Franz Heymann wrote:


Is that just an opinion, or can you back it up with quantitative
evidence?
I have some evidence to the contrary, because every now and again I
ask for a water test report from my water company, just for fun. None
of those reports have ever indicated any problems arising from
pesticide residues in the water.



analysis in your local area of course not.
on the other hand if i speak of my own area i could say a lot.


And I believe the contrary.
I am afraid beliefs are irrelevant. Do you have access to an analysis
which might back up your belief?


Franz



i was not speaking in strict local terms since the exhaust gases (of the
transport vehicles) is not located in one area either.
i think in more general terms of the polution of the environment and not
by just poluting the local enviromnent of the production area. for a
example an industry of fertilisers (or pesticides) has a lot in common
with any other chemical industry and tha includes the polution of the
enviroment it causes.

in my local area one of the most common problems is the drop of the
pressure (due to intense cultivation of the soil) of the aquifers enough
for the sea to come in and procude water with high levels of
conductivity and so our water ends up salty. we have other problems with
our soils too but this is one of the most promiment.
i do not know any water analysis test about pesticide traces in water
but that is relevant with the type of the aquifer anyway so it may or
may not be very important.

--



--------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Apostolakis
e-mail:
Web Site: http://agriroot.aua.gr/~nickapos
--------------------------------------------------------------

On 6/6/04 1:28 AM, in article , "Kay
Easton" wrote:

In article , gary davis
writes

Worried about sprays? And so you should. We all should. Eliminate the
doubt and support your local certified organic farmer.

That's just our problem! In the UK we don't have that many certified
organic growers,
Well, it is not surprising that you do not have many organic growers! It is
very difficult to become an organic grower because they are unable (by
regulation) to use 'chemicals' that are harmful to the soil. The rules of
organic farming makes it tough for farmers! They cannot just simply plant
seeds and watch them grow. They are not allowed to use chemicals that kill
all vegetation so they must find a way to do that on their own...suppress
the weeds, eliminate them and still find time to plant. It is a tough time
for them. But should they have the 'jam' to follow it through it bodes well
for the future of vitamin rich produce.
The reason I say this is because it is the worms in the ground that do
the work. They produce 'plant food'...food plants can utilize. Killing
weeds with chemicals upsets the balance...and the worms are not fed. If they
are not fed, they die.
Chemical fertilizers feed plants but there is no food for the
worms...without worms the ground becomes infertile. It then requires more
chemical fertilizers...what happens should chemical fertilizers become
unavailable? We live in a volatile world, it could happen. Then what?
In Canada, were I live, certified organic farmers are not even allowed
to put manure of any kind on their fields until it has been composted. I
don't necessarily agree with this but those are the rules! And they are
followed by the certified organic growers here! Tough rules, tougher
farmers!
They are motivated to follow the rules and set them themselves! Self
monitored! They know the value of many things including worms! They feed
them...the worms: chemical fertilizers, which they won't use, don't (feed
the worms) thus the composted manures. Don't you just love their commitment?
They are nuts about this...drives me crazy sometimes...g

and a lot of our organic produce comes from spain and
further afield - so we may not get a personal dose of pesticide, but
we're contributing overall to global warming and vehicle emissions.

Yes, Kay you have raised a point that many of us are not aware of...the cost
in pollution of the delivering of the produce from afar. It is a subtle
point but well taken.


But if I were a lobbyist for the non-organic farming industry, the
amount of travel involved for organic produce is just what I would be
talking about loud and wide ... so .. I don't know.

Yes, I don't know all the truths about this either but I do know that
helping the local organic farmer by firstly-finding him/her and supporting
the process by buying their products. That will be a start. Starting is one
of the most important things...just start! Then after 'the start' more
farmers will be encouraged to follow the lead. It will not be easy, but it
will be worth it!

Note: One of out local certified organic farmers produces lettuce too large
to put in the standard (24 per case) box. He sells them at what we call Farm
Gate-the farmers doorstep market. It's worth the drive...

Perhaps the demand
for organic produce, at present being fulfilled by imported stuff, will
encourage more organic producers in this country and in the longer run
reduce the need for imports.
I'm not sure if this response is truly Canadian or our American
cousins...but..YUP!

