No doubt.
http://www.friesian.com/penrose.htm

http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/v2/ps...6-moravec.html

But what does it have to do with gardening?


"Steve Haigh" wrote in message
...
Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article yrOgc.45$oI2.0@newsfe1-win,
"Andy Hunt" writes:
| So how do plants know which way is 'up', then, when they are
germinating in
| the dark . . . ? Does this not imply some sort of perceptive and
| decision-making capability, albeit on a fairly mundane level?
No. How does water know which way is down when it is running down a
slope? How does a compass know to point north?



No. It slightly goes against the grain to recommend anything by
Richard Dawkins (he is widely regarded as a pain in the a*** by
other scientists)
Not by any scientists I know. I don't know many zoologists and
biologists though, so maybe in his own area he not so well thought off.
Is there a reason for this, has he upset them in some way or is it just
because he's famous?

, but his books do explain how this for of thing
develops without consciousness.
They do indeed.

Roger Penrose also wrote a couple of excellent book on conciousness
called "Shadows of the Mind" and "The Emperor's New Mind".

Cereus-validus wrote:
No doubt.
http://www.friesian.com/penrose.htm

http://psyche.cs.monash.edu.au/v2/ps...6-moravec.html

But what does it have to do with gardening?


"Steve Haigh" wrote in message
...

Nick Maclaren wrote:


In article yrOgc.45$oI2.0@newsfe1-win,
"Andy Hunt" writes:
| So how do plants know which way is 'up', then, when they are

germinating in

| the dark . . . ? Does this not imply some sort of perceptive and
| decision-making capability, albeit on a fairly mundane level?

No. How does water know which way is down when it is running down a
slope? How does a compass know to point north?



No. It slightly goes against the grain to recommend anything by
Richard Dawkins (he is widely regarded as a pain in the a*** by
other scientists)

Not by any scientists I know. I don't know many zoologists and
biologists though, so maybe in his own area he not so well thought off.
Is there a reason for this, has he upset them in some way or is it just
because he's famous?


, but his books do explain how this for of thing
develops without consciousness.

They do indeed.

Roger Penrose also wrote a couple of excellent book on conciousness
called "Shadows of the Mind" and "The Emperor's New Mind".


I'm not sure, but then this thread appears to have nothing to do with
gardening anyway. After reading Penrose's books I'm not even sure I have
a brain. But I must do, 'cos I don't top post;-)

In article ,
Steve Haigh wrote:

No. It slightly goes against the grain to recommend anything by
Richard Dawkins (he is widely regarded as a pain in the a*** by
other scientists)

Not by any scientists I know. I don't know many zoologists and
biologists though, so maybe in his own area he not so well thought off.
Is there a reason for this, has he upset them in some way or is it just
because he's famous?

It is because of his self-publicity and dogmatism.

, but his books do explain how this for of thing
develops without consciousness.

They do indeed.

Even his opponents admit that he is not a fool, his ideas are not
demented, and he can write fairly well.

Roger Penrose also wrote a couple of excellent book on conciousness
called "Shadows of the Mind" and "The Emperor's New Mind".

Er, watch out. He is widely regarded as having flipped his lid when
he retired from real mathematics to ride his hobbyhorses. Those
books may LOOK good but, if you know enough about the area to tell
flannelling from science, you are less impressed.

In particular, his claim that human consciousness is not subject to
the Turing/Goedel limits is unjustified and his evidence fallacious.
And his theory of quantum gravity being the source of consciousness
is reminiscent of L. Ron Hubbard.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

That some New Age clowns

Who are these people of whom you speak? The old teacher of mine to whom I
was referring was a man called Stafford Beer. If you do a 'google' search,
you'll soon discover that your label is somewhat wide of the mark.

are too lazy to actually do any real research into
the subject show just how ignorant and stupid they really are and that
they
should not be given any serious consideration at all. They have been
watching too much bad sci-fi on TV. They are clueless about the scientific
method and how to apply it to even the most basic problems.

I am very well aware of the theory of geotropism etc, although you somewhat
dangerously assume that I am not. I got my 'A' at 'O' level biology, and do
still recall the subject matter. I believe wholeheartedly in science as a
tool of consciousness, but at the same time I'm very much aware that the
reductionist nature of science can lead us into a 'false sense of
obscurity'. A plant is an autopoietic viable system which has the requisite
variety to comprehend and adapt to its environment in the same way that a
human being has. Both systems necessarily have ways of perceiving that
environment, and ways of reacting to that environment. The biological
details may differ, but the purpose is the same.

