I was thrilled when I had a new wildlife pond and bog garden installed a
couple of weeks ago - but not so thrilled to see that the landscape
gardener had lined the pond with the subsoil that he had excavated from
"the hole" - because our subsoil happens to be horrible, yellow clay,
unlike the better, though sandy topsoil that he buried/left in a heap at
the side of the garden :-((.

Two weeks later, and the pond water still has a murky, yellow cloudiness
- which I assume is the suspension of fine clay particles still floating
around in it.

Questions - will it finally settle more (am I just being impatient?), or
am I doomed to cloudy water unless I drain the pond, scrape out the clay
and add another layer of larger particle topsoil?

To avoid this, is there any sort of flocculent that I can add to the
water to help to clear it - or will even that only be a temporary
measure?

Help, please - what can I do to get the reasonably clear water that I
was hoping to see by now?? I don't expect miracles, and I know that the
oxygenators and surface cover need to become established before I get a
decent mini eco system operating there - but the murk that I look at
each time I work there is horrible - and at the moment, I am very
disappointed.
--

Roz Cawley
Autumn Cottage Diary http://www.autumncottage.co.uk

Clay has been used as a lining for all sorts of water containers from water
holes for domesticated animals to the lining used for canals and other man-made
waterways. I suggest patience, though I'd suggest turning off any water pumps
(if you have them fitted) until the clay particles settle out. They are
incredibly small and take a while to settle. Having any water flowing through
a water feature will mean that this process takes days, or weeks rather than a
day or so. I'm not sure as this advice will help. I don't really have enough
in the way of details to give you any really helpful advice. I wish you all
the best.

Dave.

Roz Cawley wrote in message
...
I was thrilled when I had a new wildlife pond and bog garden installed a
couple of weeks ago - but not so thrilled to see that the landscape
gardener had lined the pond with the subsoil that he had excavated from
"the hole" - because our subsoil happens to be horrible, yellow clay,
unlike the better, though sandy topsoil that he buried/left in a heap at
the side of the garden :-((.

Two weeks later, and the pond water still has a murky, yellow cloudiness
- which I assume is the suspension of fine clay particles still floating
around in it.

Questions - will it finally settle more (am I just being impatient?), or
am I doomed to cloudy water unless I drain the pond, scrape out the clay
and add another layer of larger particle topsoil?

To avoid this, is there any sort of flocculent that I can add to the
water to help to clear it - or will even that only be a temporary
measure?

Help, please - what can I do to get the reasonably clear water that I
was hoping to see by now?? I don't expect miracles, and I know that the
oxygenators and surface cover need to become established before I get a
decent mini eco system operating there - but the murk that I look at
each time I work there is horrible - and at the moment, I am very
disappointed.

Patience is the key. I made a pond digging a hole directly into clay without
using a liner and after a month or so the water cleared. Even when I top up
the pond now, the water remains clear. I added a bit of pond weed and 2 pond
snails and hoped for the best - it worked! (I hadn't a clue). Only problem
for me is that the clay retains the water less than I thought it would :-(


--

Roz Cawley
Autumn Cottage Diary http://www.autumncottage.co.uk

Roz Cawley wrote in message
...
I was thrilled when I had a new wildlife pond and bog garden installed a
couple of weeks ago - but not so thrilled to see that the landscape
gardener had lined the pond with the subsoil that he had excavated from
"the hole" - because our subsoil happens to be horrible, yellow clay,
unlike the better, though sandy topsoil that he buried/left in a heap at
the side of the garden :-((.

Two weeks later, and the pond water still has a murky, yellow cloudiness
- which I assume is the suspension of fine clay particles still floating
around in it.

Questions - will it finally settle more (am I just being impatient?), or
am I doomed to cloudy water unless I drain the pond, scrape out the clay
and add another layer of larger particle topsoil?

To avoid this, is there any sort of flocculent that I can add to the
water to help to clear it - or will even that only be a temporary
measure?

Help, please - what can I do to get the reasonably clear water that I
was hoping to see by now?? I don't expect miracles, and I know that the
oxygenators and surface cover need to become established before I get a
decent mini eco system operating there - but the murk that I look at
each time I work there is horrible - and at the moment, I am very
disappointed.

