Derek Moody wrote:

We've done this one to death many times Pearl (Lotus). Jim even offered you
the use of enough of his land to demonstrate your principles and show him,
and the rest of the farming community, where they were going wrong.

It is kind of silly to present these childish challenges since they are
totally meaningless. People concerned for animals often become
vegetarians because of cruel conditions of factory farming and to
contrast the horrible conditions animals have to suffer because the
meat industry tortures these animals from birth to slaughter with the
free grazing of animals is absurd. The reality of factory farming is so
horrible that one has to wonder how any of these people are able to
sleep at night or look their wives and children in the face. How would
they like if they and their loved ones had to live under the conditions
they force those helpless animals to live under? Has anyone made a
study to find out if there is a connection to society becoming
insensitive to the horrors of factory farming and the rise of brutal
crimes especially against those who are too weak to defend themselves?

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...


except that they are still eating more and more meat

Some are. Others, many millions, are starving because land that had
supported them sustainably for generations was expropriated by and
for a meat-eating 'wealthy elite'. You ignore it, because -you-
'profit'.

sure, and explain how I profit out of meat production in china?

I didn't say that you profited from meat production in China.

'.. two-thirds of all soybeans and meal imported into the UK came
from Brazil, the primary source of non GM soy in the world.
..
http://www.pgeconomics.co.uk/pdf/PGE...ments.01.p df

'In Central and South America, ever-increasing amounts of land
are being used to grow soya beans and grain for export - to be
used as animal feed. In Brazil, 23 per cent of the cultivated land
is currently being used to produced soya beans, of which nearly
half are for export (13). The Oxfam Poverty Report explains that
the subsidised expansion of the EU's dairy and livestock industry
has created a huge demand for high protein animal feedstuffs and
that the demand has in part been met through the expansion of
large-scale, mechanised soya production in Brazil. Smallholder
producers of beans and staple foods in the southern part of the
country have been displaced to make way for giant soya estates.
Soya has now become the country's major agricultural export,
"however, it is a trading arrangement which had proved
considerably more efficient at feeding European cattle than
with maintaining the livelihoods of poor Brazilians." (16)
..'
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/feedtheworld.htm

And I hardly think the Chinese shopper who buys a live chicken and
takes
it
home and wrings the neck of the animal themselves is going to worry
about
whether it was killed in a heartless and industrialised fashion

These people are eating more meat, Chinese government planners are
ensuring
that they have the output to supply people what they want

Chinese planners are worried. You posted the following on 09 January,
(it's from: http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=35910 ).

exactly, and they are worried that they will not be able to provide them
with enough meat, so are making sure they can

By abandoning an alternative fuel, and increasing imports of grain?
Grain from where? See what you snipped. What you've ignored.

they aren't worried about a long of whinging westerners, if they want a
bizarre ideology they already have one, they don't need yours

What "bizarre ideology" do I have? A healthy diet? Food for all?
Recovering and thriving wildlife and ecosystems? Oh, excuse me!

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...


except that they are still eating more and more meat

Some are. Others, many millions, are starving because land that had
supported them sustainably for generations was expropriated by and
for a meat-eating 'wealthy elite'. You ignore it, because -you-
'profit'.

sure, and explain how I profit out of meat production in china?

I didn't say that you profited from meat production in China.

and now explain why more chinese eating meat, many getting a decent diet for
the first time makes them a wealthy elite


'.. two-thirds of all soybeans and meal imported into the UK came
from Brazil, the primary source of non GM soy in the world.
..
http://www.pgeconomics.co.uk/pdf/PGE...ments.01.p df

'In Central and South America, ever-increasing amounts of land
are being used to grow soya beans and grain for export - to be
used as animal feed.

exactly, because these people are determined to eat more meat. Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who cannot be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to the
Latin American groups and moan at them
Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to have their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price

Jim Webster

wrote in message
ups.com...
Derek Moody wrote:

We've done this one to death many times Pearl (Lotus). Jim even offered
you
the use of enough of his land to demonstrate your principles and show
him,
and the rest of the farming community, where they were going wrong.

