Hi,

I'm going to be sowing a wildflower meadow in a steep verge at the back of
our garden, approx 40ft long X 14ft high with a flat top about 6ft wide.

I've found a great site (no spamming, but it's in Ireland) that sells
(what appears to be) probably the best mixes of seeds.

The problem is, I'm having difficulty identifying my soil type, so I can
choose an appropriate mix.

I live in the NE of Scotland, about 500 yards from the coast, and as you
can guess it's very exposed and windy, short but warm summers, and lots of
rain (of course). The area is not very much above sea level.

The area for sewing is currently home to some very healthy looking wild
grass and weeds - in fact the dock plants are absolutely huge and the
grass in an incredibly dark green. I don't have a soil kit, but I'd guess
it is very high in nitrogen and probably alkaline.

I'd describe the soil as:

Top - light grey in colour and silty texture (when dry).
2 inches down - darker, almost beige colour, going silty/sandy.
6 inches down - heavier, very sandy, traces of clay.
Full spades length - Heavy moist silt/sand and big solid lumps of clay.

The website I'm looking at has a few classifications, but none seem to fit
100%. The choices are (brace yourself):

1. Fertile Top Soil (moist, rich in humus) - Definitely not.
2. Clay and Gleys (sticky top soil) - Clay yes, but not on top.
3. Dry Loam and Verges (improved soils) - Verge yes, but not that dry.
4. Sandy Soil or Stony Till (pH 7.9) - Yes, but *how* sandy is sandy?
5. Moist Soil with a high peat content - Definitely not.
6. Moist Acid Soils (acid / neutral pH 7) - Acid? Moist yes.
7. Dry Acid Soils (often shallow over stone) - Acid? Few stones.
8. Moist Alkaline / Lime Soils (alkaline, pH 7) - Don't know.
9. Dry Alkaline / Lime Soils (alkaline, pH 7) - Not dry. Alkaline?
10. Dry Soils on Steep Slopes - Dry top and slope, yes - but deeper?
11. Wet Soils on Steep Slopes - *How* wet is wet?
12. Shaded Soils on Steep Slopes - Not shaded.
13. Free Draining Soils in High rainfall areas - Free draining with clay?
14. Wet Acid Gley and 'Cutaways' (pH 7) - No idea?
15. Alkaline Brown Earth - Don't know.
16. Neutral to Acid Brown podzols - Don't know.
17. Shallow Soil over Rock - Definitely not.
18. Raw Impoverished Sub Soil - Could be.
19. Wet Soil (never dries) - Dry on top.
20. Upland Soils (short summers) - Short summers, yes - upland no.

Choices, choices ... but which one?

TIA,

-
[H]omer

In article , [H]omer
writes
Hi,

I'm going to be sowing a wildflower meadow in a steep verge at the back of
our garden, approx 40ft long X 14ft high with a flat top about 6ft wide.

I've found a great site (no spamming, but it's in Ireland) that sells
(what appears to be) probably the best mixes of seeds.

The problem is, I'm having difficulty identifying my soil type, so I can
choose an appropriate mix.

I live in the NE of Scotland, about 500 yards from the coast, and as you
can guess it's very exposed and windy, short but warm summers, and lots of
rain (of course). The area is not very much above sea level.

The area for sewing is currently home to some very healthy looking wild
grass and weeds - in fact the dock plants are absolutely huge and the
grass in an incredibly dark green. I don't have a soil kit, but I'd guess
it is very high in nitrogen and probably alkaline.

High in nitrogen sounds right, and you may find it challenging to
establish a wildflower meadow until you reduce that - grass competes
very well in high nitrogen conditions. The ideal would be to spend
several years mowing and removing all the mowings, but that isn't going
to suit your requirements! So go for a mix with fairly robust plants in
it, and accept that some of the wildflowers may be crowded out and may
need replanting (as plug plants) in future years.

As to acidity/alkalinity - what plants grow round about? Apart from the
docks, what are the weeds in the rest of your garden? Do people grow
rhododendrons and so on?