Patience is the key. I made a pond digging a hole directly into clay without
using a liner and after a month or so the water cleared. Even when I top up
the pond now, the water remains clear. I added a bit of pond weed and 2 pond
snails and hoped for the best - it worked! (I hadn't a clue). Only problem
for me is that the clay retains the water less than I thought it would :-(


--

Roz Cawley
Autumn Cottage Diary http://www.autumncottage.co.uk

In article , Roz Cawley
writes
I was thrilled when I had a new wildlife pond and bog garden installed a
couple of weeks ago - but not so thrilled to see that the landscape
gardener had lined the pond with the subsoil that he had excavated from
"the hole" - because our subsoil happens to be horrible, yellow clay,

I thought you wanted a bog garden?

unlike the better, though sandy topsoil that he buried/left in a heap at
the side of the garden :-((.

What would you have *wanted* him to do with this?

Two weeks later, and the pond water still has a murky, yellow cloudiness

As the murkiness from the soil diminishes, you will get a build up of
algae which will make the pond appear equally murky. This is quite
normal in a new pond and will clear. It can take up to three years, in
some cases, for a pond to clear naturally.

- which I assume is the suspension of fine clay particles still floating
around in it.

We set in a small pond last year and it has taken about a year for it
to clear - and it was a plastic pond which we did our best to keep soil
out of, not entirely successfully.
The best way with a pond it to make sure you have plenty of surface
hugging plants and lots of patience. Work with nature - forget
chemicals.
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

Roz Cawley wrote:

I was thrilled when I had a new wildlife pond and bog garden installed a
couple of weeks ago - but not so thrilled to see that the landscape
gardener had lined the pond with the subsoil that he had excavated from
"the hole" - because our subsoil happens to be horrible, yellow clay,
unlike the better, though sandy topsoil that he buried/left in a heap at
the side of the garden :-((.

Two weeks later, and the pond water still has a murky, yellow cloudiness
- which I assume is the suspension of fine clay particles still floating
around in it.

Questions - will it finally settle more (am I just being impatient?), or
am I doomed to cloudy water unless I drain the pond, scrape out the clay
and add another layer of larger particle topsoil?

To avoid this, is there any sort of flocculent that I can add to the
water to help to clear it - or will even that only be a temporary
measure?

Help, please - what can I do to get the reasonably clear water that I
was hoping to see by now?? I don't expect miracles, and I know that the
oxygenators and surface cover need to become established before I get a
decent mini eco system operating there - but the murk that I look at
each time I work there is horrible - and at the moment, I am very
disappointed.

As others have said, patience is probably all that is required.
Temperature also has an effect and as the weather start to cool off,
you'll probably find the pond clears.

I would also suggest putting in some barley straw - this will act as an
algicide and help to keep the pond clear next year. It takes quite a
while for the straw to start working - up to 3 months and probably
longer if added in cold weather, so I'd suggest putting some in during
September. The amount will depend on the size of the pond but if you
visit your nearest garden pond centre, they can advise on the amount.
--
Larry Stoter

In article , Jane Ransom
writes
In article , Roz Cawley
writes
I was thrilled when I had a new wildlife pond and bog garden installed a
couple of weeks ago - but not so thrilled to see that the landscape
gardener had lined the pond with the subsoil that he had excavated from
"the hole" - because our subsoil happens to be horrible, yellow clay,

I thought you wanted a bog garden?

Yes - indeed I did - but even in a bog garden, I think plants appreciate
*some* decent quality soil. They have a little more of that now, with
six sacks of (my own) compost dug in to enrich it a little, and handfuls
of flints also taken out.

unlike the better, though sandy topsoil that he buried/left in a heap at
the side of the garden :-((.

What would you have *wanted* him to do with this?

I appreciated him leaving the soil, but would have appreciated it more
if the topsoil had been saved separately from the lumps of yellow clay.
Fortunately, it is bone dry at the moment - so easier to separate
(because of course, I have 28 hours in every day to do this! :-))


We set in a small pond last year and it has taken about a year for it
to clear - and it was a plastic pond which we did our best to keep soil
out of, not entirely successfully.

The soil lining the pond is to provide hibernation protection for all
the frogs and toads that we *hope* will arrive there. I have plenty of
toads in my garden - but no frogs - no chance, with al the fish that
used to be in there (but are now removed and residing in the shell that
was previously on the same site.

The best way with a pond it to make sure you have plenty of surface
hugging plants and lots of patience. Work with nature - forget
chemicals.

