So how about this news story? (seen on another Ng).....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/3536063.stm

Perhaps some of us will soon need to know what to do about them!

--
Regards
Bob

Use a useful Screen Saver...
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
and find intelligent life amongst the stars

On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:58:59 +0100, Bob Hobden wrote:

So how about this news story? (seen on another Ng).....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/3536063.stm

Perhaps some of us will soon need to know what to do about them!

Wild raccoons in Britain?

You think grey squirrels were a menace? Just wait.

--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, BC, Canada
"Raccoon City"

In article ,
"Bob Hobden" writes:
| "Rodger wrote in message after me...
| :
| So how about this news story? (seen on another Ng).....
|
| http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/3536063.stm
|
| Perhaps some of us will soon need to know what to do about them!
|
| Wild raccoons in Britain?
|
| You think grey squirrels were a menace? Just wait.
|
| Yes, I've already read about the problems in Germany.
| http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_885832.html
|
| http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm...ld.animaltales
|
| worrying isn't it.

Not overwhelmingly. There are at most two species of mammal that
have lived in the UK for more than 10,000 years - fox and mountain
(blue) hare. All others have introduced themselves or been
introduced.

I don't know how well raccoons (or coatis, for that matter) will be
able to take the winters. Like many plants, some mammals which are
adapted to cold aren't very good at taking long, dark, wet winters.
They probably would survive in some areas, but it isn't certain.
I don't know how they handle winters in north America.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message |
Not overwhelmingly. There are at most two species of mammal that
have lived in the UK for more than 10,000 years - fox and mountain
(blue) hare. All others have introduced themselves or been
introduced.

I don't know how well raccoons (or coatis, for that matter) will be
able to take the winters. Like many plants, some mammals which are
adapted to cold aren't very good at taking long, dark, wet winters.
They probably would survive in some areas, but it isn't certain.
I don't know how they handle winters in north America.

They survive up to southern Canada in the same way that Grey Squirrels do,
they store fat for the winter and sleep out the really bad days but get
active again in any mild spell.
They certainly seem to have a big problem with them in some parts of
Germany, introduced in the 1930s, and now they are moving into Austria.

--
Regards
Bob

Use a useful Screen Saver...
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
and find intelligent life amongst the stars

On 13 Apr 2004 07:37:59 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

I don't know how well raccoons (or coatis, for that matter) will be
able to take the winters. Like many plants, some mammals which are
adapted to cold aren't very good at taking long, dark, wet winters.
They probably would survive in some areas, but it isn't certain.
I don't know how they handle winters in north America.

The raccoon is native to a very wide swathe of North America and
handles long, dark, wet winters with complete aplomb. They
actually do better in an urban environment than out in the
country.

Main disadvantages of raccoons: they can carry rabies; they will
eat all the cherries off your tree; they will eat all your corn
before it's quite ripe (not that corn is a common crop in the
UK); they can destroy a cat with ease, and even dogs are at risk.

However, I've only once had a cat injured by a coon; they take a
live-and-let-live attitude most of the time.

You'll know if you have them by the droppings they leave at the
base of trees. Evidently, they defecate as they climb up the
trunk.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

In article , lid (Rodger Whitlock) writes:
| On 13 Apr 2004 07:37:59 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:
|
| I don't know how well raccoons (or coatis, for that matter) will be
| able to take the winters. Like many plants, some mammals which are
| adapted to cold aren't very good at taking long, dark, wet winters.
| They probably would survive in some areas, but it isn't certain.
| I don't know how they handle winters in north America.
|
| The raccoon is native to a very wide swathe of North America and
| handles long, dark, wet winters with complete aplomb. They
| actually do better in an urban environment than out in the
| country.

Are they widespread in the coastal strip stretching from Vancouver
to Anchorage, because that is the only patch that HAS anything like
long, dark, WET winters? The point is that many hibernation and
semi-hibernation techniques don't work in the UK, because of the
unreliable cold in the winter.