Kay, thank you for your concerns.
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada

On 6/6/04 4:00 PM, in article , "David
Hill" wrote:

"......... lets say that we have a vegetable that is sprayed with a
pesticide. The pesticide says that after 15 days it gets degraded to non
toxic elements..............."

What this in fact means is that the pesticide will be inactive within about
7 days, the rest of the time is the safety barrier that the company has to
have to allow for people using it stronger than it should be, for adverse
weather conditions etc that may slow down the plants metabolism.

As for washing the veg/fruit this does nothing for systemic sprays, but
with the re introduction of old so called organic sprays then washing is
good as most will remain on the surface.
Also a lot of fruit is either sprayed or dipped after picking to maintain
condition in the box during transit and storage.

Finally...when it comes to buying from local "certified" organic growers
(and many will say that anyone in the UK trying to make a living from
growing Organic should be certified),

It is very tough to grow produce organically and especially to be
certified. I quote what you wrote "(and many will say that anyone in the UK
trying to make a living from growing Organic should be certified)". Why do
you say that?
The reason I am asking is because as you know there are those who will
cheat. Cheating destroys the integrity of those who follow the rules. Being
certified means just that 'being certified'. Unless a farmer is certified by
his peers then the farm is not certified. I do understand your point but its
the integrity of the 'decision' that is at question here.

the organic prices are falling every
year and several large organic growers in the UK have given up as they can't
make it pay any longer even using foreign labour for harvesting.

They gave up...tough is tough. Yes...its tough. How much certified product
have you purchase recently? Anything worthwhile is worth supporting.

This is largely due to the imported "Organic" produce being imported from
low wage economies.

It is easy to blame someone else. I would say, "I do it all the time" but
then Franz would take me to task...

Where Spain was one of these a few years ago, now the Spanish growers are
having to use imported labour (Mostly Moroccan) as the Spanish workers are
now to expensive to employ.
In the UK it is getting very hard to find British people to work on the land
and every year many thousands of foreign workers come here to harvest fruit
and veg.
This reminds me of the 50's when we brought in West Indians because the
British wouldn't do jobs like bus driving etc.

Yes, there is this and that that creates a challenge almost all the time.
But, the UK has certified organic growers....support them! Give them a
chance. I tell you this and I haven't even met any of them. I hope they have
the same attitude that I have...but no...they need an income and some
satisfaction that they are doing the right thing.
When you buy from them, you can be assured that you are doing the right
thing. Ask them if they compost and if they don't, give them my email
address. (I am serious...get them to email me...I want to communicate
with them...I love company).
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada

Franz Heymann wrote:


Is that just an opinion, or can you back it up with quantitative
evidence?
I have some evidence to the contrary, because every now and again I
ask for a water test report from my water company, just for fun. None
of those reports have ever indicated any problems arising from
pesticide residues in the water.



analysis in your local area of course not.
on the other hand if i speak of my own area i could say a lot.


And I believe the contrary.
I am afraid beliefs are irrelevant. Do you have access to an analysis
which might back up your belief?


Franz



i was not speaking in strict local terms since the exhaust gases (of the
transport vehicles) is not located in one area either.
i think in more general terms of the polution of the environment and not
by just poluting the local enviromnent of the production area. for a
example an industry of fertilisers (or pesticides) has a lot in common
with any other chemical industry and tha includes the polution of the
enviroment it causes.

in my local area one of the most common problems is the drop of the
pressure (due to intense cultivation of the soil) of the aquifers enough
for the sea to come in and procude water with high levels of
conductivity and so our water ends up salty. we have other problems with
our soils too but this is one of the most promiment.
i do not know any water analysis test about pesticide traces in water
but that is relevant with the type of the aquifer anyway so it may or
may not be very important.

--



--------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Apostolakis
e-mail:
Web Site: http://agriroot.aua.gr/~nickapos
--------------------------------------------------------------

On 6/6/04 1:28 AM, in article , "Kay
Easton" wrote:

In article , gary davis
writes

Worried about sprays? And so you should. We all should. Eliminate the
doubt and support your local certified organic farmer.