It is kind of silly to present these childish challenges since they are
totally meaningless. People concerned for animals often become
vegetarians because of cruel conditions of factory farming and to
contrast the horrible conditions animals have to suffer because the
meat industry tortures these animals from birth to slaughter with the
free grazing of animals is absurd. #

but fortunately in the rest of the world where people aren't so stupid as to
believe the propaganda of lobbyists who depend on their subscriptions, this
doesn't wash
The chinese housewife who takes home a live chicken to kill herself isn't
going to be bothered by that sort of crap

Jim Webster

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 12:51:28 +0000, Derek Moody
wrote:

In article , pearl
wrote:
"Jim Webster" wrote in message news:50m60pF1fu3
...

One instance. Your sort of business has put millions in an early grave.

Jim's sort of business has fed millions of people in cities who would
otherwise have gone hungry - or worse.

A colossal part of the Earth's land surface has been devoted to pasture,

Because a colossal part of the Earth's land surface will not grow any crop
suitable for human consumption. Sheep, for example, can roam many acres of
upland grass and convert a very thin supply of nutrient into a form that
humans can eat.

No one is talking about the highly destructive hill farming, which
even the farmers don't like. You are well aware of this Webster, stop
trying to shift the goalposts again.

A colossal part of the earth productive land, is given over to
pasture. That clear enough for you Jim?

We've done this one to death many times Pearl (Lotus).

You lied, and bullshitted Jim.

Jim even offered you
the use of enough of his land to demonstrate your principles and show him,
and the rest of the farming community, where they were going wrong.

You are Jim, Jim.

You declined then when you realised the impossibility of the task you had
set yourself and so Jim has continued to graze that same land extensively
(look it up - Lotus, don't guess) and to convert its product into food.

Why should we show you how to farm? You've been told the way forward.
If you cannot do it, or are unwilling, then hand your land over to
someone who can. You can retire on the state benefit system you have
milked all your life!

On 11 Jan 2007 18:00:47 -0800, wrote:

Derek Moody wrote:

We've done this one to death many times Pearl (Lotus). Jim even offered you
the use of enough of his land to demonstrate your principles and show him,
and the rest of the farming community, where they were going wrong.

It is kind of silly to present these childish challenges since they are
totally meaningless. People concerned for animals often become
vegetarians because of cruel conditions of factory farming and to
contrast the horrible conditions animals have to suffer because the
meat industry tortures these animals from birth to slaughter with the
free grazing of animals is absurd. The reality of factory farming is so
horrible that one has to wonder how any of these people are able to
sleep at night or look their wives and children in the face. How would
they like if they and their loved ones had to live under the conditions
they force those helpless animals to live under? Has anyone made a
study to find out if there is a connection to society becoming
insensitive to the horrors of factory farming and the rise of brutal
crimes especially against those who are too weak to defend themselves?

Child abuse, animal abuse, adult abuse, environment abuse are usually
linked. I think it's possibly due to some form of inbreeding.

(o)(o) o o wrote:
On 11 Jan 2007 18:00:47 -0800, wrote:

Derek Moody wrote:

We've done this one to death many times Pearl (Lotus). Jim even offered you
the use of enough of his land to demonstrate your principles and show him,
and the rest of the farming community, where they were going wrong.

It is kind of silly to present these childish challenges since they are
totally meaningless. People concerned for animals often become
vegetarians because of cruel conditions of factory farming and to
contrast the horrible conditions animals have to suffer because the
meat industry tortures these animals from birth to slaughter with the
free grazing of animals is absurd. The reality of factory farming is so
horrible that one has to wonder how any of these people are able to
sleep at night or look their wives and children in the face. How would
they like if they and their loved ones had to live under the conditions
they force those helpless animals to live under? Has anyone made a
study to find out if there is a connection to society becoming
insensitive to the horrors of factory farming and the rise of brutal
crimes especially against those who are too weak to defend themselves?

Child abuse, animal abuse, adult abuse, environment abuse are usually
linked. I think it's possibly due to some form of inbreeding.

They have shown that most wife and child abusers and serial killers
started out torturing animals. To me, factory farming is the worst kind
of animal torture and I find it hard to believe that it does not impact
those who inflict those horrible things on helpless animals.

On 12 Jan 2007 00:58:33 -0800, wrote:

(o)(o) o o wrote:
On 11 Jan 2007 18:00:47 -0800, wrote:

Derek Moody wrote:

We've done this one to death many times Pearl (Lotus). Jim even offered you
the use of enough of his land to demonstrate your principles and show him,
and the rest of the farming community, where they were going wrong.

