In article ,
writes
Kay Easton wrote:
In article , Someone
Like You writes
What disagreement can you possibly have with science that has proof???

Midsummer day is not a scientific concept. It is a traditional date,
like Christmas Day. It is therefore not provable by scientific means
(other than by the methods of historical research to determine when
people in the past have celebrated it).

It's more than "traditional", it's a Quarter Day (see my other
comment).

Your demonstration that it is a quarter day seems a lot more convincing
to my mind than the other poster's demonstration that the summer
solstice is on Jun 21st and his assertion without proof that midsummer
day must also be on jun 21st.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:147436

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
writes
Kay Easton wrote:
In article , Someone
Like You writes
What disagreement can you possibly have with science that has proof???

Midsummer day is not a scientific concept. It is a traditional date,
like Christmas Day. It is therefore not provable by scientific means
(other than by the methods of historical research to determine when
people in the past have celebrated it).

It's more than "traditional", it's a Quarter Day (see my other
comment).

Your demonstration that it is a quarter day seems a lot more convincing
to my mind than the other poster's demonstration that the summer
solstice is on Jun 21st and his assertion without proof that midsummer
day must also be on jun 21st.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

My assertion actually was that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for
anything to be celebrated on the 24th June. Tradition is not a reason. The
24th June has no real signifigance. At all.

"Martin Richards" wrote in message
...
OK, time to wade in...

"June Hughes" wrote
Someone Like You writes
What disagreement can you possibly have with science that has proof???

If you want any further clarification, let me know!

No comment except to say that the longest day and Midsummers day are two
different things.

What tosh, I thinks, of course midsummer's day co-incides with the
solstice... I've been to Sweden and watched the dancing round the
midsummer
pole on the solstice. So I did a bit of googling...


Thank you for your agreement!

http://www.irishfestivals.net/midsummersday.htm says:
The festival is primarily a Celtic fire festival, representing the
middle of summer, and the shortening of the days on their gradual march to
winter. Midsummer is traditionally celebrated on either the 23rd or 24th
of
June, although the longest day actually falls on the 21st of June. The
importance of the day to our ancestors can be traced back many thousands
of
years, and many stone circles and other ancient monuments are aligned to
the
sunrise on Midsummer's Day. Probably the most famous alignment is that at
Stonehenge, where the sun rises over the heel stone, framed by the giant
trilithons on Midsummer morning.

This last bit is a little odd, as I thought all the pagans and druids hung
out at stonehenge on the solstice not 24 June - perhaps the 'real' ones do
go on 24th, of course, in peace and solitude, while letting the 'trendy'
pagans (and the media) clutter up the solstice in ignorance ;-) That
said,
this explanation ties in nicely with Christmas, which is, by timing, a
modern hijacking of an older festival, also a few days after the solstice.

So with several sites confirming that 21st is Midsummer's Day in Sweden,
while several others claim Midsummers is also known as St John's Day and
celebrated on 23-24 June (another Christian hijacking?), I think it is
reasonably safe to say that Midsummer's day can be what and when you want
it
to be, and its date bears no fundamental relationship to the solstice.

There are however some confused people out the
http://www.bbhs.suffolk.sch.uk/tradi...midsummer.html claims
that
"Midsummer is celebrated at the summer solstice in June. It's a festival
of
light and midsummer's beauty. Sun is longest above the horizon and in the
north all the night. It's called "nightless night". Midsummer June 24 th
is
also a day of the Finnish flag." This seems to be a UK school's site, so
I'm a little concerned that they seem to think the solstice is 24 June -
and
even if they don't, they should be making it clearer that they undestand
the
difference!

Ho hum...

Martin, getting ready to duck ;-)

Mark wrote:
My assertion actually was that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for
anything to be celebrated on the 24th June. Tradition is not a reason. The
24th June has no real signifigance. At all.

Except that it's a Quarter Day which has some legal significance and
its name (as a Quarter Day) is Midsummer Day. It's also the feast od
St. john the Baptist.

