On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 23:07:10 +0100, "ajr" wrote:

I'm sure that I must have sampled sorrel at some point, however I must admit
that I have no idea, off the top of my head, what it tastes like!

Rather lemony and astringent.

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

| IMHO, there's a lot of urban myth-making and falsification of the
| historical record where herbs are concerned. Just take a look at
| a copy of the original Mrs. Beeton and you'll see that most herbs
| are rarely mentioned, if at all.
|
| Perhaps what's happened is that famine and poverty foods have
| been mistaken for everyday foods. Certainly, here in the Pacific
| Northwest the Indians were often reduced to dire straits by late
| winter when the previous summer's stash had been consumed and
| would end up eating, inter alia, the young shoots of thimbleberry
| (Rubus parviflorus) for lack of anything better.

No, I don't think that's it. Mrs Beeton was an upper-middle class
urban writer in the Victorian era, and a lot of the remarks are
referring to what the rural peasantry did before the industrial
revolution. VERY different. Remember that large-scale vegetable
farming and long-distance transport were already well established
by Mrs Beeton's time.

I don't think many, if any of the recipes in 'Mrs. Beeton' were written
by her. Her husband was a magazine publisher, and he invited
contributions, many - possibly all - he published untested under his
wife's name.

It is surmised that there was a sort-of competition amongst some
contributors to see who could get the most outrageous recipe published.
Indeed, some of the recipes in the boot are reported not to work at all.

In the 15th century, for example, spices were EXPENSIVE and so the
poorer people used them sparingly. Hence herbs would have been of
more interest for flavouring. Similarly, the foods you would grow
in a vegetable patch if you could not buy any imported foods are
very different from those you grow for shipping into a city and
selling wholesale.

There were plenty of sources of herbs - most monastries had extensive
herb gardens, as did a lot of manor houses and other large
establishments but how many were commonly available I don't know.

There were plenty of wild plants which may have been quite widely
cultivated - ground elder, which was introduced by the Romans and later
cultivated by the monastries (and nowadays is almost exclusively found
near places of ancient habitations), lovage, bur chervil, wild celery,
whorled caraway and tuberous caraway, and other umbelliferae, garlic
mustard, ransomes, crow garlic, wild leel, sand leek, the cresses,
mustard, flower scents (rose, etc), tansy, chamomile, liquorice, various
mints, thymes, clary, and lots more that I can't think of just now. At
least some of these would have been used by a good proportion of the
people.

There is very little written about how the common people cooked,
which doesn't help :-( Try and find anything written about how
the poorer people (or even somewhat richer people in poorer areas)
cookec in even 1950, for example, and it's hard. Try for 1850,
and it's diabolical. Try for 1750, and it's almost impossible.
And so on ....

Hmmm. I have recipe books dating from the 1950s, and the 1940s - though
the latter was full of ways of cooking to make the most of your food
ration.

There are good fish recipes in the Compleat Angler, and I could give you
a madiæval recipe for stuffed swan, though this was hardly a recipe of
hoi polloi.

I think that if you are prepared to dig in the right places (Dr.
Johnson?) you might find more than you expect.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

| IMHO, there's a lot of urban myth-making and falsification of the
| historical record where herbs are concerned. Just take a look at
| a copy of the original Mrs. Beeton and you'll see that most herbs
| are rarely mentioned, if at all.
|
| Perhaps what's happened is that famine and poverty foods have
| been mistaken for everyday foods. Certainly, here in the Pacific
| Northwest the Indians were often reduced to dire straits by late
| winter when the previous summer's stash had been consumed and
| would end up eating, inter alia, the young shoots of thimbleberry
| (Rubus parviflorus) for lack of anything better.

No, I don't think that's it. Mrs Beeton was an upper-middle class
urban writer in the Victorian era, and a lot of the remarks are
referring to what the rural peasantry did before the industrial
revolution. VERY different. Remember that large-scale vegetable
farming and long-distance transport were already well established
by Mrs Beeton's time.

I don't think many, if any of the recipes in 'Mrs. Beeton' were written
by her. Her husband was a magazine publisher, and he invited
contributions, many - possibly all - he published untested under his
wife's name.

