In article ,
Janet Baraclough.. writes:
| The message
| from lid (Rodger Whitlock) contains these words:
|
| [1] "Cute" as in squealingly announced "O he's s-o-o-o-o
| c-u-t-e!" by dim & clueless members of the female sex.
| Fortunately, no female urgler falls into that category.
|
| Even more fortunately, no male urgler falls into the category of "cute".

I am SO hurt!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 15 Apr 2004 07:53:26 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

~
~In article ,
(jane) writes:
~|
~| When I was in California, just north of SF, I stayed in various youth
~| hostels while doing a tour round. All had dire warnings of what would
~| happen if a coon got into your car. Trashing it seems to be the
~| general result, and my idea of coons as genial furry things went out
~| of the window. Never leave your car unattended with a window open or
~| else!
~
~Hell, the Californians are scared of bobcats! Ignore 90% of their
~phobias.

:-) I didn't ignore the one that said don't leave food in the car in
Yosemite though... bears *will* open them like a foodcan if you do!

~| Personally, if real coons got into our ecosystem as against this
~| coati, I'd hope that someone would encourage folk with traps or
~| shotguns to go and get them before they established, as they really
~| would be a menace to our native wildlife, much as the released mink
~| have been to riverside mammals. Folk would never be able to use black
~| sacks for rubbish (they'd shred them), leave things open and what
~| about dog or cat flaps?
~
~I wouldn't. Shotguns loaded with birdshot are cruel against animals
~that size.
~
Fair enough - I don't know the ins and outs of shot or shotguns - it's
just the common expression I picked to use and I wouldn't want to
unnecessarily hurt some unwittingly translocated creature anyway.
Perhaps I should have said professional vermin controllers.

(I admit at this point I can't even bring myself to kill pigeons,
though I cheerfully and totally inaccurately say I could wring their
necks over my brassicas!)

~And they couldn't get through catflaps.
Well that's something to be grateful for (not that I have a catflap).


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

In article ,
(jane) writes:
| ~
| ~Hell, the Californians are scared of bobcats! Ignore 90% of their
| ~phobias.
|
| :-) I didn't ignore the one that said don't leave food in the car in
| Yosemite though... bears *will* open them like a foodcan if you do!

Hmm. A grizzly bear's claws are strong, but I rather doubt that
they would claw through even the flimsy steel that most cars are
made of. When I was there (25 years ago), the warning was about
softtops; I can believe that they have learnt to break windows,
but have serious difficulty in believing that they tear open car
boots.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 15 Apr 2004 10:21:55 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

~
~In article ,
(jane) writes:
~| ~
~| ~Hell, the Californians are scared of bobcats! Ignore 90% of their
~| ~phobias.
~|
~| :-) I didn't ignore the one that said don't leave food in the car in
~| Yosemite though... bears *will* open them like a foodcan if you do!
~
~Hmm. A grizzly bear's claws are strong, but I rather doubt that
~they would claw through even the flimsy steel that most cars are
~made of. When I was there (25 years ago), the warning was about
~softtops; I can believe that they have learnt to break windows,
~but have serious difficulty in believing that they tear open car
~boots.
~
http://www.nps.gov/yose/bears.htm

I suspect most damage is indeed done by claws on the bodywork - makes
keying look tame, though they will break windows. I have seen one
photo of a car torn to bits, but it was while I was out there in '94
(They put them up in the shop to stop folk leaving food out)

http://www.epinions.com/park-review-...398DEC15-prod1
is another account of this.

Having said that, we stayed in a tent cabin, put all food into the
bear locker and never heard a peep out of any wildlife all night
(thank goodness).

And it's rarely the poor bears' faults either - there are reports of
people putting food deliberately on tables to get photographs, then
wondering why the bear gets grumpy when it gets cornered by the
tourists. The bear, not the tourists, can wind up shot.

Ho hum. Least we aren't in danger of getting *those* in our gardens!


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

In article ,
(jane) writes:
|
| ~| ~Hell, the Californians are scared of bobcats! Ignore 90% of their
| ~| ~phobias.
| ~|
| ~| :-) I didn't ignore the one that said don't leave food in the car in
| ~| Yosemite though... bears *will* open them like a foodcan if you do!
| ~
| ~Hmm. A grizzly bear's claws are strong, but I rather doubt that
| ~they would claw through even the flimsy steel that most cars are
| ~made of. When I was there (25 years ago), the warning was about
| ~softtops; I can believe that they have learnt to break windows,
| ~but have serious difficulty in believing that they tear open car
| ~boots.
|
| I suspect most damage is indeed done by claws on the bodywork - makes
| keying look tame, though they will break windows. I have seen one
| photo of a car torn to bits, but it was while I was out there in '94
| (They put them up in the shop to stop folk leaving food out)

Torn to bits? That is even less plausible. Sorry. Elephants do
that, but not bears.

