Tim Watts wrote:

You can still buy it as a compost accelerator.

Hmmm. I make my own compost accelerator, especially after a night out.

--
Rusty

Rusty Hinge
wibbled on Wednesday 07 April 2010 15:41

Tim Watts wrote:
Rusty Hinge
wibbled on Tuesday 06 April 2010 17:44

Tim Watts wrote:
I have a 6" stump left from a tree I just chopped down (threatening to
break the drain chamber in my garden that's all of a foot away from the
trunk).

No idea what the tree was, but I need to ensure its complete and
permanent demise.

Apart from the old drill-holes-in-stump and pour in diesel/old-sump-oil
trick (don't have any mouldy sump oil to hand anyway) what would be a
good product to use?
Sulphuric acid. (Battery acid.)


I've got 20% HCl - would that be any good?

Not as far as I know.

Sulphuric acid naturally absorbs any moisture it an find, and such that
it does, evaporates to some extent.

It also removes (chemically) the elements of water from many organic
substances, so hydrogen and oxygen are taken from the wood's cellulose
and dilute the acid. The cycle continues until all the acid is
neutralised by contact with bases and some mildly alkaline salts (in the
surrounsing soil and potassium carbonate amongst other salts in the wood.)

The wood is first rendered into a friable condition much like naturally
rotten wood, and if there's still enough acid left, the roots are
reduced mainly to carbon.

This does not happen with HCl.


Oh - so not so much that it is an acid, more that it rips the H2O out of
anything it touches - remember the chem lesson experiment with conc H2SO4 +
sugar?

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Rusty Hinge
wibbled on Wednesday 07 April 2010 15:46

Jeff Layman wrote:
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...


The first one. Either that or anything containing ammonium sulphamate
(not to be confused with ammonium sulphate!). Drill two or three
decent sized deep holes into the top of the stump, pour in crystals of
stump killer, cover with a tile or whatever to keep the rain out.

--

Chris

Gardening in West Cornwall overlooking the sea.
Mild, but very exposed to salt gales

E-mail: christopher[dot]hog[at]virgin[dot]net

Ammonium sulphamate was withdrawn from sale over 2 years ago and is not
approved for use in the EU.

Must get some and use it!

Applies for Nigel Farage Medal

http://www.stantonhope.com/Tools_26_...r_ 872kg_.asp

smaller quantities regularly on ebay (around 10 quid/kilo)
--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Martin Brown
wibbled on Tuesday 06 April 2010 20:07

Jeff Layman wrote:
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...


The first one. Either that or anything containing ammonium sulphamate
(not to be confused with ammonium sulphate!). Drill two or three
decent sized deep holes into the top of the stump, pour in crystals of
stump killer, cover with a tile or whatever to keep the rain out.

Ammonium sulphamate was withdrawn from sale over 2 years ago and is not
approved for use in the EU.

Do you have any idea why?

I checked an it is apparently due to the insane requirement that the
halfwitted Irish Rapporteur that insisted on additional gratuitous
animal testing on dogs. This is nothing to do with safety when used by
amateurs. It is entirely to do with insane EEC red tape on chemicals.

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=1997

Even the Henry Doublespeak organisation considers Ammonium Sulphamate as
a borderline acceptable weedkiller although not strictly Organic(TM).

This is an example of the H&SE at its dumbest. You can bet your bottom
dollar it is still widely available to amateurs elsewhere in Europe
despite a notional EU wide ban. Only the UK blindly enforces this junk.

Regards,
Martin Brown

You can still buy it as a compost accelerator.


But if you use the ammonium sulphamate from that pack as a stump killer, you
will be doing something illegal, as daft as it may sound. In fact, AFAIAA,
you are only allowed to use approved products for designated "pesticide"
uses. If you use anything else (eg coffee grounds to deal with slugs), then
you risk prosecution. It's a funny old world, innit?

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman wrote:
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Martin Brown
wibbled on Tuesday 06 April 2010 20:07

Jeff Layman wrote:
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...


