere. I
have a patch of about 2m2 in my plot which is stubornly heavy clay
whilst everywhere else it is not.

Get yourself a good book like Bob said. There's no better time to curl
up and read but during winter's evenings )

"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote in message
...
"tina" wrote in message

Were new to growing veg so thats the first i have heard about crop
rotation.

Crop rotation doesn't seem to be much of an issue for gardeners who
grow organically because they work on the theory of feeding the soil
not the crop. Don't get too worried about it at this stage because
you'll learn as you go, just don't ever plant the same veg in the one
spot for year after year after year. That way you won't deplete the
soil and encourage pests and diseases that are attracted to that
particular plant.

Things we eat & therefore would like to attempt to grow are.
Carrots,
brocolli, potatoes, sweet corn (if thats possible). Peas. small
squashes, we love butternut squash, but have no idea where to start.

Forget the carrots at this stage although you will be able to as time
goes on and you develop soil depth be able to plant increasingly long
carrots. The little stubby ones (chatonnay - they are stubby little
mites and I hthnk it's a style of carrot rather than a specific
variety - but don't quote me on that, would be the first ones to
attempt).

All the other should grow but don't expect miracle crops in the first
few years.

We need to do a fair bit of research aswe havnt really grown
anything
before so feel a bit daunted.

Everyone had to start somewhere. I started here with a small grave
sized bed in pure clay which is interspersed with shale and quartz
rocks. I had no top soil at all just an inch of different coloured
clay. The different colour was due to old rotted grass. For the
first few years it was called "The Tomb of the Unknown Gardener" and
that was exactly how it looked.

Even after 15 years I still don't bother growing carrots but I grow
all the other things you mention and much more.

Start small so you don't get daunted and grow easy things like chard
and herbs and even garden/culinary related flowers (such as
calendulas). Build up the area each year and as you can get your
hands on materials. Do it well, keep it under control (thus small to
begin with) and it won't be depressing. And buy seedlings as they are
easier for beginners or use big seeds that other more experienced
gardeners say are easy to grow - eg beetroot.

Nothing is more discouraging than biting off more than you can chew
and seeing a sick looking veg bed.

But i did read something somewhere that said its a good idea to lay
paths through to make weeding easier so will probably buy some
paving
slabs to divide up the plot.

My advice would be to keep the beds narrow so that you can reach into
them from either side and don't have to walk on them. I also don't
like hard paving but that is a personal preference. I use the paths
as composting spots. I spread sawdust/pine needles/cardboard/old
cotton or woollen clothing onto the paths and then just drop weeds
onto them if I'm too lazy/busy to put them into the compost
heaps/chook or if the heaps are full. Once that is rotted down it
goes on the beds and is topped with manure then topped with
straw/hay/autumn leaves and left to fallow over winter.

I've never bought in soil as I've heard too many horror stories of
bringing in nasty weeds (plus I'm cheap and very fussy about what goes
into my garden). My veg garden is a messy looking spot but it works.
I see anything that has once lived as being a source of food for the
soil microbes and they work like Trojans turning all sorts of bletch
into soil.

When I first started there was not a worm in sight and I don't think
that there were too many microbes,
biota to be found - just sun baked clay that was set like concrete and
had to be chipped with a pickaxe. I could only manage to get half to
one inch indentation in the clay and then I'd water and go back and
have another go at it over subsequent days. The soil is very
different now.

Will it be ok to leave the clay base in & upu soil on top. Its only
1
spade depth down, or should I dig into the clay to try and break it
up?

If you can or add gypsum as a clay breaker and let the soil dwellers
do your work for you. Clay is rich with minerals and a good base.
There is an old gardening expression: "Clay, backbreak: Sand,
heartbreak".

Puce has recommended growing potatoes and they are considered good
soil breakers but it sounds like your soil is more like mine was to
begin with and putting spuds in such an environment is going to be
very hard work.

If you choose to grow spuds, I'd recommend a different approach that
will teach you a lot. I'd recommend that you grow them under straw.
This means just putting the spuds on the top of the soil and then
topping them with a generous layer of hay (lucerne by preference),
topping that layer with good old poop and then topping it with more
hay. Then water and add more straw as needed to keep the spuds
covered. Potatoes, like tomatoes will put out more roots from t he
stem as you build the growing media up around them. The pile should
be a minimum of half a metre to begin with - it quicly settles and
when the spuds break through you can add more hay.

The reason why I say this will teach you something is that you will
end up with what is effectively compost and a crop of spuds as well.
If you are new to veg gardening then the wonder of rotting and soil
creation is revealed to you with limited effort on your part and the
soil under the spud spot can then be used as a bed for the next year
and you'll be impressed with how much the clay under the spot has
improved.

On other piece of advice I'd give would be to decide early on if you
want to be an organic gardener or if you want to use the panoply of
chemical aids available to you.

I'd recommend organic as I've found it's frugal and easier than using
chemicals and if you have a good range of life in your garden then it
is surprising how much work the birds, spiders, soil microbes, lizards
etc will do for you. And they do it for free and give interest and
free entertainment as well. For example, each year I get aphids on my
roses but each year the wrens clean them up and they disappear in less
than 2 weeks. If I sprayed then I'd have to do it all season long.

Another trick an old gardener got me onto was to use prerotted bales
of hay. I buy good hay (lucerne [aka alfalfa] or clover by
preference) and then leave them lying in the garden so the weather can
get to them on the soil and then turn then regularly. Fresh hay seems
to be slightly growth inhibiting but once the rain and the soil
contact gets to work and they start rotting slightly, it makes
wonderful mulch. And do mulch so that you don't have any exposed soil
(but only once the soil has warmed up or needs to be kept warm).
Exposed soil grows weeds quickly whereas even a thin layer of muclh
stops the light from getting the weed seeds germinating and helps keep
the soil temperature even, stops soil splash etc.

