On 20/06/2014 12:56, sacha wrote:
On 2014-06-20 10:01:57 +0000, Martin said:

I assume that Food Standards Agency inspectors regularly check that
your kitchen
is clean. Regulations like the ones governing eggs are an attempt to
ensure that
the food is too

They run a check every year and can make spot-checks 20 times a year if
they want to. You never know when they're coming, nor should you. They
are, of course, interested in cleanliness and hygiene of the
establishment. But one inspector who came about 4 years ago was
completely unaware that he hadn't seen the largest area in which the
public sit! It was only when I offered him cake to go with his coffee
while he wrote his report, that he said "oh I didn't realise this room
was here". He was sitting right beside the entrance! But the chief
interest is indeed in food hygiene practice, fridge temps etc. I
understand entirely the reasons for the regs re eggs but to be able to
sell them on the Tea Room counter but not use them in the Tea Room
kitchen is simply silly! However, it's just not worth flouting the
rules because if one does and is found out, it would probably mean
instant closure. As it is, we keep our local milkman happy by buying
vast quantities of milk and dozens of trays of free range eggs from him
all season! ;-)

I assume that there is some regulation that prevents you selling your
eggs to the milkman and then buying them back from him.

On 20/06/2014 14:15, Andrew May wrote:
On 20/06/2014 12:56, sacha wrote:
On 2014-06-20 10:01:57 +0000, Martin said:

I assume that Food Standards Agency inspectors regularly check that
your kitchen
is clean. Regulations like the ones governing eggs are an attempt to
ensure that
the food is too

They run a check every year and can make spot-checks 20 times a year if
they want to. You never know when they're coming, nor should you. They
are, of course, interested in cleanliness and hygiene of the
establishment. But one inspector who came about 4 years ago was
completely unaware that he hadn't seen the largest area in which the
public sit! It was only when I offered him cake to go with his coffee
while he wrote his report, that he said "oh I didn't realise this room
was here". He was sitting right beside the entrance! But the chief
interest is indeed in food hygiene practice, fridge temps etc. I
understand entirely the reasons for the regs re eggs but to be able to
sell them on the Tea Room counter but not use them in the Tea Room
kitchen is simply silly! However, it's just not worth flouting the
rules because if one does and is found out, it would probably mean
instant closure. As it is, we keep our local milkman happy by buying
vast quantities of milk and dozens of trays of free range eggs from him
all season! ;-)

I assume that there is some regulation that prevents you selling your
eggs to the milkman and then buying them back from him.

See https://www.gov.uk/eggs-trade-regulations

On 2014-06-20 13:15:06 +0000, Andrew May said:

On 20/06/2014 12:56, sacha wrote:
On 2014-06-20 10:01:57 +0000, Martin said:

I assume that Food Standards Agency inspectors regularly check that
your kitchen
is clean. Regulations like the ones governing eggs are an attempt to
ensure that
the food is too

They run a check every year and can make spot-checks 20 times a year if
they want to. You never know when they're coming, nor should you. They
are, of course, interested in cleanliness and hygiene of the
establishment. But one inspector who came about 4 years ago was
completely unaware that he hadn't seen the largest area in which the
public sit! It was only when I offered him cake to go with his coffee
while he wrote his report, that he said "oh I didn't realise this room
was here". He was sitting right beside the entrance! But the chief
interest is indeed in food hygiene practice, fridge temps etc. I
understand entirely the reasons for the regs re eggs but to be able to
sell them on the Tea Room counter but not use them in the Tea Room
kitchen is simply silly! However, it's just not worth flouting the
rules because if one does and is found out, it would probably mean
instant closure. As it is, we keep our local milkman happy by buying
vast quantities of milk and dozens of trays of free range eggs from him
all season! ;-)

I assume that there is some regulation that prevents you selling your
eggs to the milkman and then buying them back from him.

Same reason as having to mark them ungraded. The flocks have to be
inspected and passed. We just kept 12 hens, mainly for our grand
daughter's 'amusement'. We no longer have any.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

"Martin" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 12:56:52 +0100, sacha wrote:

On 2014-06-20 10:01:57 +0000, Martin said:

On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 10:02:47 +0100, Sacha
wrote:

On 2014-06-20 08:09:28 +0000, Martin said:

On Thu, 19 Jun 2014 20:38:56 +0100, sacha wrote:

On 2014-06-19 18:43:26 +0000, stuart noble said:

On 19/06/2014 15:07, Sacha wrote:
On 2014-06-18 16:47:57 +0000, stuart noble said:

On 18/06/2014 14:54, Martin wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:57:03 +0100, Saxman
wrote:

On 17/06/2014 21:19, David Hill wrote:
At Aldi this afternoon they had Veg plants, tomato, peppers,
chillies,
aubergines and I think cucumber plants in 9 inch pots at just
£2.99
and very good plants


Their hanging baskets are very cheap.