They probably could naturalise here, but it isn't certain. Some
cold-winter animals have trouble.

| Main disadvantages of raccoons: they can carry rabies; they will
| eat all the cherries off your tree; they will eat all your corn
| before it's quite ripe (not that corn is a common crop in the
| UK); they can destroy a cat with ease, and even dogs are at risk.

Not all that different from a fox, in most of those respects.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 14 Apr 2004 07:25:52 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) said:

]
] In article , lid (Rodger Whitlock) writes:
] | On 13 Apr 2004 07:37:59 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:
] |
] | I don't know how well raccoons (or coatis, for that matter) will be
] | able to take the winters. Like many plants, some mammals which are
] | adapted to cold aren't very good at taking long, dark, wet winters.
] | They probably would survive in some areas, but it isn't certain.
] | I don't know how they handle winters in north America.
] |
] | The raccoon is native to a very wide swathe of North America and
] | handles long, dark, wet winters with complete aplomb. They
] | actually do better in an urban environment than out in the
] | country.
]
] Are they widespread in the coastal strip stretching from Vancouver
] to Anchorage, because that is the only patch that HAS anything like
] long, dark, WET winters? The point is that many hibernation and
] semi-hibernation techniques don't work in the UK, because of the
] unreliable cold in the winter.
]
] They probably could naturalise here, but it isn't certain. Some
] cold-winter animals have trouble.
]

Don't think they need the cold; we had them in San Francisco, where
is certainly never freezes (at least not in the 4 years I lived there). Lots of
sub-tropical vegetation. Also in Boston, where it gets very chilly indeed,
so they seem quite adaptable. In SF they were active all winter long,
dratted things.

-E
--
Emery Davis
You can reply to
by removing the well known companies

In article ,
Emery Davis writes:
|
| Don't think they need the cold; we had them in San Francisco, where
| is certainly never freezes (at least not in the 4 years I lived there). Lots of
| sub-tropical vegetation. Also in Boston, where it gets very chilly indeed,
| so they seem quite adaptable. In SF they were active all winter long,
| dratted things.

The problem in the UK is about four months of dark, wet conditions,
wandering around freezing point. The darkness means that plants
don't grow much, and so there is little food, the erratic
temperatures block hibernation, and the wetness means that it is
difficult to keep warm. San Francisco is half-way to the tropics,
starting from the UK.

The only place in north America with a comparable climate is the
coastal strip between Vancouver and Anchorage.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 14 Apr 2004 09:22:29 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

The problem in the UK is about four months of dark, wet conditions,
wandering around freezing point. The darkness means that plants
don't grow much, and so there is little food, the erratic
temperatures block hibernation, and the wetness means that it is
difficult to keep warm. San Francisco is half-way to the tropics,
starting from the UK.

The only place in north America with a comparable climate is the
coastal strip between Vancouver and Anchorage.

Actually, that description applies pretty well to the Pacific
coast right down into California. To steer this thread back
on-topic, an anecdote:

In 1987, I bought a small specimen of Chaenomeles 'Contorta' at
the famous Western Hills Nursery, in Occidental, California.
(Maps, everyone!) Two years later I was there again and asked how
their parent plant was doing. Answer, not well, winters too wet!

Here in Victoria, we're in something of a rain shadow from the
Sooke Hills, so we're evidently rather drier than Occidental.
That little sprig is now a flourishing shrub, one of the
highlights of my late winter gardcen.

It was very interesting, driving to Occidental. As you wound
along the country lanes[1] leading to the nursery, you suddenly
passed from the dry grassy hillsides we associate with California
into a zone of vegetation just like we have here on Vancouver
Island: salal, Douglas fir, etc. It was like a line drawn on a
map: a very sharp and sudden change.

So I think, Nick, that in real life, you'll find that the area
immediately along the coast is pretty awful in winter right down
into California. Remember that most of the way, there's a range
of hills or mountains just inland, and that tends to increase
precipitation.