The first one. Either that or anything containing ammonium sulphamate
(not to be confused with ammonium sulphate!). Drill two or three
decent sized deep holes into the top of the stump, pour in crystals of
stump killer, cover with a tile or whatever to keep the rain out.

Ammonium sulphamate was withdrawn from sale over 2 years ago and is not
approved for use in the EU.

Do you have any idea why?

I checked an it is apparently due to the insane requirement that the
halfwitted Irish Rapporteur that insisted on additional gratuitous
animal testing on dogs. This is nothing to do with safety when used by
amateurs. It is entirely to do with insane EEC red tape on chemicals.

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=1997

Even the Henry Doublespeak organisation considers Ammonium Sulphamate as
a borderline acceptable weedkiller although not strictly Organic(TM).

This is an example of the H&SE at its dumbest. You can bet your bottom
dollar it is still widely available to amateurs elsewhere in Europe
despite a notional EU wide ban. Only the UK blindly enforces this junk.

Regards,
Martin Brown

You can still buy it as a compost accelerator.

But if you use the ammonium sulphamate from that pack as a stump killer,
you will be doing something illegal, as daft as it may sound. In fact,
AFAIAA, you are only allowed to use approved products for designated
"pesticide" uses. If you use anything else (eg coffee grounds to deal
with slugs), then you risk prosecution. It's a funny old world, innit?

It would be unlicensed use. But they would have to catch you doing it.
Who knows you might decide to start a compost heap on the stump and then
change your mind. The rules on ammonium sulphamate are a complete joke
and someone deserves a good knee capping for this particular mess.

An effective and relatively benign weedkiller banned for amateur use in
the EEC because of red tape and unbridled bureaucratic stupidity.

A fitting punishment would be application of the unapproved product to
sensitive parts of the Irish Rapporteurs anatomy. It is an irritant.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Tim Watts wrote:

Oh - so not so much that it is an acid, more that it rips the H2O out of
anything it touches - remember the chem lesson experiment with conc H2SO4 +
sugar?

Ding!

Not one we did, but I'd expect it to reduce sugar (sucrose - C12H22O11)
to carbon.

C12H22O11 + H2SO4 - 12.C + H2SO4/11H2O

--
Rusty

Jeff Layman
wibbled on Wednesday 07 April 2010 17:21


But if you use the ammonium sulphamate from that pack as a stump killer,
you
will be doing something illegal, as daft as it may sound. In fact,
AFAIAA, you are only allowed to use approved products for designated
"pesticide"

Sod that, already ordered

uses. If you use anything else (eg coffee grounds to deal with slugs),
then
you risk prosecution.

What you have to realise is that there are now so many statues on the book
that criminalise perfectly innocuous activities that the only way to remain
sane is forget the law and use common sense - this has become and will
remain my approach to life in this country until such a time that sanity is
restored (if ever).

Do you feel happy that it is a non indictable criminal offence for you to
replace one of your windows or an external door without informing local
building control, to quote one example?

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Rusty Hinge
wibbled on Wednesday 07 April 2010 17:51

Tim Watts wrote:

Oh - so not so much that it is an acid, more that it rips the H2O out of
anything it touches - remember the chem lesson experiment with conc H2SO4
+ sugar?

Ding!

Not one we did, but I'd expect it to reduce sugar (sucrose - C12H22O11)
to carbon.

C12H22O11 + H2SO4 - 12.C + H2SO4/11H2O


That's it! Lots of steam and a pile of foamy graphite left which curously
extrudes from the glass beaker like an oversized indoor firework...

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Jeff Layman
wibbled on Wednesday 07 April 2010 17:21


But if you use the ammonium sulphamate from that pack as a stump killer,
you
will be doing something illegal, as daft as it may sound. In fact,
AFAIAA, you are only allowed to use approved products for designated
"pesticide"

Sod that, already ordered

uses. If you use anything else (eg coffee grounds to deal with slugs),
then
you risk prosecution.