I agree it's not the summer solstice though. :-)

--
Chris Green )

In article , Mark
writes

My assertion actually was that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for
anything to be celebrated on the 24th June. Tradition is not a reason. The
24th June has no real signifigance. At all.


Are you really God?? Do you really exist? I am Stunned! Amen!
--
June Hughes

The message
from June Hughes contains these words:

In article , Mark
writes

My assertion actually was that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for
anything to be celebrated on the 24th June. Tradition is not a reason. The
24th June has no real signifigance. At all.


Are you really God?? Do you really exist? I am Stunned! Amen!

Gedaway. If God existed, why would She have allowed a man to rewrite
the calendar?

Janet.

"June Hughes" wrote in message
...
In article , Mark
writes

My assertion actually was that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever
for
anything to be celebrated on the 24th June. Tradition is not a reason.
The
24th June has no real signifigance. At all.


Are you really God?? Do you really exist? I am Stunned! Amen!
--
June Hughes

LOL

In article , Mark
writes
"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...

Your demonstration that it is a quarter day seems a lot more convincing
to my mind than the other poster's demonstration that the summer
solstice is on Jun 21st and his assertion without proof that midsummer
day must also be on jun 21st.

My assertion actually was that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for
anything to be celebrated on the 24th June. Tradition is not a reason. The
24th June has no real signifigance. At all.

Would you also apply that to the various religious festivals? After all,
they have nothing other than tradition behind them.


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:147780


"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Mark
writes
"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...

Your demonstration that it is a quarter day seems a lot more convincing
to my mind than the other poster's demonstration that the summer
solstice is on Jun 21st and his assertion without proof that midsummer
day must also be on jun 21st.

My assertion actually was that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever
for
anything to be celebrated on the 24th June. Tradition is not a reason.
The
24th June has no real signifigance. At all.

Would you also apply that to the various religious festivals? After all,
they have nothing other than tradition behind them.


Examples??? Please.

--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

In article , Mark
writes

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Mark
writes
"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...

Your demonstration that it is a quarter day seems a lot more convincing
to my mind than the other poster's demonstration that the summer
solstice is on Jun 21st and his assertion without proof that midsummer
day must also be on jun 21st.

My assertion actually was that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever
for
anything to be celebrated on the 24th June. Tradition is not a reason.
The
24th June has no real signifigance. At all.

Would you also apply that to the various religious festivals? After all,
they have nothing other than tradition behind them.


Examples??? Please.

Christmas. No scientific evidence at all that it is the anniversary of
Christ's birth. Easter, Ascension Day. I won't go into other religions
but I suspect they have no more scientific basis.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

Come on you brain dead TROLLS get a life.
This repetitious thread is getting very boring and about to go into the
Ignore pile.
Which will be a first for urgling.

"Mark" wrote in message ...
Look everyone...we need to clear up one or two points here.

(1) 21st June is the Summer Solstice, which to most people is traditionally
called Midsummers Day or the 'Start of Summer' (which I think is weird, but
hey...). It is the longest day of the yesr for the northern hemisphere, and
is determined by the Earth's orbital inclination, or tilt, of 23.5 degrees.

I've come a little late to this thread so may have missed something -
but there is something about Midsummer?s Day which no-one seems to
have mentioned. At least this is my understanding of the definition.

The longest day or the summer solstice is (by definition) the day with
the longest time between sunrise and sunset. I don't think anyone
would disagree with that although astronomically it is not always on
the 21st June because of drifts around the 400 year cycle of leap
years.

Although the solstice is the longest day bizarrely it IS NOT the day
on which the sun sets the latest - that occurs about four days later
around the 25th June. Of course the sun rises proportionally later so
the day is shorter than the solstice. I have always understood this
day to be Midsummer?s Day.

I guess what I am trying to say is that Midsummer Day celebrations
occur when they do because of an astronomical phenomena not on some
arbitrary date.

If you want to check this for your own location you can get a complete
list of sunrise/sunset times he
http://www.schoolsobservatory.org.uk/uninow/sunrs/ and there is more
about timekeeping and astronomy at the Royal Greenwich Observatory
site he http://www.nmm.ac.uk/site/navId/00500300f00h including a
definition of he Equation of Time which (I think) explains this
difference in terms of the earths tilt and its elliptical orbit around
the sun.

