The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states. This one
is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with black spot last
year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid Mary.

http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of creating
some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big problem with this
one is that it only has one, or if you're generous and squint your eyes a
bit, two canes coming out of the bud union (which also, as you can see, is
rather a long way above the ground for some reason). The rest is just a big
lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some more, I
believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon Brown of the rose
garden that is just clinging on until somebody does the kind thing and puts
it out of its misery? It produced one little red rose last year, which was
impressive considering all the leaves it lost (and it had not many to start
with) in my attempts to control the spread of the spot.


Ian

Sacha wrote:
And as a postscript, some roses get blackspot, some don't.

IME, all roses get blackspot, just some worse than others!
I've found that if you just pick the spotty leaves off as they appear, they
make it through.

I've got one dead rose in the garden. I'm hoping it's not the Blue Moon,
I'm quite fond of that.

Sacha wrote:
On 2010-04-28 23:29:09 +0100, "Ian B"
said:

The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states.
This one is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with
black spot last year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid
Mary. http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of
creating some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big
problem with this one is that it only has one, or if you're generous
and squint your eyes a bit, two canes coming out of the bud union
(which also, as you can see, is rather a long way above the ground
for some reason). The rest is just a big lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some
more, I believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon
Brown of the rose garden that is just clinging on until somebody
does the kind thing and puts it out of its misery? It produced one
little red rose last year, which was impressive considering all the
leaves it lost (and it had not many to start with) in my attempts to
control the spread of the spot. Ian

Up to you, really. You could try feeding it and giving it a chance.
But plants, like people, do have a certain life term. Your rose may
have reached it. Personally, I'd give it a good shot of some kind of
fertiliser and a last chance. It's not easy to tell from a photo but
that soil looks impoverished and roses are greedy feeders. You might
do better if you get some good, well rotted manure onto the ground,
too in the autumn. The soil looks compacted so fork it over lightly
to let a bit of air in but without loosening the rose's roots and get
some pelleted chicken manure and scatter it around according to the
instructions and given the current drought, water, water and water
again.
And as a postscript, some roses get blackspot, some don't.

Thanks. The soil has been sort of dug over a lot lately planting stuff and
so on, but it tends to pack down rather quickly. It does need improving.
I've got a box of chicken poo pellets so I'll try that; the roses have
already had a generous amount of Toprose but maybe that's not enough?

I'm wondering whether cutting those crusty woody old canes all the way back
to the union will do any good? Or not?


Ian

"Ian B" wrote in message
...
The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states. This one
is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with black spot last
year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid Mary.

http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of creating
some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big problem with this
one is that it only has one, or if you're generous and squint your eyes a
bit, two canes coming out of the bud union (which also, as you can see, is
rather a long way above the ground for some reason). The rest is just a
big lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some more, I
believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon Brown of the
rose garden that is just clinging on until somebody does the kind thing
and puts it out of its misery? It produced one little red rose last year,
which was impressive considering all the leaves it lost (and it had not
many to start with) in my attempts to control the spread of the spot.

It looks fine for this stage of your season. You've got new growth on it
and lots of buds which will come out progressivley. Give it some fish/sea
weed emulsion at the recommended rate every two weeks through the growing
season and give it an organic rose food at 6 week intervals through the
growing season and give it a mulch around the base, but not close up to the
stem.

"Ian B" wrote
The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states. This one
is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with black spot last
year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid Mary.

http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of creating
some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big problem with this
one is that it only has one, or if you're generous and squint your eyes a
bit, two canes coming out of the bud union (which also, as you can see, is
rather a long way above the ground for some reason). The rest is just a
big lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some more, I
believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon Brown of the
rose garden that is just clinging on until somebody does the kind thing
and puts it out of its misery? It produced one little red rose last year,
which was impressive considering all the leaves it lost (and it had not
many to start with) in my attempts to control the spread of the spot.

When my next door neighbour died I kept his old front garden tidy for his
sister and gave his old roses, that were more than half dead, a good dose of
feed, Growmore and Chicken manure pellets mainly. The difference was
amazing, they put on lots of new strong healthy growth and started to flower
beautifully.
The next year the new owners dug the lot up and concreted it all over! :-(

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...


"Ian B" wrote
The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states. This
one is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with black spot
last year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid Mary.

http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of creating
some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big problem with
this one is that it only has one, or if you're generous and squint your
eyes a bit, two canes coming out of the bud union (which also, as you can
see, is rather a long way above the ground for some reason). The rest is
just a big lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some more, I
believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon Brown of the
rose garden that is just clinging on until somebody does the kind thing
and puts it out of its misery? It produced one little red rose last year,
which was impressive considering all the leaves it lost (and it had not
many to start with) in my attempts to control the spread of the spot.