One of the reasons that British growers struggle to make a living.


I thought the Dutch were the main reason for that?

And those hanging baskets look cheap, imo. There's a paucity of
plants
in a green plastic bowl which the plants rarely fill or cover.

'One' of the reasons. Tesco sells plants, B&Q sells plants - many
others
sell plants, sometimes badly looked after and of the bog standard
type
but they're cheap, so... As one small nursery owner said to us "I
don't
sell bread or paint so why are they allowed to sell plants?" I'm
glad
to see there's a strong movement for supporting British cut flower
growers as opposed to buying foreign imports automatically. I hope
more
gardeners support small nurseries because if they don't, an awful
lot of
plants will be lost to the 'every day' gardener of the future.

I suppose the answer to that is nobody is stopping the nursery owner
selling bread or paint, or used cars for that matter. Sad state of
affairs I know but they call it the free market

Actually, we couldn't sell bread because there would be a million
hygiene rules attached; we couldn't sell paint because it's highly
inflammable etc. and as to used cars, 'change of use' probably
wouldn't
allow it. We're only allowed a Tea Room because it's an adjunct to
the
Nursery and "operates only when the Nursery is open". For example,
when we kept hens, I asked if we could use the eggs in the Tea Room.
No. We couldn't. But people who have their own hens can feed the eggs
to you at their B&B breakfasts

Are you sure that they can do it legally?
https://www.gov.uk/eggs-trade-regulations

I did ask the NFU at our local office and the girl there checked for
me. It's something to do with it being their own home, whereas we're
considered a 'catering establishment'. It's a minute change but an
important one.

It doesn't say anything like that in the regulations.
The regulations are ineffective any way as salmonella still exists in
mass
produced eggs. There was a report saying so published recently.

As far as I can see B&Bs should be treated the same way as your tea room.

I'm waiting for Janet's interpretation.


but we can't give you a poached egg on
toast, or use them in cake making. However, we could sell them marked
as 'ungraded'! If anyone can make sense of the thinking behind all
that and tell me this country encourages small businesses......they
should be running the country with a large pair of scissors for all
the
red tape.

The legislation was an attempt to control salmonella. There are
exceptions for
very small businesses.

It's still a ridiculous way to do it, imo. Either way we could be
passing salmonella around, had that been an issue with our hens.
Whether we give it to people in cakes or sell it to them in boxes seems
immaterial

I assume that Food Standards Agency inspectors regularly check that
your kitchen
is clean. Regulations like the ones governing eggs are an attempt to
ensure that
the food is too

They run a check every year and can make spot-checks 20 times a year if
they want to. You never know when they're coming, nor should you. They
are, of course, interested in cleanliness and hygiene of the
establishment. But one inspector who came about 4 years ago was
completely unaware that he hadn't seen the largest area in which the
public sit! It was only when I offered him cake to go with his coffee
while he wrote his report, that he said "oh I didn't realise this room
was here". He was sitting right beside the entrance! But the chief
interest is indeed in food hygiene practice, fridge temps etc. I
understand entirely the reasons for the regs re eggs but to be able to
sell them on the Tea Room counter but not use them in the Tea Room
kitchen is simply silly! However, it's just not worth flouting the
rules because if one does and is found out, it would probably mean
instant closure. As it is, we keep our local milkman happy by buying
vast quantities of milk and dozens of trays of free range eggs from him
all season! ;-)

From local York and Hull newspaper reports, they seem to be more interested
in
paper work than anything else. Incomplete paper work score 0/5 and gets
reported
to/in the local press, even though the owner has found the missing document
by
the next day.
--

Martin in Zuid Holland

www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_IUPInEuc
================================================== ===

..
Try preparing food for Royalty!!

From sheer neglect and near demolition to recognition by Royalty in 4 years.

http://www.myalbum.co.uk/Album=AJVI337T

From 'nothing' to 'quite something', (which others throughout the country
seek advice) in 4 years

http://www.myalbum.co.uk/Album=QVGRAPUB

Take note of "Green Room Kitchen" and 'Green Room'. Made from 'nothing'.

(Thought I would add something to the thread and see if we can get it in the
Guinness Book of Records as the longest 'non pruned' thread)

Mike

..................................................

On Thu, 19 Jun 2014 15:07:05 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2014-06-18 16:47:57 +0000, stuart noble said:

On 18/06/2014 14:54, Martin wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:57:03 +0100, Saxman
wrote:

On 17/06/2014 21:19, David Hill wrote:
At Aldi this afternoon they had Veg plants, tomato, peppers, chillies,
aubergines and I think cucumber plants in 9 inch pots at just £2.99
and very good plants


Their hanging baskets are very cheap.

One of the reasons that British growers struggle to make a living.


I thought the Dutch were the main reason for that?