At any rate, the raccoon is an extremely adaptable animal and I'm
sure it'll soon be naturalized all across Britain.

[1] "Country lanes" -- that area west of Santa Rosa to the coast
has been settled a long time and is a maze of little roads that
wander in no particular direction, and constitute a maze you need
a good map to navigate successfully. I suspect Britons would feel
right at home in this particular.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

On 14 Apr 2004 07:25:52 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

Are they widespread in the coastal strip stretching from Vancouver
to Anchorage, because that is the only patch that HAS anything like
long, dark, WET winters? The point is that many hibernation and
semi-hibernation techniques don't work in the UK, because of the
unreliable cold in the winter.

According to the distribution map in Roger Caras's "North
American Mammals", raccoons only get up the coast some ways north
of Vancouver, and then nada. Not in Alaska, evidently.

But here in Victoria, we have oodles, and our winters are long,
wet, dark, and definitely have unreliable cold -- as you so well
phrase it. Shall I ship you a container of raccoons?

They probably could naturalise here, but it isn't certain. Some
cold-winter animals have trouble.

If life in the countryside isn't congenial, they'll simply move
into the cities.

| Main disadvantages of raccoons: they can carry rabies; they will
| eat all the cherries off your tree; they will eat all your corn
| before it's quite ripe (not that corn is a common crop in the
| UK); they can destroy a cat with ease, and even dogs are at risk.

Not all that different from a fox, in most of those respects.

Raccoons present one additional problem: they look cute[1] with
their black masks. You can make a pet out of one if you start
when it's young, but when it grows, it's not entirely
trustworthy.

[1] "Cute" as in squealingly announced "O he's s-o-o-o-o
c-u-t-e!" by dim & clueless members of the female sex.
Fortunately, no female urgler falls into that category.

--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

In article ,
Rodger Whitlock wrote:
On 14 Apr 2004 09:22:29 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

The problem in the UK is about four months of dark, wet conditions,
wandering around freezing point. The darkness means that plants
don't grow much, and so there is little food, the erratic
temperatures block hibernation, and the wetness means that it is
difficult to keep warm. San Francisco is half-way to the tropics,
starting from the UK.

The only place in north America with a comparable climate is the
coastal strip between Vancouver and Anchorage.

Actually, that description applies pretty well to the Pacific
coast right down into California.

Well, relatively. It isn't as dark. Our southernmost point is
comparable to Vancouver, and we stretch north. The section below
Vancouver corresponds more to Brittany and the bay of Biscay. Yes,
I know that there is a southerly current, so the Pacific coast of
the USA is colder than the comparable latitude in Europe.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Rodger Whitlock wrote:
On 14 Apr 2004 07:25:52 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:

Are they widespread in the coastal strip stretching from Vancouver
to Anchorage, because that is the only patch that HAS anything like
long, dark, WET winters? The point is that many hibernation and
semi-hibernation techniques don't work in the UK, because of the
unreliable cold in the winter.

According to the distribution map in Roger Caras's "North
American Mammals", raccoons only get up the coast some ways north
of Vancouver, and then nada. Not in Alaska, evidently.

They shouldn't have much trouble in southern England, then, but
might find Scotland a bit harsh.

But here in Victoria, we have oodles, and our winters are long,
wet, dark, and definitely have unreliable cold -- as you so well
phrase it. Shall I ship you a container of raccoons?

Well, as you know, I really want a few cougar and some wolves :-)

They probably could naturalise here, but it isn't certain. Some
cold-winter animals have trouble.

If life in the countryside isn't congenial, they'll simply move
into the cities.

Seems reasonable to me. That lot need some stirring up.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick wrote in message after
Rodger wrote:

They shouldn't have much trouble in southern England, then, but
might find Scotland a bit harsh.