The website I'm looking at has a few classifications, but none seem to fit
100%. The choices are (brace yourself):

1. Fertile Top Soil (moist, rich in humus) - Definitely not.
2. Clay and Gleys (sticky top soil) - Clay yes, but not on top.
3. Dry Loam and Verges (improved soils) - Verge yes, but not that dry.

I wonder if the 'improved soil' description means this would be suitable
for your high nitrogen conditions? Plants that tolerate dryness can
often cope with wetter soils as long as the roots don't stay too wet.

4. Sandy Soil or Stony Till (pH 7.9) - Yes, but *how* sandy is sandy?

Probably sandier than you have, and very alkaline. I'd steer away from
this one.

6. Moist Acid Soils (acid / neutral pH 7) - Acid? Moist yes.

A possible, since it's OK for neutral, but try and get a better fix on
how alkaline you are.

7. Dry Acid Soils (often shallow over stone) - Acid? Few stones.

This sounds as if it needs to be well drained which you won't be over
clay.

8. Moist Alkaline / Lime Soils (alkaline, pH 7) - Don't know.

Possible, if you're sure you're alkaline.

9. Dry Alkaline / Lime Soils (alkaline, pH 7) - Not dry. Alkaline?

No. Don't think you'd be getting docks if this was the right one for
you.

10. Dry Soils on Steep Slopes - Dry top and slope, yes - but deeper?
11. Wet Soils on Steep Slopes - *How* wet is wet?

At a guess - moist all the year round, not susceptible to drought,
rather than waterlogged.

18. Raw Impoverished Sub Soil - Could be.

Not with docks!


Choices, choices ... but which one?

a) How expensive are they, and what quantities do you need to buy? Could
you try two or three different mixes?
b) But best suggestion is to phone them and seek their advice. They know
what they've put in the mixes!

What is the site? I'd be interested in seeing what they have too.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , [H]omer
writes
Hi,

I'm going to be sowing a wildflower meadow in a steep verge at the back
of
our garden, approx 40ft long X 14ft high with a flat top about 6ft wide.

I've found a great site (no spamming, but it's in Ireland) that sells
(what appears to be) probably the best mixes of seeds.

The problem is, I'm having difficulty identifying my soil type, so I can
choose an appropriate mix.

I live in the NE of Scotland, about 500 yards from the coast, and as you
can guess it's very exposed and windy, short but warm summers, and lots
of
rain (of course). The area is not very much above sea level.

The area for sewing is currently home to some very healthy looking wild
grass and weeds - in fact the dock plants are absolutely huge and the
grass in an incredibly dark green. I don't have a soil kit, but I'd guess
it is very high in nitrogen and probably alkaline.

High in nitrogen sounds right, and you may find it challenging to
establish a wildflower meadow until you reduce that - grass competes
very well in high nitrogen conditions. The ideal would be to spend
several years mowing and removing all the mowings, but that isn't going
to suit your requirements! So go for a mix with fairly robust plants in
it, and accept that some of the wildflowers may be crowded out and may
need replanting (as plug plants) in future years.

Just a thought.... since cabbage likes it's nitrogen.... anyone thought of
using it (without digging up the whole place) to deplete N levels?

Patrick

The message
from "[H]omer" contains these words:

Hi,

I'm going to be sowing a wildflower meadow in a steep verge at the back of
our garden, approx 40ft long X 14ft high with a flat top about 6ft wide.

Meadow ecologies are maintained either by grazing animals, or by
people imitating grazing by cutting and removing all the topgrowth.
Unless this is done, nature will take its course...coarse plants with
big leaves (like dock) shade out smaller ones, exactly what you're
seeing.

You need to think very carefully about how you are going to regularly
mow a steep slope 14ft high. Unless you have a way to do it, you'll
never make it into a wildflower meadow.

Your climate is neither as wet, nor as mild, as Ireland's. If you go
ahead, your best source of advice and seed is local. I recommend Jupiter
plants which are in East Scotland; specialist suppliers for such
projects. You'll find them with a websearch.

Janet.

On Thu, 13 May 2004 13:41:37 +0100, Kay Easton wrote:

In article , [H]omer
writes

3. Dry Loam and Verges (improved soils) - Verge yes, but not that dry.

I wonder if the 'improved soil' description means this would be suitable
for your high nitrogen conditions?