And those hanging baskets look cheap, imo. There's a paucity of plants
in a green plastic bowl which the plants rarely fill or cover.

'One' of the reasons. Tesco sells plants, B&Q sells plants - many
others sell plants, sometimes badly looked after and of the bog
standard type but they're cheap, so... As one small nursery owner
said to us "I don't sell bread or paint so why are they allowed to sell
plants?"

How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or paint of they
wanted to?

On 2014-06-20 16:08:50 +0000, Martin said:

On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 12:56:52 +0100, sacha wrote:

snip
I assume that Food Standards Agency inspectors regularly check that
your kitchen
is clean. Regulations like the ones governing eggs are an attempt to
ensure that
the food is too

They run a check every year and can make spot-checks 20 times a year if
they want to. You never know when they're coming, nor should you. They
are, of course, interested in cleanliness and hygiene of the
establishment. But one inspector who came about 4 years ago was
completely unaware that he hadn't seen the largest area in which the
public sit! It was only when I offered him cake to go with his coffee
while he wrote his report, that he said "oh I didn't realise this room
was here". He was sitting right beside the entrance! But the chief
interest is indeed in food hygiene practice, fridge temps etc. I
understand entirely the reasons for the regs re eggs but to be able to
sell them on the Tea Room counter but not use them in the Tea Room
kitchen is simply silly! However, it's just not worth flouting the
rules because if one does and is found out, it would probably mean
instant closure. As it is, we keep our local milkman happy by buying
vast quantities of milk and dozens of trays of free range eggs from him
all season! ;-)

From local York and Hull newspaper reports, they seem to be more interested in
paper work than anything else. Incomplete paper work score 0/5 and gets
reported
to/in the local press, even though the owner has found the missing document by
the next day.

Interesting you say that because one inspector did fret about getting
his paperwork done and was here for two hours or more.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 20/06/2014 20:53, Judith in England wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2014 15:07:05 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2014-06-18 16:47:57 +0000, stuart noble said:

On 18/06/2014 14:54, Martin wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:57:03 +0100, Saxman
wrote:

On 17/06/2014 21:19, David Hill wrote:
At Aldi this afternoon they had Veg plants, tomato, peppers, chillies,
aubergines and I think cucumber plants in 9 inch pots at just £2.99
and very good plants


Their hanging baskets are very cheap.

One of the reasons that British growers struggle to make a living.


I thought the Dutch were the main reason for that?

And those hanging baskets look cheap, imo. There's a paucity of plants
in a green plastic bowl which the plants rarely fill or cover.

'One' of the reasons. Tesco sells plants, B&Q sells plants - many
others sell plants, sometimes badly looked after and of the bog
standard type but they're cheap, so... As one small nursery owner
said to us "I don't sell bread or paint so why are they allowed to sell
plants?"

How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or paint of they
wanted to?


I think we've already established that excessive regulation prevents that

On 21/06/2014 08:57, Martin wrote:
On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 07:51:53 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

On 20/06/2014 20:53, Judith in England wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jun 2014 15:07:05 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2014-06-18 16:47:57 +0000, stuart noble said:

On 18/06/2014 14:54, Martin wrote:
On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 12:57:03 +0100, Saxman
wrote:

On 17/06/2014 21:19, David Hill wrote:
At Aldi this afternoon they had Veg plants, tomato, peppers, chillies,
aubergines and I think cucumber plants in 9 inch pots at just £2.99
and very good plants


Their hanging baskets are very cheap.

One of the reasons that British growers struggle to make a living.


I thought the Dutch were the main reason for that?

And those hanging baskets look cheap, imo. There's a paucity of plants
in a green plastic bowl which the plants rarely fill or cover.

'One' of the reasons. Tesco sells plants, B&Q sells plants - many
others sell plants, sometimes badly looked after and of the bog
standard type but they're cheap, so... As one small nursery owner
said to us "I don't sell bread or paint so why are they allowed to sell
plants?"

How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or paint of they
wanted to?


I think we've already established that excessive regulation prevents that

Paint?

Solvents. Flammable. Sharp intake of breath......

And those hanging baskets look cheap, imo. There's a paucity of plants
in a green plastic bowl which the plants rarely fill or cover.

The hanging pots I have seen at Aldi were well filled and if looked
after and fed would give a good show

'One' of the reasons. Tesco sells plants, B&Q sells plants - many
others sell plants, sometimes badly looked after and of the bog
standard type but they're cheap, so... As one small nursery owner
said to us "I don't sell bread or paint so why are they allowed to
sell
plants?"

How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or
paint of they
wanted to?


I think we've already established that excessive regulation prevents
that

Paint?

Solvents. Flammable. Sharp intake of breath......

But what about Artists paints etc?

On 21/06/14 20:34, stuart noble wrote:



How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or
paint of they
wanted to?


I think we've already established that excessive regulation prevents
that

Paint?