It is kind of silly to present these childish challenges since they are
totally meaningless. People concerned for animals often become
vegetarians because of cruel conditions of factory farming and to
contrast the horrible conditions animals have to suffer because the
meat industry tortures these animals from birth to slaughter with the
free grazing of animals is absurd. The reality of factory farming is so
horrible that one has to wonder how any of these people are able to
sleep at night or look their wives and children in the face. How would
they like if they and their loved ones had to live under the conditions
they force those helpless animals to live under? Has anyone made a
study to find out if there is a connection to society becoming
insensitive to the horrors of factory farming and the rise of brutal
crimes especially against those who are too weak to defend themselves?

Child abuse, animal abuse, adult abuse, environment abuse are usually
linked. I think it's possibly due to some form of inbreeding.

They have shown that most wife and child abusers and serial killers
started out torturing animals. To me, factory farming is the worst kind
of animal torture and I find it hard to believe that it does not impact
those who inflict those horrible things on helpless animals.

If they are prepared to carry out that kind of task, they obviously
don't care about themselves, and if they don't care about themselves,
they care nothing for anything else.

wrote in message
oups.com...

They have shown that most wife and child abusers and serial killers
started out torturing animals.

yep, and PETA has got teams that go round murdering peoples pets, so that
puts them in their place
Don't worry
If you are really lucky then the major food producing countries out there
will sell you enough to eat. But they will make you pay for it because as
they get richer, they might want to eat more meat themselves (and they don't
believe the propaganda put out by a lot of activists with a vested interest)
or they might need the fuel.
But if you are really lucky, they might sell you some

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster" wrote in message ...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...


except that they are still eating more and more meat

Some are. Others, many millions, are starving because land that had
supported them sustainably for generations was expropriated by and
for a meat-eating 'wealthy elite'. You ignore it, because -you-
'profit'.

sure, and explain how I profit out of meat production in china?

I didn't say that you profited from meat production in China.

and now explain why more chinese eating meat, many getting a decent diet for
the first time makes them a wealthy elite

".. diseases of affluence are found in the more densely populated
rural areas nearer the seacoast where industrial activity and literacy
rates are higher ..."

'In many developing nations there has been a rapid increase in the
incidence of cardiovascular disease, obesity, diabetes, lung cancer
and a host of other health disorders concomitant with a rise in
economic affluence (Pellett, 1989). In contrast with the
communicable and infectious diseases affecting the rural poor,
the more economically privileged urban sectors in these countries
suffer from a rising prevalence of chronic degenerative diseases
appropriately referred to as 'diseases of misdevelopment' by
Dumont (1989). Not only do these chronic diseases have a
debilitating effect on a productive segment of the active elite but
also the costs of treating these diseases tend to absorb a
disproportionate share of the public health resources in favor of
an already privileged social group. It is therefore of utmost
importance to developing nations to avoid creating a new and
costly pathology soon after emerging from the scourge of
infectious and nutritional deficiency diseases (Pellett, 1989).
...
China has developed a unique system of decentralized planning
which has recently incorporated private initiative in agriculture,
industry, and trade. From the early 1950s to the mid-1970s the
Chinese government had strict control over agricultural
production and trade. It gave priority to staple foods over
preferred foods (legumes, meats, fruits) in order to ensure an
adequate supply of essential grain for all provinces. Until
recently government policy favored direct consumption of
grain over consumption of animal products requiring feedgrains
(Jamison and Piazza, 1987). However, policy has changed
markedly in the last few years. With the consolidation of the
new 'production responsibility system' the government expects
a rapid growth in the livestock sector (World Bank, 1985).
Cattle production will be limited by the carrying capacity of
China's grasslands, which are already overgrazed. Poultry and
pig production are more dependent on the availability of feed
concentrates. Such production has been increasing for the last
ten years, and there is now a concern that it might be necessary
to monitor the consumption of high-animal-fat food to prevent
deleterious effects both economic and nutritional.
....'
http://www.mcspotlight.org/media/rep...ll_china2.html

'.. two-thirds of all soybeans and meal imported into the UK came
from Brazil, the primary source of non GM soy in the world.
..
http://www.pgeconomics.co.uk/pdf/PGE...ments.01.p df

'In Central and South America, ever-increasing amounts of land
are being used to grow soya beans and grain for export - to be
used as animal feed.

exactly, because these people are determined to eat more meat.