Enjoy!


I don't veg garden but after your excellent post I am getting very tempted.
We ain't that big on Lizards for pest control in the UK:-)

"Rupert (W.Yorkshire)" wrote in message
"Farm1" please@askifyouwannaknow wrote some drivel in message

I don't veg garden but after your excellent post I am getting very
tempted.

Thank you for the kind words and pleased to hear that you feel
inspired :-))

We ain't that big on Lizards for pest control in the UK:-)

Yeah, but you probably have other things as good and you don't have
venomous snakes :-))

Mind you, the big Blue Tongue lizards also LOVE strawberries. The
rotten sods just look at me as they open their mouths and schlep in a
huge strawb with their big blue tongues. But on the plus side, they
also eat snails and slugs and are interesting if not exactly pretty.

Farm1 wrote:
Another trick an old gardener got me onto was to use prerotted bales
of hay.

Fabulous stuff hay. Bringing our bale to the lotty tomorrow (minus the
cat though ).

http://cjoint.com/?kobVyUMfop

tina wrote:
We have a northish piece of land.

The advice you have been given is good, and I would think twice before
getting rid of the pebbly/gritty layer: you may welcome some drainage
in years to come, and it might be useful to double-dig it into the
subsoil before improving the top with compost. Bought in top-soil can
be expensive, depending where you live, while well-rotted horse muck
and stable straw can often be had for nothing for the taking away. The
issue of the grit/pebble really depends on the exact detail of the
makeup, and a few words on usenet might not be enough to get detailed
advice.

So I am going to offer another bit of advice, rather than contradict
the rest.

Join the local allotment association. Unless they are very odd, they
won~t mind that you don't have an allotment, it sounds allotment sized!
AAs are a good source of discount materials, free cuttings,
information, advice, and friendship. Since everyone will be local they
will know a lot about what does well in the area etc.

On 13 Oct 2006 17:45:31 -0700, wrote:

The advice you have been given is good, and I would think twice before
getting rid of the pebbly/gritty layer:

My fault sorry. I havent given you enough info. Sorry. I apologise.

The pebbles / grit are currently a sort of drive for parking the cars.

Its a solid layer, nothing but pebbles & grit, 1 spade depths down.

Thanks for all your advice though. Its great to speak to people who
have so much experence & knowledge. Thanks very much.

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:46:11 +0100, tina wrote:

My fault sorry. I havent given you enough info. Sorry. I apologise.

The pebbles / grit are currently a sort of drive for parking the cars.

Its a solid layer, nothing but pebbles & grit, 1 spade depths down.

Thanks for all your advice though. Its great to speak to people who
have so much experence & knowledge. Thanks very much.

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:46:11 +0100, tina wrote:

Great advice !! So I'm off to buy myself a good sturdy spade & some
good gloves so i can get digging up all thoe pebbles!! save me going
to the gym :-).

Whats your advice on how big the individual plots be?

Once again thanks for all your advice.

"La Puce" wrote in message
ups.com...

tina wrote:
Yes it was a drive.

Well, I'm very happy to hear that the car is gone and that the drive is
being dug up!!

Things we eat & therefore would like to attempt to grow are. Carrots,
brocolli, potatoes, sweet corn (if thats possible). Peas. small
squashes, we love butternut squash, but have no idea where to start.

You've just got lots of fantastic advice - and there will be much more
to come. A good start is a diary/journal. You need to plan your plots,
see where you will grow your veg, note down ideas, advices, doodles,
stick in there images, articles and your wishes too, even if they seem
ambitious now. Stick to the choice of vegs you have to start with and
perhaps by February you'll feel you can add others, find out when to
plant them or where to sow them and next to which other crop it will
grow better as a companion plant.

You might even consider raised beds the following year if you feel your
soil is too difficult. However it might not be all clay everywhere. I
have a patch of about 2m2 in my plot which is stubornly heavy clay
whilst everywhere else it is not.

Get yourself a good book like Bob said. There's no better time to curl
up and read but during winter's evenings )

there is also a 'no dig' gardeneing system that works on a raised bed type
of thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_dig_gardening
It's an Australian idea but works elsewhere.

Leaflets etc at:
http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/scho...k/leaflets.htm

There was a thread about it recently, but I can't seem to find it...........
Jenny

JennyC wrote:
there is also a 'no dig' gardeneing system that works on a raised bed type
of thing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_dig_gardening
It's an Australian idea but works elsewhere.

At the risk of repeating myself (I just crashed formidably), my good
friend is queen of no dig and I keep telling her she's a lazy so and so
;o) I can't imagine Tina's plot requiring a pickaxe and the timing of
her project couldn't be more spot on. A good management now with the
winter to come to break the soil is ideal. I use lots of mulch in the
summer to keep the moisture in when I disappear for 3 weeks galivanting
around europe.

There was a thread about it recently, but I can't seem to find it...........

Yes, around March this year we had a good dig at it ;o) It went on
about using cut grass around tatoes and other no dig mulching
available. This year I've got a nice straw bale to play with. I will
reluctantly bring it to the lotty this afternoon - we all love sitting
on it in the veranda, especially Fifi, as it's so warm and smells
devine. We had about 20 of them in July for a project in central Manc.
It was fantastic to see all those bales in a city centre )