I would be only to happy to, Jane - appreciate the advice. Now to seek
out some more surface plants.

Thanks!

--

Roz Cawley
Autumn Cottage Diary http://www.autumncottage.co.uk

"Roz Cawley" wrote in message
...
I was thrilled when I had a new wildlife pond and bog garden installed a
couple of weeks ago - but not so thrilled to see that the landscape
gardener had lined the pond with the subsoil that he had excavated from
"the hole" - because our subsoil happens to be horrible, yellow clay,
unlike the better, though sandy topsoil that he buried/left in a heap at
the side of the garden :-((.

Two weeks later, and the pond water still has a murky, yellow cloudiness
- which I assume is the suspension of fine clay particles still floating
around in it.

Questions - will it finally settle more (am I just being impatient?), or
am I doomed to cloudy water unless I drain the pond, scrape out the clay
and add another layer of larger particle topsoil?

To avoid this, is there any sort of flocculent that I can add to the
water to help to clear it - or will even that only be a temporary
measure?

Help, please - what can I do to get the reasonably clear water that I
was hoping to see by now?? I don't expect miracles, and I know that the
oxygenators and surface cover need to become established before I get a
decent mini eco system operating there - but the murk that I look at
each time I work there is horrible - and at the moment, I am very
disappointed.
--

Roz Cawley
Autumn Cottage Diary http://www.autumncottage.co.uk

Roz,

your choice to go with a pond lined with soil/clay instead of a
plastic/butyl liner will increase the time before the pond stabilises.

Our butyl lined pond stabilised in about a week (I was expecting months) and
our plantings in special pond compost in baskets quickly established.

We also 'blagged' some weed and some small goldfish from a friend to get the
bio population up quickly.

Depends what you regard as a 'wildlife' pond.

We have a variety of plants, dragonflies, newts, frogs, as well as several
generations of fish.

By now there is a rich tilth in the pond, as plant leaves die in the autumn
and leaves from trees drift in (not to forget what goldfish do after
eating).

It will soon be time to remove some of the silt - all ponds gradually fill
up over the years and need cleaning out.

Until recently we have not fed the fish because when we tried they were not
interested. Presumably there was enough natural food in the pond to keep
them happy. Recently they have started taking food, which makes us think the
pond is now slightly over stocked.

You seem unhappy that there is not topsoil at the bottom of your pond.
Be glad.
Topsoil would make your problems much worse and is not advisable for lining
a pond.
Stacking the topsoil removed when digging the pond seems a sensible thing to
do - you can now use it elsewhere in the garden.
Sounds as though you had a good landscape gardener.

Get plenty of plants in there and the pond will soon settle down.
The plants will also conceal the yellow water.
As with borders, you can always thin them out later.

Once it is a little more stable a few fish would be good.
They keep the mosquito larvae down as well as being interesting to watch.

Finally - two weeks???? - if it upsets you, look away.
Most biological systems take a while to stabilise.
You wouldn't expect a lawn to grow from seed and establish in two weeks.
You wouldn't expect fruit trees, grape vines, food crops, anything to be
fully mature two weeks after your initial planting.
This is like complaining that a climbing rose still hasn't completely
concealed your pergola in two weeks :-)

If you wanted a pond to be clear after two weeks you should have had a
plastic/butyl liner, filled it with tap water, then put some ready potted
plants from an aquatic centre in there.
You would then have had something that looked like an established pond very
quickly but which would then take a while to establish a true ecosystem.

You should treat this like a new border - ignore the fact that the shrubs
and bedding plants look lost in the great expanse of bare newly turned soil
and visualise how it will look once they have established and grown.

HTH
Dave R

In article , Roz Cawley
writes

Yes - indeed I did - but even in a bog garden, I think plants appreciate
*some* decent quality soil. They have a little more of that now, with
six sacks of (my own) compost dug in to enrich it a little,

A mistake, Roz
Sorry to have to say this, but next year, with all those nutrients in
the water, I think you are going to have a helluva problem with blanket
weed (((

The soil lining the pond is to provide hibernation protection for all
the frogs and toads that we *hope* will arrive there.

They will find it ok
But the pond would have filled up with silt and stuff naturally over
time. BTW frogs like lots of pond weed and stuff to hide in - they don't
like clear water.