Both pages support my statement - the pictures were all of broken
windows etc., and so were the textual references. The reference to
a boot was only that bears could smell food inside it. Yes, I know
that the second page said "Picture a large can that's been opened
using a knife and a crowbar", but that is hyperbole.

| Ho hum. Least we aren't in danger of getting *those* in our gardens!

It's rather sad, really. Take a random Web page:

http://www.nps.gov/yose/news/1998/traffic.htm

August 19, 1998. ... There have been 12 major accidents, including
one fatal crash, on the Tioga Pass Road since it opened on July 1.

The fuss made about bears is at least ten times that made about
motor vehicles, and they are at least ten times less dangerous.
And that is in Yosemite!

People in the USA and UK are hysterical about the dangers caused
by wild animals.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , lid (Rodger Whitlock) writes:
| On 13 Apr 2004 07:37:59 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:
|
| I don't know how well raccoons (or coatis, for that matter) will be
| able to take the winters. Like many plants, some mammals which are
| adapted to cold aren't very good at taking long, dark, wet winters.
| They probably would survive in some areas, but it isn't certain.
| I don't know how they handle winters in north America.
|
| The raccoon is native to a very wide swathe of North America and
| handles long, dark, wet winters with complete aplomb. They
| actually do better in an urban environment than out in the
| country.

Are they widespread in the coastal strip stretching from Vancouver
to Anchorage, because that is the only patch that HAS anything like
long, dark, WET winters? The point is that many hibernation and
semi-hibernation techniques don't work in the UK, because of the
unreliable cold in the winter.
Well, they are common in the Vancouver area and a few miles north of
there. Can't say I've ventured much further up the coast though.

The message
from (jane) contains these words:

Folk would never be able to use black
sacks for rubbish (they'd shred them),

No change there then. Urban and rural dwellers often can't leave their
rubbish out in black sacks for collection, because foxes or dogs shred
them. Where I live now, seagulls do the same.

and what
about dog or cat flaps?

I know someone who found a family of fox cubs playing in her kitchen
in Rickmansworth (not the wilds). They had come in through the cat flap,
eaten the cat food, and their cat hosts were sitting on the worktop
watching.

Janet.

In article ,
Steve Haigh writes:
|
| Well, they are common in the Vancouver area and a few miles north of
| there. Can't say I've ventured much further up the coast though.

I get the impression that few people have :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 15 Apr 2004 12:09:21 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

~
~In article ,
(jane) writes:
~|
~| ~| ~Hell, the Californians are scared of bobcats! Ignore 90% of their
~| ~| ~phobias.
~| ~|
~| ~| :-) I didn't ignore the one that said don't leave food in the car in
~| ~| Yosemite though... bears *will* open them like a foodcan if you do!
~| ~
~| ~Hmm. A grizzly bear's claws are strong, but I rather doubt that
~| ~they would claw through even the flimsy steel that most cars are
~| ~made of. When I was there (25 years ago), the warning was about
~| ~softtops; I can believe that they have learnt to break windows,
~| ~but have serious difficulty in believing that they tear open car
~| ~boots.
~|
~| I suspect most damage is indeed done by claws on the bodywork - makes
~| keying look tame, though they will break windows. I have seen one
~| photo of a car torn to bits, but it was while I was out there in '94
~| (They put them up in the shop to stop folk leaving food out)
~
~Torn to bits? That is even less plausible. Sorry. Elephants do
~that, but not bears.

Then someone must have 'helped' it.

~Both pages support my statement - the pictures were all of broken
~windows etc., and so were the textual references. The reference to
~a boot was only that bears could smell food inside it. Yes, I know
~that the second page said "Picture a large can that's been opened
~using a knife and a crowbar", but that is hyperbole.

Maybe the rangers make the damage worse than it actually is, to
deliberately scare people. Either way, I did see a photo of severe
damage attributed to bears. Maybe the reviewer did too. Maybe it was a
scare-tactics fake, but I could not say either way, just report on
what I saw.

~| Ho hum. Least we aren't in danger of getting *those* in our gardens!
~
~It's rather sad, really. Take a random Web page:
~
~http://www.nps.gov/yose/news/1998/traffic.htm
~
~August 19, 1998. ... There have been 12 major accidents, including
~one fatal crash, on the Tioga Pass Road since it opened on July 1.
~
~The fuss made about bears is at least ten times that made about
~motor vehicles, and they are at least ten times less dangerous.
~And that is in Yosemite!