I happen to live in Southern England, thank's Nick. Ringed Necked Parakeets
by the hundred I can cope with but Raccoons, I'm not so sure.
I suppose it's all to do with our wonderful multi-cultural society, why
leave the animals out.

Well, as you know, I really want a few cougar and some wolves :-)

Not heard of any Wolves yet but the Cougars may well be here already, and
some Eurpoean Linx and........what was that on the CCTV at the Swan
Sanctuary?


If life in the countryside isn't congenial, they'll simply move
into the cities.

Seems reasonable to me. That lot need some stirring up.


The foxes do OK in cities until an outbreak of disease so Raccoons will too,
they have in Germany.

--
Regards
Bob

Use a useful Screen Saver...
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
and find intelligent life amongst the stars

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 20:11:32 GMT, lid
(Rodger Whitlock) wrote:

~On 14 Apr 2004 07:25:52 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:
~
~ Are they widespread in the coastal strip stretching from Vancouver
~ to Anchorage, because that is the only patch that HAS anything like
~ long, dark, WET winters? The point is that many hibernation and
~ semi-hibernation techniques don't work in the UK, because of the
~ unreliable cold in the winter.
~
~According to the distribution map in Roger Caras's "North
~American Mammals", raccoons only get up the coast some ways north
~of Vancouver, and then nada. Not in Alaska, evidently.
~
~But here in Victoria, we have oodles, and our winters are long,
~wet, dark, and definitely have unreliable cold -- as you so well
~phrase it. Shall I ship you a container of raccoons?
~
~ They probably could naturalise here, but it isn't certain. Some
~ cold-winter animals have trouble.
~
~If life in the countryside isn't congenial, they'll simply move
~into the cities.
~
~ | Main disadvantages of raccoons: they can carry rabies; they will
~ | eat all the cherries off your tree; they will eat all your corn
~ | before it's quite ripe (not that corn is a common crop in the
~ | UK); they can destroy a cat with ease, and even dogs are at risk.
~
~ Not all that different from a fox, in most of those respects.
~
~Raccoons present one additional problem: they look cute[1] with
~their black masks. You can make a pet out of one if you start
~when it's young, but when it grows, it's not entirely
~trustworthy.

When I was in California, just north of SF, I stayed in various youth
hostels while doing a tour round. All had dire warnings of what would
happen if a coon got into your car. Trashing it seems to be the
general result, and my idea of coons as genial furry things went out
of the window. Never leave your car unattended with a window open or
else!

Personally, if real coons got into our ecosystem as against this
coati, I'd hope that someone would encourage folk with traps or
shotguns to go and get them before they established, as they really
would be a menace to our native wildlife, much as the released mink
have been to riverside mammals. Folk would never be able to use black
sacks for rubbish (they'd shred them), leave things open and what
about dog or cat flaps?

~
~[1] "Cute" as in squealingly announced "O he's s-o-o-o-o
~c-u-t-e!" by dim & clueless members of the female sex.
~Fortunately, no female urgler falls into that category.

Well you have to admit tigers are cute. Big fluffy kittens. With
attitude. And teeth. And claws like kitchen knives. And good luck to
them...

g


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

In article ,
(jane) writes:
|
| When I was in California, just north of SF, I stayed in various youth
| hostels while doing a tour round. All had dire warnings of what would
| happen if a coon got into your car. Trashing it seems to be the
| general result, and my idea of coons as genial furry things went out
| of the window. Never leave your car unattended with a window open or
| else!

Hell, the Californians are scared of bobcats! Ignore 90% of their
phobias.

| Personally, if real coons got into our ecosystem as against this
| coati, I'd hope that someone would encourage folk with traps or
| shotguns to go and get them before they established, as they really
| would be a menace to our native wildlife, much as the released mink
| have been to riverside mammals. Folk would never be able to use black
| sacks for rubbish (they'd shred them), leave things open and what
| about dog or cat flaps?

I wouldn't. Shotguns loaded with birdshot are cruel against animals
that size. And they couldn't get through catflaps.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.