That's just our problem! In the UK we don't have that many certified
organic growers,
Well, it is not surprising that you do not have many organic growers! It is
very difficult to become an organic grower because they are unable (by
regulation) to use 'chemicals' that are harmful to the soil. The rules of
organic farming makes it tough for farmers! They cannot just simply plant
seeds and watch them grow. They are not allowed to use chemicals that kill
all vegetation so they must find a way to do that on their own...suppress
the weeds, eliminate them and still find time to plant. It is a tough time
for them. But should they have the 'jam' to follow it through it bodes well
for the future of vitamin rich produce.
The reason I say this is because it is the worms in the ground that do
the work. They produce 'plant food'...food plants can utilize. Killing
weeds with chemicals upsets the balance...and the worms are not fed. If they
are not fed, they die.
Chemical fertilizers feed plants but there is no food for the
worms...without worms the ground becomes infertile. It then requires more
chemical fertilizers...what happens should chemical fertilizers become
unavailable? We live in a volatile world, it could happen. Then what?
In Canada, were I live, certified organic farmers are not even allowed
to put manure of any kind on their fields until it has been composted. I
don't necessarily agree with this but those are the rules! And they are
followed by the certified organic growers here! Tough rules, tougher
farmers!
They are motivated to follow the rules and set them themselves! Self
monitored! They know the value of many things including worms! They feed
them...the worms: chemical fertilizers, which they won't use, don't (feed
the worms) thus the composted manures. Don't you just love their commitment?
They are nuts about this...drives me crazy sometimes...g

and a lot of our organic produce comes from spain and
further afield - so we may not get a personal dose of pesticide, but
we're contributing overall to global warming and vehicle emissions.

Yes, Kay you have raised a point that many of us are not aware of...the cost
in pollution of the delivering of the produce from afar. It is a subtle
point but well taken.


But if I were a lobbyist for the non-organic farming industry, the
amount of travel involved for organic produce is just what I would be
talking about loud and wide ... so .. I don't know.

Yes, I don't know all the truths about this either but I do know that
helping the local organic farmer by firstly-finding him/her and supporting
the process by buying their products. That will be a start. Starting is one
of the most important things...just start! Then after 'the start' more
farmers will be encouraged to follow the lead. It will not be easy, but it
will be worth it!

Note: One of out local certified organic farmers produces lettuce too large
to put in the standard (24 per case) box. He sells them at what we call Farm
Gate-the farmers doorstep market. It's worth the drive...

Perhaps the demand
for organic produce, at present being fulfilled by imported stuff, will
encourage more organic producers in this country and in the longer run
reduce the need for imports.
I'm not sure if this response is truly Canadian or our American
cousins...but..YUP!

Kay, thank you for your concerns.
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada

On 6/6/04 4:00 PM, in article , "David
Hill" wrote:

"......... lets say that we have a vegetable that is sprayed with a
pesticide. The pesticide says that after 15 days it gets degraded to non
toxic elements..............."

What this in fact means is that the pesticide will be inactive within about
7 days, the rest of the time is the safety barrier that the company has to
have to allow for people using it stronger than it should be, for adverse
weather conditions etc that may slow down the plants metabolism.

As for washing the veg/fruit this does nothing for systemic sprays, but
with the re introduction of old so called organic sprays then washing is
good as most will remain on the surface.
Also a lot of fruit is either sprayed or dipped after picking to maintain
condition in the box during transit and storage.

Finally...when it comes to buying from local "certified" organic growers
(and many will say that anyone in the UK trying to make a living from
growing Organic should be certified),

It is very tough to grow produce organically and especially to be
certified. I quote what you wrote "(and many will say that anyone in the UK
trying to make a living from growing Organic should be certified)". Why do
you say that?
The reason I am asking is because as you know there are those who will
cheat. Cheating destroys the integrity of those who follow the rules. Being
certified means just that 'being certified'. Unless a farmer is certified by
his peers then the farm is not certified. I do understand your point but its
the integrity of the 'decision' that is at question here.

the organic prices are falling every
year and several large organic growers in the UK have given up as they can't
make it pay any longer even using foreign labour for harvesting.