What you have to realise is that there are now so many statues on the book
that criminalise perfectly innocuous activities that the only way to
remain
sane is forget the law and use common sense - this has become and will
remain my approach to life in this country until such a time that sanity
is
restored (if ever).

Trouble is they go for the easiest target to keep numbers up. How else do
you explain the recent prosecution of the pet shop owner for selling a
goldfish to a 14-year-old?

Do you feel happy that it is a non indictable criminal offence for you to
replace one of your windows or an external door without informing local
building control, to quote one example?

What else is there for Jobsworths to do?! This country has become a mass of
idiotic laws which were brought in (mainly) for "good" reason. As the
saying goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

--

Jeff

Jeff Layman
wibbled on Thursday 08 April 2010 10:36

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Jeff Layman
wibbled on Wednesday 07 April 2010 17:21


But if you use the ammonium sulphamate from that pack as a stump killer,
you
will be doing something illegal, as daft as it may sound. In fact,
AFAIAA, you are only allowed to use approved products for designated
"pesticide"

Sod that, already ordered

uses. If you use anything else (eg coffee grounds to deal with slugs),
then
you risk prosecution.

What you have to realise is that there are now so many statues on the
book that criminalise perfectly innocuous activities that the only way to
remain
sane is forget the law and use common sense - this has become and will
remain my approach to life in this country until such a time that sanity
is
restored (if ever).

Trouble is they go for the easiest target to keep numbers up.

They'll have to catch me, on private land (= warrant to gain access). Sure
I've expressed hypothetical intent here, but as yet no crime has been
committed...

I've already banned anyone from TV Licensing from coming on my land in
writing removing their implied right of access.

How else do
you explain the recent prosecution of the pet shop owner for selling a
goldfish to a 14-year-old?

Link? I haven't seen that.


Do you feel happy that it is a non indictable criminal offence for you to
replace one of your windows or an external door without informing local
building control, to quote one example?

What else is there for Jobsworths to do?! This country has become a mass
of
idiotic laws which were brought in (mainly) for "good" reason. As the
saying goes: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".


Which is why the sooner people start saying "enough" and stop acting like
brainless sheep, the better. We either need to get sensible, or become more
like Italians, ie have lots of crap but everyone to a man ignores it and has
a glass of wine in the sun instead

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Tim Watts wrote:
Jeff Layman
wibbled on Thursday 08 April 2010 10:36

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Jeff Layman
wibbled on Wednesday 07 April 2010 17:21


But if you use the ammonium sulphamate from that pack as a stump killer,
you
will be doing something illegal, as daft as it may sound. In fact,
AFAIAA, you are only allowed to use approved products for designated
"pesticide"
Sod that, already ordered

uses. If you use anything else (eg coffee grounds to deal with slugs),
then
you risk prosecution.
What you have to realise is that there are now so many statues on the
book that criminalise perfectly innocuous activities that the only way to
remain
sane is forget the law and use common sense - this has become and will
remain my approach to life in this country until such a time that sanity
is
restored (if ever).
Trouble is they go for the easiest target to keep numbers up.

They'll have to catch me, on private land (= warrant to gain access). Sure
I've expressed hypothetical intent here, but as yet no crime has been
committed...

I've already banned anyone from TV Licensing from coming on my land in
writing removing their implied right of access.

How else do
you explain the recent prosecution of the pet shop owner for selling a
goldfish to a 14-year-old?

Link? I haven't seen that.

Real enough although if you only read the Hate Mail or Sun biassed
accounts you will get the impression that is all they were had up for.

A more balanced view is on the local BBC site. I suspect the cockatiel
with the broken leg and eye infection and the gerbil dunked in coffee
had something to do with their decision to prosecute.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/8597762.stm

Even so it does seem a bit OTT to me.

Regards,
Martin Brown

Martin Brown
wibbled on Thursday 08 April 2010 12:41

Tim Watts wrote:
Jeff Layman
wibbled on Thursday 08 April 2010 10:36

How else do
you explain the recent prosecution of the pet shop owner for selling a
goldfish to a 14-year-old?

