In article , Sacha
writes
Malcolm11/4/04 3:53
@inda al.demon.co.uk


In article , Jaques d'Alltrades
writes
The message
from Malcolm contains these words:

Much more likely that late frosts in the spring didn't kill a lot of the
blooms or retard activity of pollinating insects.

But they are just secondary factors. The plant has to have been able to
produce the blooms in the first place, i.e. from its reserves of energy,
before there is anything for frosts or insects to affect.

Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's
dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom.

Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples?

Yes. Oak trees during the 1976 drought produced masses more acorns than
usual; our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We
wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was
dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure
survival of the species.

Err, I'm not sure I follow you. The acorns produced during the 1976
drought were the result of flowers produced that spring, before the
drought started, which in turn were the result of the oaks having
sufficient energy reserves laid down in summer/autumn 1975 to produce
them. Surely the fact that there were still masses of acorns despite the
drought is evidence that the oaks were coping with the conditions rather
well? If they hadn't been coping, I would have expected them to have
shed the acorns long before they reached maturity.

our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We
wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was
dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure
survival of the species.

I assume you mean January 1977. In which case, could it not have been
that, having got its seasons in a muddle, the plant died within a couple
of months *because* it diverted its energies into flower production at
the wrong time, not that it did so because it "knew" it was dying?

You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations
where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to
fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig
trees, for example.

That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the
production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not
the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have
discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall
growth.

--
Malcolm

In article , Sacha
writes
Malcolm13/4/04 10:28
+oGpK7eAFw$9@inda al.demon.co.uk


In article , Jaques d'Alltrades
writes
The message
from Malcolm contains these words:
In article , Jaques d'Alltrades
writes
snip

Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's
dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom.

Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples?

Well known phenomenon.

Which is hardly an answer to my questions :-(

I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience.

To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely
interested though as yet unconvinced.

--
Malcolm

In article , Malcolm
writes

You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations
where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to
fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig
trees, for example.

That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the
production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not
the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have
discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall
growth.

I think the point with the fig is that in the wild it may grow in fairly
scruffy ground - stony, dry, perhaps not much root run - in which case
it produces quite a lot of fruit, or it may grow in fertile ground, in
which case it puts on a lot of lush leafy growth and not so much fruit.

Nasturtiums are similar - in fertile ground they produce masses of leafy
growth and fewer flowers - it's not just that the flowers are hidden by
the bigger leaves, there are fewer flowers than if they are grown on dry
ground.

Lettuces and radishes will grow vegetatively while there is plenty of
water around, but water limitation encourages them to bolt - ie to
produce flowers and seed.

Eucharis - a handsome aspidistra-like plant with white daffodil like
flowers - accepted method to encourage flowering is to withhold water
for a period.

These are merely examples, not botanical oddities.

It makes sense - quite a heavy investment in flower and seed, so while
the ground is good, concentrate on vegetative growth, but if the ground
isn't good, invest in flower production, and maybe one of your offspring
will find itself in better conditions. And by expressing it this way I'm
not implying any conscious decision making process on the plant's
behalf! ;-)
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

Malcolm13/4/04 3:28


In article , Sacha
writes
Malcolm13/4/04 10:28


In article , Jaques d'Alltrades
writes
The message
from Malcolm contains these words:
In article , Jaques d'Alltrades
writes
snip

Not so. When a plant/tree/shrub is badly stressed and 'thinks' it's
dying, it often produces an abundance of bloom.

Interesting. How does it achieve this and have you seen examples?

Well known phenomenon.

Which is hardly an answer to my questions :-(

I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience.

To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely
interested though as yet unconvinced.

If you're interested enough, there are quite a few books on the behaviour of
plants under stress, many of them too deeply scientific to be of interest to
most 'ordinary' gardeners, including myself.
A lot of what is known about plants, their treatment and cultivation is from
generations of observation and some people don't receive that information
for one reason or another.

For example, in that famous drought of '76, my father in law was astonished
to discover that used washing up water and bath water killed off greenfly
because of the soap in both. He was not only much older than me, he was a
much more knowledgeable and expert gardener but I'd known that from a child
because my grandfather used the remedy. When pa-in-law learned this he was
in his 60s. I think a lot of gardeners will have observed that mature
plants under stress will behave as we've been discussing - sort of a 'last
fling', I suppose!