They gave up...tough is tough. Yes...its tough. How much certified product
have you purchase recently? Anything worthwhile is worth supporting.

This is largely due to the imported "Organic" produce being imported from
low wage economies.

It is easy to blame someone else. I would say, "I do it all the time" but
then Franz would take me to task...

Where Spain was one of these a few years ago, now the Spanish growers are
having to use imported labour (Mostly Moroccan) as the Spanish workers are
now to expensive to employ.
In the UK it is getting very hard to find British people to work on the land
and every year many thousands of foreign workers come here to harvest fruit
and veg.
This reminds me of the 50's when we brought in West Indians because the
British wouldn't do jobs like bus driving etc.

Yes, there is this and that that creates a challenge almost all the time.
But, the UK has certified organic growers....support them! Give them a
chance. I tell you this and I haven't even met any of them. I hope they have
the same attitude that I have...but no...they need an income and some
satisfaction that they are doing the right thing.
When you buy from them, you can be assured that you are doing the right
thing. Ask them if they compost and if they don't, give them my email
address. (I am serious...get them to email me...I want to communicate
with them...I love company).
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada

Franz Heymann wrote:


Is that just an opinion, or can you back it up with quantitative
evidence?
I have some evidence to the contrary, because every now and again I
ask for a water test report from my water company, just for fun. None
of those reports have ever indicated any problems arising from
pesticide residues in the water.



analysis in your local area of course not.
on the other hand if i speak of my own area i could say a lot.


And I believe the contrary.
I am afraid beliefs are irrelevant. Do you have access to an analysis
which might back up your belief?


Franz



i was not speaking in strict local terms since the exhaust gases (of the
transport vehicles) is not located in one area either.
i think in more general terms of the polution of the environment and not
by just poluting the local enviromnent of the production area. for a
example an industry of fertilisers (or pesticides) has a lot in common
with any other chemical industry and tha includes the polution of the
enviroment it causes.

in my local area one of the most common problems is the drop of the
pressure (due to intense cultivation of the soil) of the aquifers enough
for the sea to come in and procude water with high levels of
conductivity and so our water ends up salty. we have other problems with
our soils too but this is one of the most promiment.
i do not know any water analysis test about pesticide traces in water
but that is relevant with the type of the aquifer anyway so it may or
may not be very important.

--



--------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Apostolakis
e-mail:
Web Site: http://agriroot.aua.gr/~nickapos
--------------------------------------------------------------

On 6/6/04 1:28 AM, in article , "Kay
Easton" wrote:

In article , gary davis
writes

Worried about sprays? And so you should. We all should. Eliminate the
doubt and support your local certified organic farmer.

That's just our problem! In the UK we don't have that many certified
organic growers,
Well, it is not surprising that you do not have many organic growers! It is
very difficult to become an organic grower because they are unable (by
regulation) to use 'chemicals' that are harmful to the soil. The rules of
organic farming makes it tough for farmers! They cannot just simply plant
seeds and watch them grow. They are not allowed to use chemicals that kill
all vegetation so they must find a way to do that on their own...suppress
the weeds, eliminate them and still find time to plant. It is a tough time
for them. But should they have the 'jam' to follow it through it bodes well
for the future of vitamin rich produce.
The reason I say this is because it is the worms in the ground that do
the work. They produce 'plant food'...food plants can utilize. Killing
weeds with chemicals upsets the balance...and the worms are not fed. If they
are not fed, they die.
Chemical fertilizers feed plants but there is no food for the
worms...without worms the ground becomes infertile. It then requires more
chemical fertilizers...what happens should chemical fertilizers become
unavailable? We live in a volatile world, it could happen. Then what?
In Canada, were I live, certified organic farmers are not even allowed
to put manure of any kind on their fields until it has been composted. I
don't necessarily agree with this but those are the rules! And they are
followed by the certified organic growers here! Tough rules, tougher
farmers!
They are motivated to follow the rules and set them themselves! Self
monitored! They know the value of many things including worms! They feed
them...the worms: chemical fertilizers, which they won't use, don't (feed
the worms) thus the composted manures. Don't you just love their commitment?
They are nuts about this...drives me crazy sometimes...g

and a lot of our organic produce comes from spain and
further afield - so we may not get a personal dose of pesticide, but
we're contributing overall to global warming and vehicle emissions.

