On 24/01/13 11:45, Peter Clinch wrote:
On 24/01/2013 14:09, YTC#1 wrote:
Wear Altbergs.

Who of course have access to Magic Leather which never suffers the same
problems with waterproofing as the merely high quality leathers all
other manufacturers are stuck with using...

Personally I wear Yeti gaiters, and that works very well for keeping my
feet dry in leather boots. They're not cheap but as well as keeping
your feet dry they also preserve the boot's upper from a lot of the
horrors that walking through acid bogwater all day tend to visit upon
them. Fairly mad for DIY, gardening or m/cycling though, and if I
really wanted dry feet for those I'd wear wellies. Quite often for
walking too...


Nope, Altbergs are great for motorcycling, in all weathers.

And I hike in them as well. (As there is no room to carry hiking boots
when on a DTW trip).

But its a religious thing.

On Tue, 22 Jan 2013 22:28:39 +0000, Rick Hughes
wrote:

worth reading this thread, by Nick Brown the guy who formulated Nikwax
... importantly he advise new product will out perform Liquid Nikwax ...
which would make it very good indeed.


http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/forum/g...ars/27412.html

Might give the new stuff a try - the old stuff was fine for me.
Even if Nick Brown comes across as a bit of an arse, the product is
good.
http://www.outdoorsmagic.com/members...3/chat/page/1/

In article ,
Thomas Prufer wrote:

Also, rubbing causes transient overpressure
which can cause 'breakthrough' - and, once that has happened and
both sides of the pores are wet, the surface tension effect is
(mostly) lost.

I had, somewhere, the catalog of an outdoor supplier. They said that for tent
floors, such-and-such head (10 meters? 20? I forget, but it was it was a lot
more than I would have expected) was a reasonable lower limit to keep the floor
dry-ish in rain.

Moving around on the tent floor would "work" the water through; dirt from below
would make it worse. This agrees with the above... (They also said to put a
cheap tarp or plastic sheet under it to help keep away water, dirt, and holes.)

Yes. That's the phenomenon. While I have never had much water work
through reasonable groundsheets, I have found that some gets through
when they are on standing water.

My suspicion is that the conditions under which the head of pressure
are measured are a long way removed from those that appertain in real
life. But I have never seen a precise description of the former, nor
even a scientific one of why 'work through' occurs - my assertion of
transient overpressure is my understanding of the phenomenon.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

YTC#1 wrote:

On 24/01/13 11:45, Peter Clinch wrote:
On 24/01/2013 14:09, YTC#1 wrote:
Wear Altbergs.

Who of course have access to Magic Leather which never suffers the same
problems with waterproofing as the merely high quality leathers all
other manufacturers are stuck with using...

Personally I wear Yeti gaiters, and that works very well for keeping my
feet dry in leather boots. They're not cheap but as well as keeping
your feet dry they also preserve the boot's upper from a lot of the
horrors that walking through acid bogwater all day tend to visit upon
them. Fairly mad for DIY, gardening or m/cycling though, and if I
really wanted dry feet for those I'd wear wellies. Quite often for
walking too...


Nope, Altbergs are great for motorcycling, in all weathers.

And I hike in them as well. (As there is no room to carry hiking boots
when on a DTW trip).

But its a religious thing.

If the makers of Altberg boots wanted to sell more they A) improve their
customer service and B) improve the boots.

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:15:25 +0000 (GMT), wrote:

My suspicion is that the conditions under which the head of pressure
are measured are a long way removed from those that appertain in real
life. But I have never seen a precise description of the former, nor
even a scientific one of why 'work through' occurs - my assertion of
transient overpressure is my understanding of the phenomenon.

Compare to the waterproofness of watches, perhaps: a watch rated as withstanding
a head of 50 meters of water is noted a "being suitable for taking a shower",
100m as "you can swim with it" (in the German Wikipedia, the English one is
little less conservative).