Not going to argue there. I think the fuss is to show people that what
*they* do could get an innocent bear killed in extremis, and not just
another human being.
When we learn to drive, how many of us are told that what we are doing
is more of a killer than any gun?

~People in the USA and UK are hysterical about the dangers caused
~by wild animals.

Man is still the wildest animal.


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

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In article ,
(jane) writes:
|
| Maybe the rangers make the damage worse than it actually is, to
| deliberately scare people. Either way, I did see a photo of severe
| damage attributed to bears. Maybe the reviewer did too. Maybe it was a
| scare-tactics fake, but I could not say either way, just report on
| what I saw.

I can easily believe severe damage - it is the idea of a steel
shell being ripped open, or steel being torn to bits, that I
find hard to swallow. Mere bending of steel and demolition of
the glass and interior may look impressive but isn't the same.

I have torn a bumper off a car with my bear, oops, bare hands
myself - modern cars really are tinny - but that was pulling
a bolt through a slightly enlarged and weakened hole. Tearing
even the thin steel sheet used for cars into shreds would be
seriously pushing it for a bear's claws.

So what I think the rangers did was present the worst real
image, and slightly enhance the description. I.e. they would
have been considerably more truthful than our Trusted Leaders.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:


In article ,
Janet Baraclough.. writes:
| The message
| from lid (Rodger Whitlock) contains
these words:
|
| [1] "Cute" as in squealingly announced "O he's s-o-o-o-o
| c-u-t-e!" by dim & clueless members of the female sex.
| Fortunately, no female urgler falls into that category.
|
| Even more fortunately, no male urgler falls into the category of
"cute".

I am SO hurt!

If only you didn't chew lemons, prance barefoot on thorns and rip the
bumper off your car with your bare hands, you might have scraped in.

Janet.

On 15 Apr 2004 07:53:26 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

...they couldn't get through catflaps.

Ah, I hate to say this, but young ones *can* get in via a cat
flap. Several years ago, I had one invade, entering via the flap
in the basement door, go upstairs to the kitchen, gorge on cat
chow, muddy the water bowl, and depart without damaging anything.

A live trap in the basement baited with stinky canned cat food
caught him making a return visit a day or two later. He was
deported several miles away, and was one very unhappy raccoon
when released after his ride in the trunk of the car.

BTW, if any urgler finds themselves having to trap raccoons, be
extremely careful. They have long, sharp claws and can (and will)
do a lot of damage. Make sure your trap has a sheet metal guard
around the handle so they cannot reach you, and wear heavy
leather gloves just in case.

A friend-of-a-friend got clawed in the hand by a raccoon,
infection rapidly set in, and it was a year before his hand fully
recovered.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

On 15 Apr 2004 07:53:26 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

...they couldn't get through catflaps.

Ah, I hate to say this, but young ones *can* get in via a cat
flap. Several years ago, I had one invade, entering via the flap
in the basement door, go upstairs to the kitchen, gorge on cat
chow, muddy the water bowl, and depart without damaging anything.

A live trap in the basement baited with stinky canned cat food
caught him making a return visit a day or two later. He was
deported several miles away, and was one very unhappy raccoon
when released after his ride in the trunk of the car.

BTW, if any urgler finds themselves having to trap raccoons, be
extremely careful. They have long, sharp claws and can (and will)
do a lot of damage. Make sure your trap has a sheet metal guard
around the handle so they cannot reach you, and wear heavy
leather gloves just in case.

A friend-of-a-friend got clawed in the hand by a raccoon,
infection rapidly set in, and it was a year before his hand fully
recovered.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

On 15 Apr 2004 07:53:26 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

...they couldn't get through catflaps.

Ah, I hate to say this, but young ones *can* get in via a cat
flap. Several years ago, I had one invade, entering via the flap
in the basement door, go upstairs to the kitchen, gorge on cat
chow, muddy the water bowl, and depart without damaging anything.

A live trap in the basement baited with stinky canned cat food
caught him making a return visit a day or two later. He was
deported several miles away, and was one very unhappy raccoon
when released after his ride in the trunk of the car.

BTW, if any urgler finds themselves having to trap raccoons, be
extremely careful. They have long, sharp claws and can (and will)
do a lot of damage. Make sure your trap has a sheet metal guard
around the handle so they cannot reach you, and wear heavy
leather gloves just in case.

A friend-of-a-friend got clawed in the hand by a raccoon,
infection rapidly set in, and it was a year before his hand fully
recovered.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:42:02 +0000 (UTC), jane wrote:

[bears in Yosemite]

Ho hum. Least we aren't in danger of getting *those* in our gardens!

I forgot to mention that in addition to sending Nick a container
full of raccoons, I'm running a lottery (urglers only), the lucky
winner of which gets a container full of bears.

Guard your berries, urglers!


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]