--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)

Malcolm13/4/04 3:28

snip

The acorns produced during the 1976
drought were the result of flowers produced that spring, before the
drought started, which in turn were the result of the oaks having
sufficient energy reserves laid down in summer/autumn 1975 to produce
them. Surely the fact that there were still masses of acorns despite the
drought is evidence that the oaks were coping with the conditions rather
well? If they hadn't been coping, I would have expected them to have
shed the acorns long before they reached maturity.

Well, all I can say is that in Jersey - which is where I observed these
particular trees - the drought lasted from early May to October (following
IIRC a dry spring. We often have a drought in Jersey in February) and
never before or since have I seen so many acorns on oak trees anywhere.

our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We
wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was
dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure
survival of the species.

I assume you mean January 1977.

I meant January of last year.

In which case, could it not have been
that, having got its seasons in a muddle, the plant died within a couple
of months *because* it diverted its energies into flower production at
the wrong time, not that it did so because it "knew" it was dying?

No, because it did not die in '97. It died after blooming in January of
last year. Ray, who known this garden much longer than I have, said he had
never

OTOH, following the drought at the end of last summer, our mimosa tree
bloomed better than it ever has, thus supporting the 'stress' theory even
further. So far, it's still alive!


You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations
where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to
fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig
trees, for example.

That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the
production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not
the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have
discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall
growth.

Neither the oak trees, the mimosa nor the Eucryphia were restricted in any
way. I used the examples above because they mimic natural stress.
Several people have commented to us that they have never seen the gorse on
Dartmoor in such bloom as it is right now; nor so many primroses in the
banks and hedgerows, so many daffodils growing wild etc. etc. and last
autumn was abnormally dry and prolonged. Tonight, without mentioning our
discussion here, I asked one lady what she put all this down to "oh, the
hot weather last year, dear" was her immediate answer. She's 86 and has
gardened a bit in her time.....

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

In article , Sacha
writes
Malcolm13/4/04 3:28
$eAFw$6@inda al.demon.co.uk

snip

The acorns produced during the 1976
drought were the result of flowers produced that spring, before the
drought started, which in turn were the result of the oaks having
sufficient energy reserves laid down in summer/autumn 1975 to produce
them. Surely the fact that there were still masses of acorns despite the
drought is evidence that the oaks were coping with the conditions rather
well? If they hadn't been coping, I would have expected them to have
shed the acorns long before they reached maturity.

Well, all I can say is that in Jersey - which is where I observed these
particular trees - the drought lasted from early May to October (following
IIRC a dry spring. We often have a drought in Jersey in February) and
never before or since have I seen so many acorns on oak trees anywhere.

It was clearly a great seed-setting year.

our Eucryphia amazed us by blooming profusely in January. We
wondered if it was too early or too late - wrong on both counts. It was
dead a couple of months later. The abundance of flower/fruits is to ensure
survival of the species.

I assume you mean January 1977.

I meant January of last year.

Ah, I thought you were still discussing 1976!

In which case, could it not have been
that, having got its seasons in a muddle, the plant died within a couple
of months *because* it diverted its energies into flower production at
the wrong time, not that it did so because it "knew" it was dying?

No, because it did not die in '97. It died after blooming in January of
last year. Ray, who known this garden much longer than I have, said he had
never

I'm now completely lost. What has '97 got to do with anything?????

OTOH, following the drought at the end of last summer, our mimosa tree
bloomed better than it ever has, thus supporting the 'stress' theory even
further. So far, it's still alive!

I'm delighted to hear it.

You will often see recommendations to keep plants in pots or situations
where roots are restricted, for example. This is because it causes them to
fruit or flower better. A lot of people recommend such treatment for fig
trees, for example.

That's not quite the same, though, is it? We were discussing the
production of flowers and fruit by wild-living trees, shrubs, etc., not
the artificial conditions forced on them by gardeners who have
discovered that if you restrict root growth you also restrict overall
growth.

Neither the oak trees, the mimosa nor the Eucryphia were restricted in any
way. I used the examples above because they mimic natural stress.
Several people have commented to us that they have never seen the gorse on
Dartmoor in such bloom as it is right now; nor so many primroses in the
banks and hedgerows, so many daffodils growing wild etc. etc. and last
autumn was abnormally dry and prolonged. Tonight, without mentioning our
discussion here, I asked one lady what she put all this down to "oh, the
hot weather last year, dear" was her immediate answer. She's 86 and has
gardened a bit in her time.....