Thomas Prufer

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:26:58 +0100, Thomas Prufer wrote:

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 16:15:25 +0000 (GMT), wrote:

My suspicion is that the conditions under which the head of pressure
are measured are a long way removed from those that appertain in real
life. But I have never seen a precise description of the former, nor
even a scientific one of why 'work through' occurs - my assertion of
transient overpressure is my understanding of the phenomenon.

Compare to the waterproofness of watches, perhaps: a watch rated as withstanding
a head of 50 meters of water is noted a "being suitable for taking a shower",
100m as "you can swim with it" (in the German Wikipedia, the English one is
little less conservative).

Thomas Prufer

Yes, a watch that is rated at 50m but shouldn't be used in a swimming pool
suggests possibly true but unrealistic claims - rather like a step ladder
that's rated for a static load (might explain why some of my jobs take so
long). then there's the 2kg tent that needs at least 1kg of additional
groundsheet and extra bracing in a gale. My old Vango Mkii featherweight
(plus ridgepole) withstood a gale at the top of Glencoe that flattened frame
tents, just with the standard pegs stuck in a gravel(ly) car park.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

In article ,
PeterC wrote:

My suspicion is that the conditions under which the head of pressure
are measured are a long way removed from those that appertain in real
life. But I have never seen a precise description of the former, nor
even a scientific one of why 'work through' occurs - my assertion of
transient overpressure is my understanding of the phenomenon.

Compare to the waterproofness of watches, perhaps: a watch rated as withstanding
a head of 50 meters of water is noted a "being suitable for taking a shower",
100m as "you can swim with it" (in the German Wikipedia, the English one is
little less conservative).

Yes, a watch that is rated at 50m but shouldn't be used in a swimming pool
suggests possibly true but unrealistic claims - rather like a step ladder
that's rated for a static load (might explain why some of my jobs take so
long). then there's the 2kg tent that needs at least 1kg of additional
groundsheet and extra bracing in a gale. My old Vango Mkii featherweight
(plus ridgepole) withstood a gale at the top of Glencoe that flattened frame
tents, just with the standard pegs stuck in a gravel(ly) car park.

Perhaps we should have a walker's form:

50m - suitable for taking hillwalking, if worn under a jacket

100m - suitable for orienteering, except in the Highlands


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:17:58 -0000, "Bill Grey"
wrote:

You seem determined to play down my experience with my Gortex boots/trail
shoes, you comment of "mild use" is quite patronising seeing as you don't
really know the conditions in which they were used.

Hard all-weather buggers in the uni strolling club, you know.

On 24/01/2013 14:45, Peter Clinch wrote:
On 24/01/2013 14:09, YTC#1 wrote:
Wear Altbergs.

Who of course have access to Magic Leather which never suffers the same
problems with waterproofing as the merely high quality leathers all
other manufacturers are stuck with using...

Personally I wear Yeti gaiters, and that works very well for keeping my
feet dry in leather boots. They're not cheap but as well as keeping
your feet dry they also preserve the boot's upper from a lot of the
horrors that walking through acid bogwater all day tend to visit upon
them. Fairly mad for DIY, gardening or m/cycling though, and if I
really wanted dry feet for those I'd wear wellies. Quite often for
walking too...

Pete.


Yeti's will also stop your toes falling off at -20 when you wear them
over your Altbergs.
When you're riding your bike without the luxury of heated clothing.
For a fortnight.
--
Mark Roberts

On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:40:59 +0000 (GMT), wrote:

In article ,
PeterC wrote:

My suspicion is that the conditions under which the head of pressure
are measured are a long way removed from those that appertain in real
life. But I have never seen a precise description of the former, nor
even a scientific one of why 'work through' occurs - my assertion of
transient overpressure is my understanding of the phenomenon.

Compare to the waterproofness of watches, perhaps: a watch rated as withstanding
a head of 50 meters of water is noted a "being suitable for taking a shower",
100m as "you can swim with it" (in the German Wikipedia, the English one is
little less conservative).