Solvents. Flammable. Sharp intake of breath......

These days most paints are water-based.

--
Bernard Peek

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 07:51:53 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

snip

How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or paint of they
wanted to?


I think we've already established that excessive regulation prevents that


Have we? Just because someone says it, does not make it true, Can you point
out what these regulations are please.

On 2014-06-21 21:32:20 +0000, Judith in England said:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 07:51:53 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

snip

How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or paint of they
wanted to?


I think we've already established that excessive regulation prevents that


Have we? Just because someone says it, does not make it true, Can you point
out what these regulations are please.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that running a business is
subject to innumerable rules nowadays. I have described some of them
and told this group that I have talked to relevant authorities. If you
refute this, it is up to you to prove your argument. Show us otherwise
please and demonstrate how you know this to be the case.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 23:05:51 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2014-06-21 21:32:20 +0000, Judith in England said:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 07:51:53 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

snip

How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or paint of they
wanted to?


I think we've already established that excessive regulation prevents that


Have we? Just because someone says it, does not make it true, Can you point
out what these regulations are please.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that running a business is
subject to innumerable rules nowadays. I have described some of them
and told this group that I have talked to relevant authorities. If you
refute this, it is up to you to prove your argument. Show us otherwise
please and demonstrate how you know this to be the case.


I have asked the question in the moderated legal group - and the consensus
there is that it is purely a planning matter.

What regulations do you think apply which prohibits you from having a shop at
the nursery (assuming that you just modify the planning application) and
selling more or less what you like?


It is of course impossible to prove that "no regulations apply" - but quite
easy to show that "these specific regulations apply : so could you say what
they are please.

On 2014-06-22 08:52:47 +0000, Judith in England said:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 23:05:51 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2014-06-21 21:32:20 +0000, Judith in England said:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 07:51:53 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

snip

How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or paint of they
wanted to?


I think we've already established that excessive regulation prevents that


Have we? Just because someone says it, does not make it true, Can you point
out what these regulations are please.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that running a business is
subject to innumerable rules nowadays. I have described some of them
and told this group that I have talked to relevant authorities. If you
refute this, it is up to you to prove your argument. Show us otherwise
please and demonstrate how you know this to be the case.


I have asked the question in the moderated legal group - and the consensus
there is that it is purely a planning matter.

What regulations do you think apply which prohibits you from having a shop at
the nursery (assuming that you just modify the planning application) and
selling more or less what you like?


It is of course impossible to prove that "no regulations apply" - but quite
easy to show that "these specific regulations apply : so could you say what
they are please.

I'm afraid I don't have the time to do your research for you. This
became a general discussion about what is and isn't permitted in *our*
catering establishment, not a shop which would invoke an entirely
different set of regulations, in which we're not interested. We don't
have a shop and we don't want one, so it's irrelevant to the issues
raised above. If you or anyone else run such a catering business and
want to add a shop to it, then I'm sure you'll find out the regs for
yourselves. Depending on what you decide to sell, your local authority
will tell you what safety or hygiene precautions have to be observed.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Sun, 22 Jun 2014 11:05:49 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2014-06-22 08:52:47 +0000, Judith in England said:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 23:05:51 +0100, Sacha wrote:

On 2014-06-21 21:32:20 +0000, Judith in England said:

On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 07:51:53 +0100, stuart noble
wrote:

snip

How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or paint of they
wanted to?


I think we've already established that excessive regulation prevents that


Have we? Just because someone says it, does not make it true, Can you point
out what these regulations are please.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that running a business is
subject to innumerable rules nowadays. I have described some of them
and told this group that I have talked to relevant authorities. If you
refute this, it is up to you to prove your argument. Show us otherwise
please and demonstrate how you know this to be the case.


I have asked the question in the moderated legal group - and the consensus
there is that it is purely a planning matter.

What regulations do you think apply which prohibits you from having a shop at
the nursery (assuming that you just modify the planning application) and
selling more or less what you like?


It is of course impossible to prove that "no regulations apply" - but quite
easy to show that "these specific regulations apply : so could you say what
they are please.

I'm afraid I don't have the time to do your research for you.


I don't need or wish to do any research.

I said: "How about because the small nursery owner *could* sell bread or paint
if they wanted to?"

I was then told :"I think we've already established that excessive regulation
prevents that".


That is clearly untrue: which was the only point I was making.

You jumped in with what you could do in your "catering establishment": not
exactly the same as a small nursery.

I could not give a toss what you sell in your "catering establishment" - and I
certainly have not claimed that you could sell paint, bread, or anything else
in such a place.

I welcome your explanation of the regulations which prohibit small nurseries
(the subject of the discussion) selling things other than plants: there may
well be some, however, I am not aware of them -and for that matter no one else
seems to be either.


(Have you ever been known to be wrong in this newsgroup?)