Yes, Kay you have raised a point that many of us are not aware of...the cost
in pollution of the delivering of the produce from afar. It is a subtle
point but well taken.


But if I were a lobbyist for the non-organic farming industry, the
amount of travel involved for organic produce is just what I would be
talking about loud and wide ... so .. I don't know.

Yes, I don't know all the truths about this either but I do know that
helping the local organic farmer by firstly-finding him/her and supporting
the process by buying their products. That will be a start. Starting is one
of the most important things...just start! Then after 'the start' more
farmers will be encouraged to follow the lead. It will not be easy, but it
will be worth it!

Note: One of out local certified organic farmers produces lettuce too large
to put in the standard (24 per case) box. He sells them at what we call Farm
Gate-the farmers doorstep market. It's worth the drive...

Perhaps the demand
for organic produce, at present being fulfilled by imported stuff, will
encourage more organic producers in this country and in the longer run
reduce the need for imports.
I'm not sure if this response is truly Canadian or our American
cousins...but..YUP!

Kay, thank you for your concerns.
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada

On 6/6/04 4:00 PM, in article , "David
Hill" wrote:

"......... lets say that we have a vegetable that is sprayed with a
pesticide. The pesticide says that after 15 days it gets degraded to non
toxic elements..............."

What this in fact means is that the pesticide will be inactive within about
7 days, the rest of the time is the safety barrier that the company has to
have to allow for people using it stronger than it should be, for adverse
weather conditions etc that may slow down the plants metabolism.

As for washing the veg/fruit this does nothing for systemic sprays, but
with the re introduction of old so called organic sprays then washing is
good as most will remain on the surface.
Also a lot of fruit is either sprayed or dipped after picking to maintain
condition in the box during transit and storage.

Finally...when it comes to buying from local "certified" organic growers
(and many will say that anyone in the UK trying to make a living from
growing Organic should be certified),

It is very tough to grow produce organically and especially to be
certified. I quote what you wrote "(and many will say that anyone in the UK
trying to make a living from growing Organic should be certified)". Why do
you say that?
The reason I am asking is because as you know there are those who will
cheat. Cheating destroys the integrity of those who follow the rules. Being
certified means just that 'being certified'. Unless a farmer is certified by
his peers then the farm is not certified. I do understand your point but its
the integrity of the 'decision' that is at question here.

the organic prices are falling every
year and several large organic growers in the UK have given up as they can't
make it pay any longer even using foreign labour for harvesting.

They gave up...tough is tough. Yes...its tough. How much certified product
have you purchase recently? Anything worthwhile is worth supporting.

This is largely due to the imported "Organic" produce being imported from
low wage economies.

It is easy to blame someone else. I would say, "I do it all the time" but
then Franz would take me to task...

Where Spain was one of these a few years ago, now the Spanish growers are
having to use imported labour (Mostly Moroccan) as the Spanish workers are
now to expensive to employ.
In the UK it is getting very hard to find British people to work on the land
and every year many thousands of foreign workers come here to harvest fruit
and veg.
This reminds me of the 50's when we brought in West Indians because the
British wouldn't do jobs like bus driving etc.

Yes, there is this and that that creates a challenge almost all the time.
But, the UK has certified organic growers....support them! Give them a
chance. I tell you this and I haven't even met any of them. I hope they have
the same attitude that I have...but no...they need an income and some
satisfaction that they are doing the right thing.
When you buy from them, you can be assured that you are doing the right
thing. Ask them if they compost and if they don't, give them my email
address. (I am serious...get them to email me...I want to communicate
with them...I love company).
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada

"Nick Apostolakis" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:

Is that just an opinion, or can you back it up with quantitative
evidence?
I have some evidence to the contrary, because every now and again
I
ask for a water test report from my water company, just for fun.
None
of those reports have ever indicated any problems arising from
pesticide residues in the water.

analysis in your local area of course not.
on the other hand if i speak of my own area i could say a lot.