When my next door neighbour died I kept his old front garden tidy for his
sister and gave his old roses, that were more than half dead, a good dose
of feed, Growmore and Chicken manure pellets mainly. The difference was
amazing, they put on lots of new strong healthy growth and started to
flower beautifully.
The next year the new owners dug the lot up and concreted it all over!
:-(

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK



Bob are you suggesting that Gordon Brown should be fed Growmore and Chicken
Pellets, or ........... that he should be concreted over?

Mike

--

....................................
Today, is the tomorrow, you were worrying about, yesterday.
....................................

On 28/04/2010 23:29, Ian B wrote:
The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states. This one
is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with black spot last
year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid Mary.

http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of creating
some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big problem with this
one is that it only has one, or if you're generous and squint your eyes a
bit, two canes coming out of the bud union (which also, as you can see, is
rather a long way above the ground for some reason). The rest is just a big
lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some more, I
believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon Brown of the rose
garden that is just clinging on until somebody does the kind thing and puts
it out of its misery? It produced one little red rose last year, which was
impressive considering all the leaves it lost (and it had not many to start
with) in my attempts to control the spread of the spot.


Ian



I've seen much sicker roses go on to thrive! By all means cut out all
the dead basal wood; leaving it will never help the rose, and may be
detrimental. Lightly fork in some of your chicken poo fertiliser, then
give it a generous watering. Then mulch thickly around it, but not too
close to the stem as this can cause rotting. Having said that, you
could afford to build up the soil/mulch level until the bud union is
buried. The mulch will help keep the root area cool and moist. and
suppress weeds. More importantly, it will help prevent spores of the
black spot fungus re-infecting the plant. Since you have a serious
black spot problem in your garden, you should invest in a proprietory
rose fungus treatment.

If the rose doesn't produce buds by the beginning of June, give it a
high potash feed, such as a proprietory rose or tomato fertiliser. This
will help to ripen the wood and induce flowering.

It may be a red rose, but I wouldn't give it the Gordon Brown treatment
just yet!

--
Spider
from high ground in SE London
gardening on clay

Spider wrote:
On 28/04/2010 23:29, Ian B wrote:
The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states.
This one is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with
black spot last year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid
Mary. http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of
creating some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big
problem with this one is that it only has one, or if you're generous
and squint your eyes a bit, two canes coming out of the bud union
(which also, as you can see, is rather a long way above the ground
for some reason). The rest is just a big lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some
more, I believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon
Brown of the rose garden that is just clinging on until somebody
does the kind thing and puts it out of its misery? It produced one
little red rose last year, which was impressive considering all the
leaves it lost (and it had not many to start with) in my attempts to
control the spread of the spot. Ian



I've seen much sicker roses go on to thrive! By all means cut out all
the dead basal wood; leaving it will never help the rose, and may be
detrimental. Lightly fork in some of your chicken poo fertiliser,
then give it a generous watering. Then mulch thickly around it, but
not too close to the stem as this can cause rotting. Having said
that, you could afford to build up the soil/mulch level until the bud
union is buried. The mulch will help keep the root area cool and
moist. and suppress weeds. More importantly, it will help prevent
spores of the black spot fungus re-infecting the plant. Since you
have a serious black spot problem in your garden, you should invest
in a proprietory rose fungus treatment.

If the rose doesn't produce buds by the beginning of June, give it a
high potash feed, such as a proprietory rose or tomato fertiliser. This
will help to ripen the wood and induce flowering.

It may be a red rose, but I wouldn't give it the Gordon Brown
treatment just yet!

Following the various excellent advice, I've sprinkled the ground with
chicken poo and forked, well hoed in fact, round all the bushes including
Gordon to break up the ground. It's also raining nicely today so that's
helpful too. I haven't got any mulch but I'll look into that, although the
web's explanation of what mulch is seems astonishingly vague. I've got
shedloads of leaves from the massive lime trees overhead, well piles of them
anyway. Would they do? My neighbour Ron insists that all the lime leaves
ruin his soil, but he's very old and getting a bit vague and thinks Mr
Attlee is the Prime Minister.

I'll also look at getting some fungicide. One of the other bushes which had
been a bit similar last year but has been doing better this year has some
strangely wilting leaves in a couple of places which is worrying me a bit.
I'm hoping it's a delayed reaction from last week when I mistook one of its
lateral roots for nettle roots while I was landscaping (that is, moving the
slabs around a bit) and had hauled about five foot out of the ground before
I realised where it was pointing to. It had a lot of black spot too last
year so I was pleased it was coming out all over this year after the harsh
pruning.