I have plenty of
toads in my garden - but no frogs - no chance, with al the fish that
used to be in there (but are now removed and residing in the shell that
was previously on the same site.

Ah!!! Your bog pond has no liner of any sort?
Then that is obviously why your pond creator lined it with clay.
He seemed to know what he was about, after all !!!!

Good luck

--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

In article , David W.E.
Roberts writes

Finally - two weeks???? - if it upsets you, look away.
Most biological systems take a while to stabilise.
You wouldn't expect a lawn to grow from seed and establish in two weeks.
You wouldn't expect fruit trees, grape vines, food crops, anything to be
fully mature two weeks after your initial planting.
This is like complaining that a climbing rose still hasn't completely
concealed your pergola in two weeks :-)

If you wanted a pond to be clear after two weeks you should have had a
plastic/butyl liner, filled it with tap water, then put some ready potted
plants from an aquatic centre in there.

Even I have more patience than that, David ;-). And to be fair, I am
talking about water clearing, not plants growing. I do not expect
miracles, but the murk has not cleared even slightly, and I was just
afraid that I had done something mistaken by leaving the clay in the
pond - apparently not. I'm just being a worrier - as usual.

As for looking away - not likely, it's far too interesting!

The thought of putting the fish back in amuses me though - I've just
taken 20 or so out, as I thought they were the cause of nothing else
thriving in there. (Except the water lilies - of which I now have 16,
after splitting up the original one in the spring. I guess that figures,
though, with all the "fertiliser" in there :-))

I guess I am going to have two pools with fish on the go now - and then,
of course, there is the water feature that my son wants to build outside
the bathroom window, so he can watch it while he......no, you don't want
any more details, I'm sure!
--

Roz Cawley
Autumn Cottage Diary http://www.autumncottage.co.uk

In article , Jane Ransom
writes
In article , Roz Cawley
writes

Yes - indeed I did - but even in a bog garden, I think plants appreciate
*some* decent quality soil. They have a little more of that now, with
six sacks of (my own) compost dug in to enrich it a little,

A mistake, Roz
Sorry to have to say this, but next year, with all those nutrients in
the water, I think you are going to have a helluva problem with blanket
weed (((

Ah, no, Jane - the bog garden is completely separate from the pond.
Separated by two recycled railway sleepers atop a bank - and very nice
they look too. The bog garden is lined (with blue plastic - cos it was
being buried) - and the new pond has a butyl liner. The soil in the pond
is definitely not full of nutrients - just full of clay!

Oh, it would be easier to show you a pic

http://www.delamici.demon.co.uk/pond1.jpg

bog garden on left of photo - pond on the right - about three days after
filling.

I don't mean to sound as if I am slagging off the landscaper - he did do
a very nice job - it was just the mixing of subsoil and topsoil that was
a pain - I have suffered from the results of the same thing that
happened a few years ago when we took over the garden next door and had
a whole garden of weeds to clear. We had them sprayed and then "buried"
- 300 years of topsoil were buried along with it and up came the
flipping yellow clay to reside on the surface!

Acky stuff, as my Welsh Mum would have said.



--

Roz Cawley
Autumn Cottage Diary http://www.autumncottage.co.uk

"Roz Cawley" wrote in message
...
In article , Jane Ransom
writes
In article , Roz Cawley
writes

Yes - indeed I did - but even in a bog garden, I think plants appreciate
*some* decent quality soil. They have a little more of that now, with
six sacks of (my own) compost dug in to enrich it a little,

A mistake, Roz
Sorry to have to say this, but next year, with all those nutrients in
the water, I think you are going to have a helluva problem with blanket
weed (((

Ah, no, Jane - the bog garden is completely separate from the pond.
Separated by two recycled railway sleepers atop a bank - and very nice
they look too. The bog garden is lined (with blue plastic - cos it was
being buried) - and the new pond has a butyl liner. The soil in the pond
is definitely not full of nutrients - just full of clay!

Oh, it would be easier to show you a pic

http://www.delamici.demon.co.uk/pond1.jpg

The picture tells me that you are all set for a rather nice corner in your
garden. Be patient.

Franz


bog garden on left of photo - pond on the right - about three days after
filling.