There's nothing wrong with a bit of hot weather when it comes to helping
plants grow.

--
Malcolm

The message
from Malcolm contains these words:
In article , Sacha
writes

I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience.

To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely
interested though as yet unconvinced.

Well, I haven't the time to enter into arguments about it or google for
you. It's been well-known and well publicised to my knowledge ever since
I began listening to GQT.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades14/4/04 2:23

The message
from Malcolm contains these words:
In article , Sacha
writes

I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience.

To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely
interested though as yet unconvinced.

Well, I haven't the time to enter into arguments about it or google for
you. It's been well-known and well publicised to my knowledge ever since
I began listening to GQT.

I think this is one of those things that many gardeners 'know' but haven't
studied scientifically. However, as I said upthread, if anyone is
interested enough to pursue the matter, there are a lot of books on the
subject.
--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)

In article ,
Sacha writes:
| Jaques d'Alltrades14/4/04 2:23
| | The message
| from Malcolm contains these words:
| In article , Sacha
| writes
|
| I posted an answer upthread, drawn from personal experience.
|
| To which I have just responded. I was now asking Rusty. I'm genuinely
| interested though as yet unconvinced.
|
| Well, I haven't the time to enter into arguments about it or google for
| you. It's been well-known and well publicised to my knowledge ever since
| I began listening to GQT.
|
| I think this is one of those things that many gardeners 'know' but haven't
| studied scientifically. However, as I said upthread, if anyone is
| interested enough to pursue the matter, there are a lot of books on the
| subject.

It has been studied scientifically, and is 'correct', though the
phenomenon isn't quite as simple as that and the explanation isn't
necessarily that one. I don't have a reference, I am afraid.

One other aspect is that plants not under stress often put their
energy into growth and, in many plants, rapid growth and flowering
are more-or-less exclusive. You can see this with spinach, fat
hen and lots of such plants, where a period of stress will stop
their rapid growth and they will then flower (irrespective of
size!)

But exactly what the interactions are I don't know, and I am not
sure that botanists do, either. What is certain is that the
gardeners' rule is effectively correct - stress and flowering are
often linked. Note that, as with many such effects, this applies
to plants adapted to 'seasonal' climates (including the savanna);
those adapted to the humid tropics are more likely to sulk if
stressed.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of
hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place.

Cup of tea?

Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a
shack?

wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have
gone

Glenys

--
"A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry
would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush
called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of
hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place.

Cup of tea?

Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a
shack?

wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have
gone

Glenys

--
"A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry
would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush
called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno

The message
from MissJuggs contains these words:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of
hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place.

Cup of tea?

Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a
shack?

Well, just as long as you leave that jamjar of fossilised paintbrushes,
and those tobacco tins of nials and stuff, and the red checky curtings,
and all those deckchares inna tangle of legses and canvas, andandandand
- well, please don't throw anything away...

Now, you can pwt the 28MHz stuff there..........

wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have
gone

Molish a feature of it. However, if you're using a stick I wooden grow
clematis up it as it hooters yer SWR.

73

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 20:55:57 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

Molish a feature of it. However, if you're using a stick I wooden grow
clematis up it as it hooters yer SWR.

heh

Glenys

--
"A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry
would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush
called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of
hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place.

Cup of tea?

Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a
shack?

wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have
gone

Glenys

--
"A Newsweek poll said if the election were held today, John Kerry
would beat Bush 49 percent to 46 percent. And today, President Bush
called Newsweek magazine a threat to world peace." Jay Leno

The message
from MissJuggs contains these words:
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 03:55:47 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

Come into the potting shed and park yourself on that old sack of
hardened cement I borrowed from Another Place.

Cup of tea?

Aaar. I am now able to be a licensed radio ham, so can we call it a
shack?

Well, just as long as you leave that jamjar of fossilised paintbrushes,
and those tobacco tins of nials and stuff, and the red checky curtings,
and all those deckchares inna tangle of legses and canvas, andandandand
- well, please don't throw anything away...

Now, you can pwt the 28MHz stuff there..........

wondering about where to hide the ariel now that the lilies have
gone

Molish a feature of it. However, if you're using a stick I wooden grow
clematis up it as it hooters yer SWR.

73

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/