We're talking about -your- profits here, jimmy.

Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who cannot be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to have their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price

"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese
and European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to
two-thirds of the population"...."Where the majority of people
have been made too poor to buy the food grown on their own
country's soil, those who control productive resources will, not
surprisingly, orient their production to more lucrative markets
abroad."

Pro-trade policies like that of the North American Free Trade
Agreement (NAFTA) and the General Agreement on Tariffs
and Trade (GATT) promotes export crop production and
suppresses basic food production. Foreign aid from industrialised
countries has supported such free trade and free market policies.
... '
http://www.psrast.org/nowohu.htm

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

"pearl" wrote in message
...


except that they are still eating more and more meat

Some are. Others, many millions, are starving because land that had
supported them sustainably for generations was expropriated by and
for a meat-eating 'wealthy elite'. You ignore it, because -you-
'profit'.

sure, and explain how I profit out of meat production in china?

I didn't say that you profited from meat production in China.

and now explain why more chinese eating meat, many getting a decent diet
for
the first time makes them a wealthy elite

".. diseases of affluence are found in the more densely populated
rural areas nearer the seacoast where industrial activity and literacy
rates are higher ..."

don't tell me, tell the Chinese,
they have tried the diseases of poverty and weren't happy with them, so they
have obviously decided to give the others a go

'In Central and South America, ever-increasing amounts of land
are being used to grow soya beans and grain for export - to be
used as animal feed.

exactly, because these people are determined to eat more meat.

We're talking about -your- profits here, jimmy.

exactly
All those biofuel plants will produce all sorts of byproducts that make
excellent animal food. I suppose we could turn maize gluten into kibble for
vegetarians, but cattle love it.



Obviously it
will mean they have less to export to those whinging in Europe who cannot
be
bothered to grow their own food, but don't moan to me, go on line to the
Latin American groups and moan at them

You buy their produce.

No, actually no, not in the last twelve months.


Sadly for you, the meat-eating 'wealthy elite' now includes the massive
majority of the people in these countries, and they are going to have
their
meat and you are the one who is going to have to pay more for your food.
They now have three choices
They can eat meat
They can convert grain to fuel
they can sell it to you at an increasingly expensive price

"While soybean exports boomed in Brazil to feed Japanese
and European livestock - hunger spread from one-third to
two-thirds of the population"...."Where the majority of people
have been made too poor to buy the food grown on their own
country's soil, those who control productive resources will, not
surprisingly, orient their production to more lucrative markets
abroad."

boy you are out of touch

work it out on your fingers
The Argentinians stopped exporting beef in 2006 to allow the price at home
to fall to ensure Argentinians had plenty of beef
As for Brazilians, their growth forecasts are that as their country develops
the amount of meat eaten by the local population will increase as they get
wealthier

They will get wealthier because Brazil is self sufficient in food and
converting a lot of it into energy to reduce its dependence on imported oil
They also are developing a pretty good manufacturing industry.
So their population is pretty well guaranteed enough to eat and enough fuel
to shift the food.
On the other hand, you have to explain exactly what you have to offer that
means the Brazilians will sell food to you.
What can you give them in return?
After all we have seen the Argentinians stop exports because they didn't
have enough for home consumption, perhaps the Brazilians will decide next
year to export no soya because they need it to feed their people and their
livestock
Perhqaps they will decide to cut their soya acreage to what will supply
themselves and instead grow sugar for ethanol. After all 50% of their sugar
already goes in that direction
Why should they worry about you and your need for soya?

Not only that but according to a strategic review of Europe's energy
situation published by the Commission, EU member states will have to meet a
10% target for the amount of transport fuel coming from biofuels by 2020.
This will be part of a legally binding target of 20% of European energy
coming from renewable sources.
This in itself produces interesting knock on effects.

The UK uses about 37.5 million tons a year.

If we were to replace ten percent of this with bio diesel produced from Oil
Seed Rape, one hectare would produce 1.45 tonnes fuel.

Therefore to meet the 10% target will take 2.5 million hectares, which is
just less than half the 5.7 million hectares of arable land we have.