Anyway, they've all got lots of chicken poo, and now I'm just looking
forward to the henhouse stench dissipating a bit.

Thanks all!

Ian

Janet Baraclough wrote:
And as a postscript, some roses get blackspot, some don't.
IME, all roses get blackspot, just some worse than others!
Some are very resistant to it. I've never known rugosa roses get
blackspot.

Ah, I don't really count those as roses, they're more kind of hedges with
rose flowers in them. :-}
(In the same way that I count fuschias that are big and bushy and hedgelike
as totally different plants to the delicate little pot-raised standards or
tumblers that won't last a winter ...!)

"Ian B" wrote in message
...
The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states. This one
is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with black spot last
year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid Mary.

http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of creating
some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big problem with this
one is that it only has one, or if you're generous and squint your eyes a
bit, two canes coming out of the bud union (which also, as you can see, is
rather a long way above the ground for some reason). The rest is just a
big lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some more, I
believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon Brown of the
rose garden that is just clinging on until somebody does the kind thing
and puts it out of its misery? It produced one little red rose last year,
which was impressive considering all the leaves it lost (and it had not
many to start with) in my attempts to control the spread of the spot.




Did you ever consider taking care of your rose bushes before now? Like
treat them for disease or feed them?
Apparently not.

Christina Websell wrote:
"Ian B" wrote in message
...
The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states.
This one is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with
black spot last year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid
Mary. http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of
creating some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big
problem with this one is that it only has one, or if you're generous
and squint your eyes a bit, two canes coming out of the bud union
(which also, as you can see, is rather a long way above the ground
for some reason). The rest is just a big lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some
more, I believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon
Brown of the rose garden that is just clinging on until somebody
does the kind thing and puts it out of its misery? It produced one
little red rose last year, which was impressive considering all the
leaves it lost (and it had not many to start with) in my attempts to
control the spread of the spot.


Did you ever consider taking care of your rose bushes before now? Like
treat them for disease or feed them?
Apparently not.

Yes I did feed them last year, but I inherited them much in this state from
the previous occupant who was an elderly man who hadn't been able to tend
the garden properly, so last year I was not focussing on it myself, just
trying to keep it ticking over with weeding and stuff. The roses were fed
(Toprose) and watered and I tried to contend with the black spot but not
very well and now I'm trying to learn how to do a proper job with it all,
since I've never had a garden of my own before and it's a rather steep
learning curve isn't it?

I appreciate that I look like an idiot, largely because I am one, but I'm
doing my best.


Ian

On 29/04/2010 20:15, Ian B wrote:
Spider wrote:
On 28/04/2010 23:29, Ian B wrote:
The garden has half a dozen rose bushes in it, in various states.
This one is about the saddest looking. It had severe problems with
black spot last year, such that I now informally know it as Typhoid
Mary. http://img594.imageshack.us/i/iansrose.jpg/

So this year I read up about pruning for about thirty seconds on the
internet, then hacked savagely at all the bushes in the hope of
creating some improvement. They're all sprooting now, but the big
problem with this one is that it only has one, or if you're generous
and squint your eyes a bit, two canes coming out of the bud union
(which also, as you can see, is rather a long way above the ground
for some reason). The rest is just a big lump of gnarly old bark.

Is there anything I can do to improve its prospects and get some
more, I believe they're called "basal breaks", or is it the Gordon
Brown of the rose garden that is just clinging on until somebody
does the kind thing and puts it out of its misery? It produced one
little red rose last year, which was impressive considering all the
leaves it lost (and it had not many to start with) in my attempts to
control the spread of the spot. Ian



I've seen much sicker roses go on to thrive! By all means cut out all
the dead basal wood; leaving it will never help the rose, and may be
detrimental. Lightly fork in some of your chicken poo fertiliser,
then give it a generous watering. Then mulch thickly around it, but
not too close to the stem as this can cause rotting. Having said
that, you could afford to build up the soil/mulch level until the bud
union is buried. The mulch will help keep the root area cool and
moist. and suppress weeds. More importantly, it will help prevent
spores of the black spot fungus re-infecting the plant. Since you
have a serious black spot problem in your garden, you should invest
in a proprietory rose fungus treatment.

If the rose doesn't produce buds by the beginning of June, give it a
high potash feed, such as a proprietory rose or tomato fertiliser. This
will help to ripen the wood and induce flowering.