The nitrogen level seems to be the overwhelming factor here, so you've got
a good point.

18. Raw Impoverished Sub Soil - Could be.

Not with docks!

Yes, exactly. I wasn't thinking clearly about that.

a) How expensive are they, and what quantities do you need to buy?

€160/Kg.

The site claims that although the prices are high, you get good value,
since they don't "cut" their mixes with grass seed ... unless you
specifically ask for it. They also claim that *all* the species they use
are 100% genuinely native varieties harvested from plants within Ireland.

Could you try two or three different mixes?

Certainly, although they are *quite* expensive. See the link below.

b) But best suggestion is to phone them and seek their advice. They know
what they've put in the mixes!

Yup, I'll do that.

What is the site? I'd be interested in seeing what they have too.

Since you've asked for the link to a commercial site ...:

http://www.allgowild.com/dbn_trade_c...pricelists.htm

Thanks,

-
[H]omer

On Thu, 13 May 2004 18:31:20 +0100, wrote:

The message
from "[H]omer" contains these words:

Hi,

I'm going to be sowing a wildflower meadow in a steep verge at the back of
our garden, approx 40ft long X 14ft high with a flat top about 6ft wide.

Meadow ecologies are maintained either by grazing animals, or by
people imitating grazing by cutting and removing all the topgrowth.

We have wabbits.

Seriously though, sure ... I'll be cutting it - somehow.

You need to think very carefully about how you are going to regularly
mow a steep slope 14ft high.

Would a strimmer be OK?

I was only planning on maintaining the flat top area anyway, and just let
the slope remain wild.

Your climate is neither as wet, nor as mild, as Ireland's. If you go
ahead, your best source of advice and seed is local. I recommend Jupiter
plants which are in East Scotland

Thanks, I'll look them up.

-
[H]omer

On Thu, 13 May 2004 21:42:43 +0100, [H]omer wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2004 18:31:20 +0100, wrote:

I recommend Jupiter plants which are in East Scotland

Thanks, I'll look them up.

Hm, they don't seem to have a website, just a small page at the Scottish
Wildlife Trust.

Oh well ... if I ever happen to be passing Grangemouth ...

-
[H]omer

In article , [H]omer
writes

b) But best suggestion is to phone them and seek their advice. They know
what they've put in the mixes!

Yup, I'll do that.

If you get to the 'growers manual' page you'll find this offer -
"While you are browsing between the Corn poppies and Primroses, learning
how to attract butterflies, why not get a real start and fill in the
following online form, provide details of your project, site or garden's
growing conditions and tell use about your situation and we will suggest
a seed mixture to suit your needs: Fill in a form to send us your Pre-
Sowing Details and we will reply with a quotation"



What is the site? I'd be interested in seeing what they have too.

Since you've asked for the link to a commercial site ...:

http://www.allgowild.com/dbn_trade_c...pricelists.htm

That's a nice site, with a lot of helpful information in it. Thanks! I
haven't had time for a good look yet, but there seems to be an awful lot
of information on preparation and maintenance. I found the 'growing
wildflower meadows in public places' very relevant to out work looking
after and urban wildlife park.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

In article , [H]omer
writes
On Thu, 13 May 2004 18:31:20 +0100, wrote:

You need to think very carefully about how you are going to regularly
mow a steep slope 14ft high.

Would a strimmer be OK?

I was only planning on maintaining the flat top area anyway, and just let
the slope remain wild.

In that case, don't bother about sowing the slope with wildflowers, as
they'll get crowded out.


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

In article , Kay Easton
writes

In that case, don't bother about sowing the slope with wildflowers, as
they'll get crowded out.


I noticed the following on the site you recommended:

Bluebell:
Management: Persistence in woodland and certain managed grassland.
Moderate tolerance of cutting but will compete well on steep banks with
no cutting.
Management options: Keep humus levels high, shelter the woodland floor,


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

"[H]omer" wrote in
news

Seriously though, sure ... I'll be cutting it - somehow.

You need to think very carefully about how you are going to
regularly
mow a steep slope 14ft high.

Would a strimmer be OK?