It is surmised that there was a sort-of competition amongst some
contributors to see who could get the most outrageous recipe published.
Indeed, some of the recipes in the boot are reported not to work at all.

In the 15th century, for example, spices were EXPENSIVE and so the
poorer people used them sparingly. Hence herbs would have been of
more interest for flavouring. Similarly, the foods you would grow
in a vegetable patch if you could not buy any imported foods are
very different from those you grow for shipping into a city and
selling wholesale.

There were plenty of sources of herbs - most monastries had extensive
herb gardens, as did a lot of manor houses and other large
establishments but how many were commonly available I don't know.

There were plenty of wild plants which may have been quite widely
cultivated - ground elder, which was introduced by the Romans and later
cultivated by the monastries (and nowadays is almost exclusively found
near places of ancient habitations), lovage, bur chervil, wild celery,
whorled caraway and tuberous caraway, and other umbelliferae, garlic
mustard, ransomes, crow garlic, wild leel, sand leek, the cresses,
mustard, flower scents (rose, etc), tansy, chamomile, liquorice, various
mints, thymes, clary, and lots more that I can't think of just now. At
least some of these would have been used by a good proportion of the
people.

There is very little written about how the common people cooked,
which doesn't help :-( Try and find anything written about how
the poorer people (or even somewhat richer people in poorer areas)
cookec in even 1950, for example, and it's hard. Try for 1850,
and it's diabolical. Try for 1750, and it's almost impossible.
And so on ....

Hmmm. I have recipe books dating from the 1950s, and the 1940s - though
the latter was full of ways of cooking to make the most of your food
ration.

There are good fish recipes in the Compleat Angler, and I could give you
a madiæval recipe for stuffed swan, though this was hardly a recipe of
hoi polloi.

I think that if you are prepared to dig in the right places (Dr.
Johnson?) you might find more than you expect.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

In article ,
Jaques d'Alltrades writes:
| The message
| from "ajr" contains these words:
|
| I'm sure that I must have sampled sorrel at some point, however I
must admit
| that I have no idea, off the top of my head, what it tastes like!
|
| Sour.

Yes, but lemon juice sour, not unripe japonica sour. It doesn't
take the roof of your mouth off.

Fair screws yer face up though. Could that be the root of 'sorrow', I wonder?

| What is its flavour? Nick mentioned earlier that it was good with "fat
| meat", so I assumed that it would have a sage like flavour, but
(presumably)
| if it compliments fish as well it is a lot more 'delicate'.
|
| No, no 'herby' flavour, just a very sharp taste.

I disagree, somewhat. A slight 'herby' flavour, but less than a
lemon. Comparable to lemon juice.

I remember it as having a slight flavour of 'leaf' laced with a not
unpleasant sour bitterness.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

In article ,
Jaques d'Alltrades writes:
| The message
| from "ajr" contains these words:
|
| I'm sure that I must have sampled sorrel at some point, however I
must admit
| that I have no idea, off the top of my head, what it tastes like!
|
| Sour.

Yes, but lemon juice sour, not unripe japonica sour. It doesn't
take the roof of your mouth off.

Fair screws yer face up though. Could that be the root of 'sorrow', I wonder?

| What is its flavour? Nick mentioned earlier that it was good with "fat
| meat", so I assumed that it would have a sage like flavour, but
(presumably)
| if it compliments fish as well it is a lot more 'delicate'.
|
| No, no 'herby' flavour, just a very sharp taste.

I disagree, somewhat. A slight 'herby' flavour, but less than a
lemon. Comparable to lemon juice.

I remember it as having a slight flavour of 'leaf' laced with a not
unpleasant sour bitterness.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

On 6 Apr 2004 07:36:05 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article , lid (Rodger Whitlock) writes:

| IMHO, there's a lot of urban myth-making and falsification of the
| historical record where herbs are concerned. Just take a look at
| a copy of the original Mrs. Beeton and you'll see that most herbs
| are rarely mentioned, if at all.
|
| Perhaps what's happened is that famine and poverty foods have
| been mistaken for everyday foods. Certainly, here in the Pacific
| Northwest the Indians were often reduced to dire straits by late
| winter when the previous summer's stash had been consumed and
| would end up eating, inter alia, the young shoots of thimbleberry
| (Rubus parviflorus) for lack of anything better.