As an aside at this point, all the biofuel currently being produced has the
margarine
manufacturers in a spin because their raw material has shot up in price.
Soon it may be cheaper to use butter than marge.Indeed margarine production
may stop altogether because we haven't enough cheap vegetable oil


Now obviously all that OSR leaves behind alot of excellent rape meal, a fine
feed for livestock, or again I suppose we could blend it with kibble for
vegetarians.

Now we could perhaps increase our arable area but there are problems here.
Much has been lost under urban sprawl, and even more has been damaged by
being used as flood overspill because of urban building on the flood plain.
So much of it is only fit for grazing because they daren't plough it.

Also in many areas they physically cannot plough the land because the soil
isn't suitable or there would be a danger of erosian because of the slopes.



So with limited arable area, increasing demand for biofuel, there is also
the fact that importing food is going to become more expensive.

A Green MEP Caroline Lucas produced a report for the European parliament
which looked at the effects of high oil prices and biofuel on food prices.

If you want to fetch half a kilo (basically a lb for the politically
unreconstructed) of baby carrots in from South Africa, at the lowest
aviation fuel price for the last couple of years, the fuel cost on those
carrots was 9.1pence. At the peak cost fuel hit a couple of months ago the
fuel cost on the same carrots was 22.5p per pound. If Aviation fuel doubles
in price, then it is going to cost 38.2p per pound to fly the carrots into
this country.




All these interesting imported protein sources beloved of many vegetarians
are going to become awfully expensive



So it is about time people woke up to the changing world and decided what
they are going to do about it.

The Brazilians are under no obligation to reduce their standard of living
for the privilege of selling us food. What have you got to sell them in
exchange?



Jim Webster

Hey pearl
now you can help subsidise all these nice South Americans you were so
worried about
Now you can revel in the fact that Argentinian soya has gone up and this
money will go to help the poor.

Isn't it nice to know you have such moral suppliers, so reliable and so keen
to serve your interests

Jim Webster
http://www.abcmoney.co.uk/news/1120074898.htm

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AFX) - Argentina's government unveiled a plan
Thursday to fight inflation on basic consumer foods, saying it would
subsidize some supermarket goods with money raised by a higher export tax on
soybeans.

The move, in a South American farm country that is the world's top soy meal
exporter, triggered protests by farmers and grain exporters.


It was the latest step in inflation-fighting efforts by the government of
President Nestor Kirchner.

Inflation for all 2006 neared 10 percent and Kirchner, a left-leaning member
of the ruling Peronist party now facing an election year, has vowed to keep
prices in check for consumers still recovering from a deep 2001-2002
economic crisis.

Economy Minister Felisa Miceli said the government would raise the tax on
soybeans and soybean products from an existing 24 percent to 27.5 percent.

The added revenue, she said, would go toward subsidies for producers of key
basic foodstuffs.

She said the measure would raise an additional $100 million in the coming
year for the subsidy program for products ranging from wheat flour to dairy,
pork and poultry.

Argentines for 11 years until December 2001 had their peso currency pegged
by law at 1-to-1 with the dollar, but the crisis that year prompted a more
than 70 percent devaluation of the local money and many wages remain badly
eroded.

Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not
be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

"(o)(o)" wrote in message ...
Child abuse, animal abuse, adult abuse, environment abuse are usually
linked. I think it's possibly due to some form of inbreeding.

For a truly horrific report of animal abuse be sure to visit www.petakillsanimals.com

pearl wrote:

'In his 1583 text, Anatomy of Abuses, Stubbes wrote ...

Didn't realise Stubbsy was that old. :-)


--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

"Jim Webster" wrote in message
...

The Brazilians are under no obligation to reduce their standard of living
for the privilege of selling us food. What have you got to sell them in
exchange?



As I have said a long while back the fundemental activities of food
production, housing and defence have been underrewarded compared with the
general employment market.

The wages of plumbers, plasterers and brickies have risen over the last few
years, the army has a severe recruitment problem
and as you observe the foreighner is no longer a reliable supplier of cheap
food.

In any system the tendency is to move towards the average, we live
substantualy above the world average. The industrial revolution brought us
above the average, we are no longer a world industrial innovator.

Buy your HD 42 inch home cinema TV, sitting at home in the dark is all we
will be able to afford soon.