I was only planning on maintaining the flat top area anyway, and just
let the slope remain wild.

I find a little light wheeled lawnmower is easier than a strimmer,
unless it's waist high (not a flymo, they are crap). Most of my garden
is steep banks.

You can roll the mower down the slope from the top on the end of a rope,
if it's too steep to easily stand on, and you decided you wanted to keep
it shorter.

(If it's too steep even for that, you could do what my neighbour does,
and use a hedgecutter to'mow' it!)

Cowparsley, red campion, foxgloves and ramsons are wildflowers that seem
to be able to compete with docks* & nettles, as well as the bluebells
Kay mentioned. At least, they do down here - dunno about where you are,
but keep an eye out this year to see what is in bloom in similar
locations.

I wouldn't start those from seed unless I had to though. I'd beg roots
off someone who was doing some weeding!


* I can actually see the joy of a mass of docks when they flower and
then
the leaves go all red. But no-one ever agrees with me...

Victoria
--
gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--

On Fri, 14 May 2004 18:14:50 +0200, martin wrote:

On Thu, 13 May 2004 22:20:21 +0100, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message
from "[H]omer" contains these words:


You need to think very carefully about how you are going to regularly
mow a steep slope 14ft high.

Would a strimmer be OK?

Only if your arms are seven feet long.

and your legs too.

By amazing coincidence ...

Actually I've just spent the last couple of days strimming and digging.
Hard work, but not as awkward as I thought it would be ... even with a
crap low powered electric strimmer (note to self: buy petrol strimmer).

The biggest problem has been the granite chips (blocks, more like; about
the size of a fist or bigger) that my father had used as a barrier against
weeds. It didn't work; the weeds defied the rocks and the grass just grew
right through them. He'd dug a trench at the top-rear of the slope, lined
it with some kind of poly-liner, then filled it with the granite. It
looked terrible, interfered with maintenance, and got covered (and
embedded) with organic waste that proved very time consuming to clean up.

It'll take me at least another full day to move those rocks, re-dig and
level the soil, and maybe re-use *some* of the rocks as a neater single
line at the back, for decoration. So if someone needs a couple of tonne of
red granite rocks, gimme a call ...

That grass was an absolute nightmare to dig up. I've never seen roots like
it; you could tow a car with them. I'm not too worried about completely
eradicating the grass though (there's still some traces of roots in the
soil) since I'll let it re-grow once the "meadow" has established.

All I need now is wildflower species that compete/live well with wild
grass.

-
[H]omer

On Fri, 14 May 2004 22:56:29 +0100, "[H]omer" wrote:


All I need now is wildflower species that compete/live well with wild
grass.

buttercups? :-)

The message
from "[H]omer" contains these words:

Would a strimmer be OK?

Only if your arms are seven feet long.

and your legs too.

By amazing coincidence ...

Actually I've just spent the last couple of days strimming and digging.
Hard work, but not as awkward as I thought it would be ... even with a
crap low powered electric strimmer (note to self: buy petrol strimmer).

But seriously....using a p[etrol strimmer on a severe slope can be a0
v.difficult and b)v. dangerous.

That grass was an absolute nightmare to dig up. I've never seen roots like
it; you could tow a car with them. I'm not too worried about completely
eradicating the grass though (there's still some traces of roots in the
soil) since I'll let it re-grow once the "meadow" has established.

All I need now is wildflower species that compete/live well with wild
grass.

Woah..if it's couch grass, which it sounds like, that does not combine
well with wildflower species.

If you go to the weekly abc.for.newcomers.to.urg post, you'll find a
link to the urgring of posters gardens, and in the urgring you'll find
"janet and john's garden", my old (3.6 acre) garden complete with
wildflower meadow. I'm speaking from experience here :-)

The grasses of (successful) wildflower meadoes, are fine-leaved
species. It's essential to eliminate couchgrass first.

Janet

On Thu, 13 May 2004 22:20:21 +0100, Janet Baraclough..
wrote:

The message
from "[H]omer" contains these words:


You need to think very carefully about how you are going to regularly
mow a steep slope 14ft high.

Would a strimmer be OK?

Only if your arms are seven feet long.

and your legs too.