No, I don't think that's it. Mrs Beeton was an upper-middle class
urban writer in the Victorian era, and a lot of the remarks are
referring to what the rural peasantry did before the industrial
revolution. VERY different. Remember that large-scale vegetable
farming and long-distance transport were already well established
by Mrs Beeton's time.

In the 15th century, for example, spices were EXPENSIVE and so the
poorer people used them sparingly. Hence herbs would have been of
more interest for flavouring. Similarly, the foods you would grow
in a vegetable patch if you could not buy any imported foods are
very different from those you grow for shipping into a city and
selling wholesale.

There is very little written about how the common people cooked,
which doesn't help :-( Try and find anything written about how
the poorer people (or even somewhat richer people in poorer areas)
cookec in even 1950, for example, and it's hard. Try for 1850,
and it's diabolical. Try for 1750, and it's almost impossible.
And so on ....

I suspect you might find the nitty-gritty on these matters in
travelogues written by visitors from *other* countries. "You
wouldn't believe what the English peasantry eats!" iow.

At any rate, if I can be allowed to slightly reformulate my
hypothesis, evidence is very scanty and many modern books on the
subject of Herbes in Ye Olden Dayes may contain more imagination
than fact.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:22:53 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

I don't think many, if any of the recipes in 'Mrs. Beeton' were written
by her. Her husband was a magazine publisher, and he invited
contributions, many - possibly all - he published untested under his
wife's name.

It is surmised that there was a sort-of competition amongst some
contributors to see who could get the most outrageous recipe published.
Indeed, some of the recipes in the boot are reported not to work at all.

I have a facsimile of the original edition and the recipes in it
all seem to be fairly straightforward, if boring. Do you know of
a specific example of such an unworkable recipe in Mrs. Beeton?

Hmmm. I have recipe books dating from the 1950s, and the 1940s - though
the latter was full of ways of cooking to make the most of your food
ration.

The "Penguin Cookery Book" by Bee Nilson (1952) has to take the
cake. Written during post-WWII austerity, it tells you how to
make mock-cream from milk and margarine. They even had a device
for the purpose; is there no end to British ingenuity?

At the other extreme, but only slightly later, is the Constance
Spry Cookery Book (1956?), which recapitulates the halcyon days
before WWII, complete with jugged hare and all the trimmings.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

In article ,
Jaques d'Alltrades writes:
|
| There is very little written about how the common people cooked,
| which doesn't help :-( Try and find anything written about how
| the poorer people (or even somewhat richer people in poorer areas)
| cookec in even 1950, for example, and it's hard. Try for 1850,
| and it's diabolical. Try for 1750, and it's almost impossible.
| And so on ....
|
| Hmmm. I have recipe books dating from the 1950s, and the 1940s - though
| the latter was full of ways of cooking to make the most of your food
| ration.
|
| There are good fish recipes in the Compleat Angler, and I could give you
| a madiæval recipe for stuffed swan, though this was hardly a recipe of
| hoi polloi.
|
| I think that if you are prepared to dig in the right places (Dr.
| Johnson?) you might find more than you expect.

In article ,
lid (Rodger Whitlock) writes:
|
| I suspect you might find the nitty-gritty on these matters in
| travelogues written by visitors from *other* countries. "You
| wouldn't believe what the English peasantry eats!" iow.

No, what I wrote is correct. As both of your examples show, there
is a certain amount on what the richer people ate, and what the
peasantry ate for feasting, as well as some rude remarks (verging
on propaganda) about the common diet. But there is effectively
damn-all on either the details of the latter or sufficiently
unbiassed evidence to just what it was really like.

As a modern example, I know some of those 1940s and 1950s cookbooks,
and none of them include the food that was routinely eaten in areas
that I know, and communication with other people indicates that it
was generally true. Most of them were written as attempts to get
the peasantry to improve its diet, after all!

| At any rate, if I can be allowed to slightly reformulate my
| hypothesis, evidence is very scanty and many modern books on the
| subject of Herbes in Ye Olden Dayes may contain more imagination
| than fact.