It may be a red rose, but I wouldn't give it the Gordon Brown
treatment just yet!

Following the various excellent advice, I've sprinkled the ground with
chicken poo and forked, well hoed in fact, round all the bushes including
Gordon to break up the ground. It's also raining nicely today so that's
helpful too. I haven't got any mulch but I'll look into that, although the
web's explanation of what mulch is seems astonishingly vague. I've got
shedloads of leaves from the massive lime trees overhead, well piles of them
anyway. Would they do? My neighbour Ron insists that all the lime leaves
ruin his soil, but he's very old and getting a bit vague and thinks Mr
Attlee is the Prime Minister.


Sorry, I was a bit vague about that. As you've discovered, a mulch can
be many things but, in a rose border, it can be as simple as
soil-improving compost (your own from a compost heap, or bought) or a
bark chip mulch. Because you need to bury that bud union, I suggest you
get a good tree & shrub compost to build up the soil level, then more of
the same or a bark chip mulch spread a little wider to ensure weed
suppression and a cool root run.


I'll also look at getting some fungicide. One of the other bushes which had
been a bit similar last year but has been doing better this year has some
strangely wilting leaves in a couple of places which is worrying me a bit.
I'm hoping it's a delayed reaction from last week when I mistook one of its
lateral roots for nettle roots while I was landscaping (that is, moving the
slabs around a bit) and had hauled about five foot out of the ground before
I realised where it was pointing to. *

*Make sure you bury this root as deeply as reasonable, water it well and
mulch. It should pick up.

It had a lot of black spot too last
year so I was pleased it was coming out all over this year after the harsh
pruning.

Anyway, they've all got lots of chicken poo, and now I'm just looking
forward to the henhouse stench dissipating a bit.

Thanks all!

Ian


Good luck to you and Gordon (the rose, that is .. well, hardly the PM!!)

--
Spider
from high ground in SE London
gardening on clay

"Ian B" wrote

since I've never had a garden of my own before and it's a rather steep
learning curve isn't it?

I appreciate that I look like an idiot, largely because I am one, but I'm
doing my best.

We all had to learn, some of us were fortunate to learn from good old
gardeners when we were children. Coming to it later in life without a mentor
is difficult but that is where we can help. Keep the questions coming, it
helps us to rethink why/how we do things.
I might add, one never ever finishes learning about gardening and plants.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
W.of London. UK

Sacha wrote:
On 2010-04-30 22:19:57 +0100, "Ian B"
said:

Christina Websell wrote:
snip


Did you ever consider taking care of your rose bushes before now?
Like treat them for disease or feed them?
Apparently not.

Yes I did feed them last year, but I inherited them much in this
state from the previous occupant who was an elderly man who hadn't
been able to tend the garden properly, so last year I was not
focussing on it myself, just trying to keep it ticking over with
weeding and stuff. The roses were fed (Toprose) and watered and I
tried to contend with the black spot but not very well and now I'm
trying to learn how to do a proper job with it all, since I've never
had a garden of my own before and it's a rather steep learning curve
isn't it? I appreciate that I look like an idiot, largely because I am
one,
but I'm doing my best.


Ian

You do NOT look like an idiot at all. You look like someone trying to
learn about his garden and gardening. Everyone starts from a position
of ignorance, whenever they start.

Thanks, you're very kind


Ian

Bob Hobden wrote:
"Ian B" wrote

since I've never had a garden of my own before and it's a rather
steep learning curve isn't it?

I appreciate that I look like an idiot, largely because I am one,
but I'm doing my best.

We all had to learn, some of us were fortunate to learn from good old
gardeners when we were children. Coming to it later in life without a
mentor is difficult but that is where we can help. Keep the questions
coming, it helps us to rethink why/how we do things.
I might add, one never ever finishes learning about gardening and
plants.

Thanks. I helped my dad a bit when I was a kid, but can't really remember
much. And I had a garden when I was with a (now ex) girlfriend for a year,
but it was basically her thing and I just dug things when she told me to dig
them, and mowed the lawn, kind of thing. To be honest I've always found the
degree of knowledge required rather intimidating, but it's also quite
exciting having so much to learn about a subject. I think I'd get a great
deal of satisfaction out of getting these poorly roses to bloom well, if
that's possible.

Strange thing is, or maybe not, there's one (I don't have a photo) that is
far "stronger" than the others and already a mass of new growth. I have no
idea why; maybe just a different variety, or maybe it was newer, or
something. But it's the one I posted the photo of that really appears to be
struggling.


Ian