I was merely pointing out that biology isn't necessarily the whole story.
Then again, I do believe in a "Creator", so I possibly _do_ belong to the
lunatic "New Age" fringe of which you are so fond.


In any case, the extent of their ineptitude has noting to do with
gardening.

Ever read the parable of the tares . . . ? Or of the vineyard? There are
some pretty decent gardening tips in the NT if you ask me! Roll on the great
harvest . . .

Andy

We will miss you most of all, Scarecrow.

Any way you look at it, this newsgroup is about gardening and not you nor
what you believe.


"Andy Hunt" wrote in message
news:_1ehc.20964$4N3.18169@newsfe1-win...


That some New Age clowns

Who are these people of whom you speak? The old teacher of mine to whom I
was referring was a man called Stafford Beer. If you do a 'google' search,
you'll soon discover that your label is somewhat wide of the mark.

are too lazy to actually do any real research into
the subject show just how ignorant and stupid they really are and that
they
should not be given any serious consideration at all. They have been
watching too much bad sci-fi on TV. They are clueless about the
scientific
method and how to apply it to even the most basic problems.

I am very well aware of the theory of geotropism etc, although you
somewhat
dangerously assume that I am not. I got my 'A' at 'O' level biology, and
do
still recall the subject matter. I believe wholeheartedly in science as a
tool of consciousness, but at the same time I'm very much aware that the
reductionist nature of science can lead us into a 'false sense of
obscurity'. A plant is an autopoietic viable system which has the
requisite
variety to comprehend and adapt to its environment in the same way that a
human being has. Both systems necessarily have ways of perceiving that
environment, and ways of reacting to that environment. The biological
details may differ, but the purpose is the same.

I was merely pointing out that biology isn't necessarily the whole story.
Then again, I do believe in a "Creator", so I possibly _do_ belong to the
lunatic "New Age" fringe of which you are so fond.


In any case, the extent of their ineptitude has noting to do with
gardening.

Ever read the parable of the tares . . . ? Or of the vineyard? There are
some pretty decent gardening tips in the NT if you ask me! Roll on the
great
harvest . . .

Andy

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 14:50:02 GMT, Cereus-validus wrote:

Why don't you go back to contemplating your navel, Tiny Tim, take your New
Age drivel to some newsgroup more appropriate where they might take you
silliness seriously and not show everyone in this one just how flaky you
are?

If you took a poll here, the overwhelming majority would
say you and your twinkie friends lack any consciousness.

I would recommend you stay away from woodlands lest you be attacked by
squirrels. Those critters already know what you are!

"Tim Challenger" "timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" wrote in message
s.com...
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:12:46 +0100, Andy Hunt wrote:

Similarly, if you look for the _growth_ in a plant, you won't
find it . . .

I know what you mean, but as I said elsewhere, who decides what is
consciousness? And how? Boiling it down again you end up with "I think,
therefore I am" and that's all you can prove. Well, *YOU* can't prove it,
because you're just a figment of my imagination, but *I* can.

What is your personal definition of consciousness? Are viruses conscious?
Bacteria? Fungi? Algae? Apple-trees? Sponges? Jellyfish? Octopuses?
Fish?
Humans?
If some of these are conscious then why? And why not the others? That's
the
hard bit; trying to identify the boiled-down chemical processes which make
something self-aware. Or even to reach a consensus on what is actually
meant by consciousness.
--
Tim C.

What *are* you talking about? Me New Age? That's a laugh. What makes you
think that?

--
Tim C.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 19:27:42 +0100, Andy Hunt wrote:


That some New Age clowns

Who are these people of whom you speak? The old teacher of mine to whom I
was referring was a man called Stafford Beer. If you do a 'google' search,
you'll soon discover that your label is somewhat wide of the mark.


He seems to think it's me. :-)

--
Tim C.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 03:12:21 GMT, Cereus-validus wrote:

We will miss you most of all, Scarecrow.

Any way you look at it, this newsgroup is about gardening and not you nor
what you believe.

But then at the last count, out of 34 posts in this thread 10 of them are
from you. In fact, you posted most in this thread.

And why the sudden switch from the apparent intelligence in your earlier
posts to blatant insults? Run out of ideas?