Just my contribution. Now back to the gardening.

Andrew

ooo...I'm sorry..don't you like our discussion???

Then don't read it!!!

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

Come on you brain dead TROLLS get a life.
This repetitious thread is getting very boring and about to go into the
Ignore pile.
Which will be a first for urgling.

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
news
In article , Mark
writes

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Mark
writes
"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...

Your demonstration that it is a quarter day seems a lot more
convincing
to my mind than the other poster's demonstration that the summer
solstice is on Jun 21st and his assertion without proof that
midsummer
day must also be on jun 21st.

My assertion actually was that there is absolutely no reason
whatsoever
for
anything to be celebrated on the 24th June. Tradition is not a reason.
The
24th June has no real signifigance. At all.

Would you also apply that to the various religious festivals? After
all,
they have nothing other than tradition behind them.


Examples??? Please.

Christmas. No scientific evidence at all that it is the anniversary of
Christ's birth. Easter, Ascension Day. I won't go into other religions
but I suspect they have no more scientific basis.
--
Kay Easton

Yes, I agree entirely...no reason. But at least we know what each of those
is supposed to represent - Christ's birthday etc...what does 'midsummers
day' on 24th June actually represent? It isn't the middle of summer
(presumably that is the literal meaning of midsummer?), and it doesn't have
any physical signifigance.

My original point was that although 24th MAY have had such a signifigance,
before subsequent changes to the calendar.

Anyway before David gets even more upset (boo hoo, boo hoo)...conversation
closed!

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

"Andrew May" wrote in message
m...
"Mark" wrote in message
...
Look everyone...we need to clear up one or two points here.

(1) 21st June is the Summer Solstice, which to most people is
traditionally
called Midsummers Day or the 'Start of Summer' (which I think is weird,
but
hey...). It is the longest day of the yesr for the northern hemisphere,
and
is determined by the Earth's orbital inclination, or tilt, of 23.5
degrees.

I've come a little late to this thread so may have missed something -
but there is something about Midsummer?s Day which no-one seems to
have mentioned. At least this is my understanding of the definition.

The longest day or the summer solstice is (by definition) the day with
the longest time between sunrise and sunset. I don't think anyone
would disagree with that although astronomically it is not always on
the 21st June because of drifts around the 400 year cycle of leap
years.
The true year length is 365.256 days, but we use the Tropical Year (which
allows for the precession of the Earth's tilted axis) to keep our dates
constant - this is 365.2422 days...so we have leap years. These keep our
calendar in step, not out of it!!!

1 extra day every 4 years would account for 0.25 days and would make the
calendar out of step by 3 days every 400 years! So we drop the leap day
every 100 years except when it is divisible by 400 - e.g. 1600, 2000.

So, with this system in place, all solstices and equinoxes fall on the same
day each year! It produces an error of 1 day every 300 years!

Although the solstice is the longest day bizarrely it IS NOT the day
on which the sun sets the latest - that occurs about four days later
around the 25th June. Of course the sun rises proportionally later so
the day is shorter than the solstice. I have always understood this
day to be Midsummer?s Day.

Not true - see below!


I guess what I am trying to say is that Midsummer Day celebrations
occur when they do because of an astronomical phenomena not on some
arbitrary date.

If you want to check this for your own location you can get a complete
list of sunrise/sunset times he
http://www.schoolsobservatory.org.uk/uninow/sunrs/ and there is more
about timekeeping and astronomy at the Royal Greenwich Observatory
site he http://www.nmm.ac.uk/site/navId/00500300f00h including a
definition of he Equation of Time which (I think) explains this
difference in terms of the earths tilt and its elliptical orbit around
the sun.

That is a GREAT site - must use that in future. However, if you look at a
variety of longitudes, the latest sunset falls between 21st June and 6th
July - it is not the same in all places. e.g. try pacific coat of the U.S. -
latest sunset is 29/6 to 1/7!!!

So, still has no real meaning!

Just my contribution. Now back to the gardening.

Andrew