Yes, a watch that is rated at 50m but shouldn't be used in a swimming pool
suggests possibly true but unrealistic claims - rather like a step ladder
that's rated for a static load (might explain why some of my jobs take so
long). then there's the 2kg tent that needs at least 1kg of additional
groundsheet and extra bracing in a gale. My old Vango Mkii featherweight
(plus ridgepole) withstood a gale at the top of Glencoe that flattened frame
tents, just with the standard pegs stuck in a gravel(ly) car park.

Perhaps we should have a walker's form:

50m - suitable for taking hillwalking, if worn under a jacket

100m - suitable for orienteering, except in the Highlands

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The latter can exceed the 100m limit.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 24/01/2013 19:40, wrote:

100m - suitable for orienteering, except in the Highlands

Huh? Typical orienteering gear is lightweight polyester/nylon trousers
and top, and lightweight shoes many of which now have open mesh panels.
(See http://www.ultrasport.co.uk/index.ph...ex&cPath=50_52
for some examples).

None of which are remotely waterproof.


--
Reentrant (35+ years an orienteer and code debugger - hence my sig)

In article ,
Reentrant wrote:
On 24/01/2013 19:40, wrote:

100m - suitable for orienteering, except in the Highlands

Huh? Typical orienteering gear is lightweight polyester/nylon trousers
and top, and lightweight shoes many of which now have open mesh panels.
(See http://www.ultrasport.co.uk/index.ph...ex&cPath=50_52
for some examples).

None of which are remotely waterproof.

Precisely. The 100m is is supposed waterproofness of watches!
Someone commented that it isn't enough, which I can believe, but
I wouldn't bet on a showerproof 50m watch surviving more than
one wet orienteering session!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 25/01/2013 10:12, wrote:
In article ,
Reentrant wrote:
On 24/01/2013 19:40, wrote:

100m - suitable for orienteering, except in the Highlands

Huh? Typical orienteering gear is lightweight polyester/nylon trousers
and top, and lightweight shoes many of which now have open mesh panels.
(See http://www.ultrasport.co.uk/index.ph...ex&cPath=50_52
for some examples).

None of which are remotely waterproof.

Precisely. The 100m is is supposed waterproofness of watches!
Someone commented that it isn't enough, which I can believe, but
I wouldn't bet on a showerproof 50m watch surviving more than
one wet orienteering session!

I use a "50m water resistant" watch. It seems to do pretty well upside
down in the sea when surfing kayaks and given it can do that it's not
surprising it survives wetter Os too.

Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me at all if all "50m water
resistant" watches were /not/ created anything like equal. Mine's a
Casio (as was its predecessor, which also did genuinely underwater fine,
but I managed to bugger it up somehow trying to change the battery).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In message , writes
In article ,
Reentrant wrote:
On 24/01/2013 19:40, wrote:

100m - suitable for orienteering, except in the Highlands

Huh? Typical orienteering gear is lightweight polyester/nylon trousers
and top, and lightweight shoes many of which now have open mesh panels.
(See http://www.ultrasport.co.uk/index.ph...ex&cPath=50_52
for some examples).

None of which are remotely waterproof.

Precisely. The 100m is is supposed waterproofness of watches!
Someone commented that it isn't enough, which I can believe, but
I wouldn't bet on a showerproof 50m watch surviving more than
one wet orienteering session!

I suppose you need to consider the effect of thermal variation on the
watch internal air pressure adding or subtracting to the depth effect.

--
Tim Lamb

In article ,
Peter Clinch wrote:

I use a "50m water resistant" watch. It seems to do pretty well upside
down in the sea when surfing kayaks and given it can do that it's not
surprising it survives wetter Os too.

Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me at all if all "50m water
resistant" watches were /not/ created anything like equal. Mine's a
Casio (as was its predecessor, which also did genuinely underwater fine,
but I managed to bugger it up somehow trying to change the battery).

Right. I had one "50m" watch that I dipped 2" into a bath for under
a second, and dried it immediately. 3 days later, it stopped.

I regard the standard 50m/100m markings as so much marketing bullshit,
and doubt that the watches are even tested - even if they are, it
isn't rare for devices to work when straight out of the factory but
not after any real use, let alone after having the battery changed.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.