--
Tim C.

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:198186

Why are you so paranoid, Challenged Tim?

Are you afraid that the plants might be talking about you behind your back?

You have been counting the number of postings on this silly thread? Your
time would be much better spent tending to your garden, don't you think?


"Tim Challenger" "timothy(dot)challenger(at)apk(dot)at" wrote in message
s.com...
On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 03:12:21 GMT, Cereus-validus wrote:

We will miss you most of all, Scarecrow.

Any way you look at it, this newsgroup is about gardening and not you
nor
what you believe.

But then at the last count, out of 34 posts in this thread 10 of them are
from you. In fact, you posted most in this thread.

And why the sudden switch from the apparent intelligence in your earlier
posts to blatant insults? Run out of ideas?

--
Tim C.

On Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:34:30 GMT, Cereus-validus wrote:

Why are you so paranoid, Challenged Tim?

Are you afraid that the plants might be talking about you behind your back?

You have been counting the number of postings on this silly thread? Your
time would be much better spent tending to your garden, don't you think?

Absolutely, but as I'm at work....

--
Tim C.

Bob Hobden wrote:

"Robert" wrote in message after Rajinder...
:
: It may seem a silly question but I have heard that the plants have
: "lesser brain", the seat of instincts.
:
: Is it true?
:

Well they're more intelligent than President Bush but I don' think there's
a
lot in it

Hmmm, after 9/11 everyone in the world expected another similar terrorist
atrocity in the US within months, it hasn't happened yet. Why? Because a lot
of the terrorist types are now engaged with well trained and well armed
soldiers in Iraq and a lot of the "terrorists" are being killed as opposed
to US civilians.
So is Bush an idiot or a damn good chess player?

He's an idiot and a dangerous idiot at that. Some of the people pulling
his strings are certainly a lot brighter but that wouldn't take much ...
--
Larry Stoter

Hi,

Read the Bible to understand the present. Read the Parable of wheat and
Tares. tares are bundled up in Israel for Final Burning. When, I don't
know.

Rajinder

"Larry Stoter" wrote in message
k...
Bob Hobden wrote:

"Robert" wrote in message after Rajinder...
:
: It may seem a silly question but I have heard that the plants
have
: "lesser brain", the seat of instincts.
:
: Is it true?
:

Well they're more intelligent than President Bush but I don' think
there's
a
lot in it

Hmmm, after 9/11 everyone in the world expected another similar
terrorist
atrocity in the US within months, it hasn't happened yet. Why?
Because a lot
of the terrorist types are now engaged with well trained and well
armed
soldiers in Iraq and a lot of the "terrorists" are being killed as
opposed
to US civilians.
So is Bush an idiot or a damn good chess player?

He's an idiot and a dangerous idiot at that. Some of the people
pulling
his strings are certainly a lot brighter but that wouldn't take much
....
--
Larry Stoter

They seem to have the lesser brain of instincts. They act like a
Natural Man.

Rajinder

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

Rajinder wrote in message
It may seem a silly question but I have heard that the plants have
"lesser brain", the seat of instincts.

Is it true?

Well I know they react to damage, compete with others, and seem to
have a
will to live their time, so there might be something controlling these
processes even if just at the cell level.

--
Regards
Bob

Use a useful Screen Saver...
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
and find intelligent life amongst the stars

Hi,

What about comparing their system with our lesser brain please?

Rajinder

"Brian" wrote in message
...
Plants can, and do, respond to stimuli. However this is only an
indication
that they are alive and in no way suggests the presence of a brain in
the
way that we understand.
Only intentionally silly questions are deemed silly.
Best Wishes Brian
"Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar Jatt" wrote in
message
news:CUxgc.11$mv.3@newsfe1-win...
Hi,

It may seem a silly question but I have heard that the plants have
"lesser brain", the seat of instincts.

Is it true?

Rajinder

Could it be similar to our lesser brain that has natural instincts only?
Capacity to hear is of our mid brain.

Rajinder

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message ...
The message CUxgc.11$mv.3@newsfe1-win
from "Ch. Rajinder Nijjhar Jatt"
contains these words:

It may seem a silly question but I have heard that the plants have
"lesser brain", the seat of instincts.

Some plants will react to being touched by rapidly becoming flaccid,
so
some sort of nervous system could be involved.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/