That is unquestionably so. There is much better evidence on their
use in medicine than cooking.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
lid (Rodger Whitlock) writes:
|
| The "Penguin Cookery Book" by Bee Nilson (1952) has to take the
| cake. Written during post-WWII austerity, it tells you how to
| make mock-cream from milk and margarine. They even had a device
| for the purpose; is there no end to British ingenuity?

I have seen that device, but with instructions to use unsalted
butter if you can get it. It was quite widely bought, but rarely
used, largely because it didn't work very well. And, made with
the least salted butter and margarine generally available, it
tasted pretty repulsive - yes, I have tried it.

| At the other extreme, but only slightly later, is the Constance
| Spry Cookery Book (1956?), which recapitulates the halcyon days
| before WWII, complete with jugged hare and all the trimmings.

Hare was never in short supply in the relevant areas, though some
of the trimmings (e.g. red wine) were!

1956 marked the formal end of rationing, anyway.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

No, what I wrote is correct. As both of your examples show, there
is a certain amount on what the richer people ate, and what the
peasantry ate for feasting, as well as some rude remarks (verging
on propaganda) about the common diet. But there is effectively
damn-all on either the details of the latter or sufficiently
unbiassed evidence to just what it was really like.

As a modern example, I know some of those 1940s and 1950s cookbooks,
and none of them include the food that was routinely eaten in areas
that I know, and communication with other people indicates that it
was generally true. Most of them were written as attempts to get
the peasantry to improve its diet, after all!

I have begun a repy to this, citing Elizabeth Craig (1948) and when the
right shaped tuit appears, will look for other old cookbooks I have
somewhere.

I can assure you that some of the recipes are very basic indeed!

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from lid (Rodger Whitlock) contains these words:
On Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:22:53 +0100, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

I don't think many, if any of the recipes in 'Mrs. Beeton' were written
by her. Her husband was a magazine publisher, and he invited
contributions, many - possibly all - he published untested under his
wife's name.

It is surmised that there was a sort-of competition amongst some
contributors to see who could get the most outrageous recipe published.
Indeed, some of the recipes in the boot are reported not to work at all.

I have a facsimile of the original edition and the recipes in it
all seem to be fairly straightforward, if boring. Do you know of
a specific example of such an unworkable recipe in Mrs. Beeton?

Not personally. There was a very instructive programme on Rajo4 a while
back, and that gave some examples. Those recipes have (I understand)
been edited out for a long time.

I doubt if it made it to the BBC website as it was a while back. FLVO while.

Hmmm. I have recipe books dating from the 1950s, and the 1940s - though
the latter was full of ways of cooking to make the most of your food
ration.

The "Penguin Cookery Book" by Bee Nilson (1952) has to take the
cake. Written during post-WWII austerity, it tells you how to
make mock-cream from milk and margarine. They even had a device
for the purpose; is there no end to British ingenuity?

You can still get it - the Bel cream-maker. Makes a passable imitation
of fresh cream using unsalted butter and goldtop milk. Handy for vegans
too, assuming it will work with their margarine and soy or rice milk....

At the other extreme, but only slightly later, is the Constance
Spry Cookery Book (1956?), which recapitulates the halcyon days
before WWII, complete with jugged hare and all the trimmings.

Well, I can usually acquire a hare if I want one, but I don't need a
recipe to make jugged hare!

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

In article ,
Jaques d'Alltrades writes:
| The message
| from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
|
| No, what I wrote is correct. As both of your examples show, there
| is a certain amount on what the richer people ate, and what the
| peasantry ate for feasting, as well as some rude remarks (verging
| on propaganda) about the common diet. But there is effectively
| damn-all on either the details of the latter or sufficiently
| unbiassed evidence to just what it was really like.
|
| As a modern example, I know some of those 1940s and 1950s cookbooks,
| and none of them include the food that was routinely eaten in areas
| that I know, and communication with other people indicates that it
| was generally true. Most of them were written as attempts to get
| the peasantry to improve its diet, after all!
|
| I have begun a repy to this, citing Elizabeth Craig (1948) and when the
| right shaped tuit appears, will look for other old cookbooks I have
| somewhere.
|
| I can assure you that some of the recipes are very basic indeed!