I don't mean to sound as if I am slagging off the landscaper - he did do
a very nice job - it was just the mixing of subsoil and topsoil that was
a pain - I have suffered from the results of the same thing that
happened a few years ago when we took over the garden next door and had
a whole garden of weeds to clear. We had them sprayed and then "buried"
- 300 years of topsoil were buried along with it and up came the
flipping yellow clay to reside on the surface!

Acky stuff, as my Welsh Mum would have said.



--

Roz Cawley
Autumn Cottage Diary http://www.autumncottage.co.uk

"Roz Cawley" wrote in message
...
snip
Even I have more patience than that, David ;-). And to be fair, I am
talking about water clearing, not plants growing. I do not expect
miracles, but the murk has not cleared even slightly, and I was just
afraid that I had done something mistaken by leaving the clay in the
pond - apparently not. I'm just being a worrier - as usual.

As for looking away - not likely, it's far too interesting!

The thought of putting the fish back in amuses me though - I've just
taken 20 or so out, as I thought they were the cause of nothing else
thriving in there. (Except the water lilies - of which I now have 16,
after splitting up the original one in the spring. I guess that figures,
though, with all the "fertiliser" in there :-))

I guess I am going to have two pools with fish on the go now - and then,
of course, there is the water feature that my son wants to build outside
the bathroom window, so he can watch it while he......no, you don't want
any more details, I'm sure!
--

Roz Cawley
Autumn Cottage Diary http://www.autumncottage.co.uk

Roz,

Looks as though you are doing pretty well after all.
I don't thing the NG as a whole (myself included) fully appreciated your
setup from your first post.
Goldfish (or other carpish things) will eventually grow too large for
tadpoles to survive - we have this problem now.
I think you can get smaller native fish which will eat mosquito larvae but
not eat tadpoles - however I think sticklebacks do eat tadpoles :-(
There was a post a while back (either here or in alt.rec.ponds) which
mentioned small fish.
Our fish share their space with water hawthorn, pond weed (that straggly
stuff which goes berkserk in the summer), lillies and various potted things.
If your fish eat the weed, add more weed until they can't eat it all :-)
I gave some water hawthorn to a friend with a pond which had no plants in -
just a green soup with fish - and the fish ate it in a day.
However our fish don't eat all the weed, so I presume we have enough to fill
them up :-)

Best of luck
Dave R

The message
from Roz Cawley contains these words:

I was thrilled when I had a new wildlife pond and bog garden installed a
couple of weeks ago - but not so thrilled to see that the landscape
gardener had lined the pond with the subsoil that he had excavated from
"the hole" - because our subsoil happens to be horrible, yellow clay,
unlike the better, though sandy topsoil that he buried/left in a heap at
the side of the garden :-((.

He knew what he was doing then.

Two weeks later, and the pond water still has a murky, yellow cloudiness
- which I assume is the suspension of fine clay particles still floating
around in it.

I doubt it.

Questions - will it finally settle more (am I just being impatient?), or
am I doomed to cloudy water unless I drain the pond, scrape out the clay
and add another layer of larger particle topsoil?

You'll just allow the water to escape if you do that. Your gardener
knows what he's about.

To avoid this, is there any sort of flocculent that I can add to the
water to help to clear it - or will even that only be a temporary
measure?

The usual thing is barley straw. You can either put some in a net or bag
in the water, or better, run a small (pond fountain) pump and circulate
the water through some barley straw.

Help, please - what can I do to get the reasonably clear water that I
was hoping to see by now?? I don't expect miracles, and I know that the
oxygenators and surface cover need to become established before I get a
decent mini eco system operating there - but the murk that I look at
each time I work there is horrible - and at the moment, I am very
disappointed.

Ponds take a very long time to settle into equilibrium. Patience.

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm
horrid·squeak snailything zetnet·co·uk exchange d.p. with p to
reply.

The message
from Jane Ransom contains these words:

Yes - indeed I did - but even in a bog garden, I think plants appreciate
*some* decent quality soil. They have a little more of that now, with
six sacks of (my own) compost dug in to enrich it a little,

A mistake, Roz
Sorry to have to say this, but next year, with all those nutrients in
the water, I think you are going to have a helluva problem with blanket
weed (((

Yes, a bog garden should have no rich soil. The bog environment is
mainly peat or similar, acidic, and very poor.

--
Rusty http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/tqt.htm
horrid·squeak snailything zetnet·co·uk exchange d.p. with p to
reply.