Link? I haven't seen that.

Real enough although if you only read the Hate Mail or Sun biassed
accounts you will get the impression that is all they were had up for.

A more balanced view is on the local BBC site. I suspect the cockatiel
with the broken leg and eye infection and the gerbil dunked in coffee
had something to do with their decision to prosecute.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/8597762.stm

Even so it does seem a bit OTT to me.

Yes it is, a fine would have been more in order. Taken in balance with feral
oiks roaming the streets in many towns, then it is definately picking on a
soft target...



--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

In message , Tim Watts
writes
Pretty much anyone has implied right of access to your property to conduct
their legal business, eg anyone wishing to post something through your
letterbox, milkman etc as well as certain bodies with additional statutory
rights such as the gas company in an emergency, Customs Officers under some
conditions, coppers with a warrant etc.
And very shortly council official to come and inspect your house as
part of the council tax revaluation which will go ahead if Labour is
returned to power next month.
--
hugh
"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, Or who said it, Even if
I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own
common sense." Buddha

In message , Rusty Hinge
writes
Martin Brown wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...


The first one. Either that or anything containing ammonium sulphamate
(not to be confused with ammonium sulphate!). Drill two or three
decent sized deep holes into the top of the stump, pour in crystals of
stump killer, cover with a tile or whatever to keep the rain out.

Ammonium sulphamate was withdrawn from sale over 2 years ago and is
not approved for use in the EU.
Do you have any idea why?
I checked an it is apparently due to the insane requirement that the
halfwitted Irish Rapporteur that insisted on additional gratuitous
animal testing on dogs. This is nothing to do with safety when used by
amateurs. It is entirely to do with insane EEC red tape on chemicals.
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/garden.asp?id=1997
Even the Henry Doublespeak organisation considers Ammonium
Sulphamate as a borderline acceptable weedkiller although not
strictly Organic(TM).
This is an example of the H&SE at its dumbest. You can bet your
bottom dollar it is still widely available to amateurs elsewhere in
Europe despite a notional EU wide ban. Only the UK blindly enforces
this junk.

Quite agree with those sentiments.

If you want a relatively harmles chemical banned for garden use, you
can usually get it from a chemical distributor, who won't ask you what
you want it for, unless it's something which you could blow-up
politicians with.

Mind you, you'd have to buy several years' supply...

Very shortly harmless food supplements will also be severely restricted.
This is at the behest of the big pharmas who want us to pop pills which
remove one symptom and replace it with another requiring more pills
rather than taking beneficial supplements and vitamins.
--
hugh
"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, Or who said it, Even if
I have said it, Unless it agrees with your own reason And your own
common sense." Buddha

hugh
wibbled on Thursday 08 April 2010 19:13

In message , Tim Watts
writes
Pretty much anyone has implied right of access to your property to conduct
their legal business, eg anyone wishing to post something through your
letterbox, milkman etc as well as certain bodies with additional statutory
rights such as the gas company in an emergency, Customs Officers under
some conditions, coppers with a warrant etc.
And very shortly council official to come and inspect your house as
part of the council tax revaluation which will go ahead if Labour is
returned to power next month.

Ah that old chestnut...

Well, they can try to get in my house...

Hopefully, there's not much danger of another Labour term - the general
hatred of Labour probably outweighs the lack of belief in the
alternatives... Personally we might be better off if they just scrap teh
general election and alternate one term of Labour with one term of the
Tories. They seem to do less damage in 5 years rather than 15.

While we're diverted to politics, I would strongly urge you all to go and
look at:

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/

You can see what your MPs voting record is, whether they can be arsed to
take part in debates or have the balls to vote as a rebel from time to time.
Not to mention how much of a thieving weasel they've been WRT expense
claims. Could provide material for embarrasing questions when the
campaigners turn up on yer doorstep...



--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.