Oh, I know that - I have seen and even used such books - but I
suggest that you reread my posting. Most such books were not
written as a DESCRIPTION of what the peasantry ate, but as EXAMPLES
for the peasantry. And, because many authors had a very low view
of the intelligence of said peasantry, the recipes were often kept
very simple and even dumbed down. In other cases, the authors were
so ignorant that they produced recipes that used ingredients that
were unavailable.

There are, of course, exceptions - but here is what I said:

Try and find anything written about how the poorer
people (or even somewhat richer people in poorer areas)
cooked in even 1950, for example, and it's hard.

I didn't say that such descriptions didn't exist, whereas I would
say the same for any date before (say) 1750.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 7 Apr 2004 07:41:40 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

As a modern example, I know some of those 1940s and 1950s cookbooks,
and none of them include the food that was routinely eaten in areas
that I know, and communication with other people indicates that it
was generally true. Most of them were written as attempts to get
the peasantry to improve its diet, after all!

The same kind of thing happens on this side of the pond too. "The
White Trash Cookbook" purports to document the food of poor
southerners; a school of cooking legendary for any number of
gastronomic sins.

In reality, while a fair fraction of the recipes are of that
nature[1], a number are for dishes that my own mother (a born and
bred South Carolinian) used to make. And those aren't bad! Yet
those very dishes are totally unrepresented in the standard
American cookbooks, Joy of Cooking, Fannie Farmer, etc.

On the other hand, the annual recipe compilations from "Southern
Living" magazine include some dishes that make ones eyebrows and
gorge both rise. There's a William Bolcom song "Lime-jello
Marshmallow Cottage-cheese Surprise" that captures something of
this ambience.

Going back to the topic at hand, I have always been suspicious of
books that blithely urge the reader to add chopped rue leaves to
their salads -- which more than one "herb" book does.


[1] Hypothetical example: take a can of this, a can of that, a
bag of chow mein noodles, six dill pickles chopped fine, and a
jar of peanut butter, mix them together and pour a can of
Campbell's condensed cream of mushroom soup over it all, bake and
serve.

--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

In article , Rodger Whitlock
writes

The "Penguin Cookery Book" by Bee Nilson (1952) has to take the
cake.

But surely it's just one of many? I have an 'Everything Within' from the
30's, with several recipes for fruit cake of varying austerity, 'halibut
with mock mayonnaise' (milk with a bit of egg and flavoured with
vinegar), boiled calf's head, skirt and cow heel, 'poverty goose'
(onions and potatoes with a bit of liver layered together to mimic a
goose with crispy skin), vegetable marrow jam.

I'm not saying this is reflecting what people actually ate (my mother,
from a far from well off country family, would not touch any offal other
than liver and kidney), but the Penguin is just one of many preaching
ways to cook and eat cheap ingredients and to mimic more expensive
things.


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

| I can assure you that some of the recipes are very basic indeed!

Oh, I know that - I have seen and even used such books - but I
suggest that you reread my posting. Most such books were not
written as a DESCRIPTION of what the peasantry ate, but as EXAMPLES
for the peasantry. And, because many authors had a very low view
of the intelligence of said peasantry, the recipes were often kept
very simple and even dumbed down. In other cases, the authors were
so ignorant that they produced recipes that used ingredients that
were unavailable.

There are, of course, exceptions - but here is what I said:

Try and find anything written about how the poorer
people (or even somewhat richer people in poorer areas)
cooked in even 1950, for example, and it's hard.

I presume that a lot of the poorer people used thes cookery books.
Elizabeth Craig certainly didn't talk down to 'her public', and on a
quick glance through I have found two recipes which are still commonly
used in the Highlands, and no doubt I shall find more.

(Though I don't expect to find one Lewis recipe: "Boil some water and
drop salt herrings into it, then boil until herrings resemble salt, fish
leather.) Staying with an old couple on the Isle of Lewis, I soaked the
salt herrings in two changes of water and then fried them in oatmeal.

Disapprobation. Why? Because they weren't 'sgadan saillte'. If they
wanted fresh herring, they would use fresh herring.

I didn't say that such descriptions didn't exist, whereas I would
say the same for any date before (say) 1750.

Well, I would guess that the information is there somewhere, but no-one
has thought it worth searching for, collecting, collating and
publishing.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/