What is it that you could say of the pesticide content of the water
supply in your area?

And I believe the contrary.
I am afraid beliefs are irrelevant. Do you have access to an
analysis
which might back up your belief?

i was not speaking in strict local terms since the exhaust gases (of
the
transport vehicles) is not located in one area either.

I was not thinking in strictly local terms either. A typical heavy
lorry would release somewhere in the region of 1 lb of carbon dioxide
into the air per mile travelled, wherever it may be.

i think in more general terms of the polution of the environment

So was I

and not
by just poluting the local enviromnent of the production area. for a
example an industry of fertilisers (or pesticides) has a lot in
common
with any other chemical industry and tha includes the polution of
the
enviroment it causes.

in my local area one of the most common problems is the drop of the
pressure (due to intense cultivation of the soil) of the aquifers
enough
for the sea to come in and procude water with high levels of
conductivity and so our water ends up salty. we have other problems
with
our soils too but this is one of the most promiment.

In talking of the over use of the water supply, you are going a
little far from the topic, which was the use of pesticides.

i do not know any water analysis test about pesticide traces in
water
but that is relevant with the type of the aquifer anyway so it may
or
may not be very important.

If I remember correctly it was you who brought up the pollution of
water by pesticides. Are you now changing your mind?

Franz

Nick Apostolakis wrote:

i do not know any water analysis test about pesticide traces in water
but that is relevant with the type of the aquifer anyway so it may or
may not be very important.


by the way i saw just today a water analysis for an area near my own.
guess what. they found all the mainstream pollutants nitrates, Ar,
pesticide traces and all the good stuff.
as i say above everything depends from the aquifer type. if it is under
pressure you may get away with it. if it is an open aquifer then you
have a problem.

--



--------------------------------------------------------------
Nick Apostolakis
e-mail:
Web Site: http://agriroot.aua.gr/~nickapos
--------------------------------------------------------------

"gary davis" wrote in message
...
On 6/6/04 1:28 AM, in article ,
"Kay
Easton" wrote:

In article , gary davis
writes

Worried about sprays? And so you should. We all should. Eliminate
the
doubt and support your local certified organic farmer.

That's just our problem! In the UK we don't have that many
certified
organic growers,
Well, it is not surprising that you do not have many organic
growers! It is
very difficult to become an organic grower because they are unable
(by
regulation) to use 'chemicals' that are harmful to the soil. The
rules of
organic farming makes it tough for farmers! They cannot just simply
plant
seeds and watch them grow. They are not allowed to use chemicals
that kill
all vegetation so they must find a way to do that on their
own...suppress
the weeds, eliminate them and still find time to plant. It is a
tough time
for them. But should they have the 'jam' to follow it through it
bodes well
for the future of vitamin rich produce.

Do you have access to experimental results which show that more
vitamins are found in organically grown vegetables than "ordinary"
vegetables? I thought the vitamins were made inside the vegetable.

[snip]

Franz

"gary davis" wrote in message
...
On 6/6/04 4:00 PM, in article ,
"David
Hill" wrote:

"......... lets say that we have a vegetable that is sprayed with
a
pesticide. The pesticide says that after 15 days it gets degraded
to non
toxic elements..............."

What this in fact means is that the pesticide will be inactive
within about
7 days, the rest of the time is the safety barrier that the
company has to
have to allow for people using it stronger than it should be, for
adverse
weather conditions etc that may slow down the plants metabolism.

As for washing the veg/fruit this does nothing for systemic
sprays, but
with the re introduction of old so called organic sprays then
washing is
good as most will remain on the surface.
Also a lot of fruit is either sprayed or dipped after picking to
maintain
condition in the box during transit and storage.

Finally...when it comes to buying from local "certified" organic
growers
(and many will say that anyone in the UK trying to make a living
from
growing Organic should be certified),

It is very tough to grow produce organically and especially to
be
certified. I quote what you wrote "(and many will say that anyone in
the UK
trying to make a living from growing Organic should be certified)".
Why do
you say that?

I think the main reason is that it is not particularly economic to
produce organic foods in the UK. That is why ours is imported from
countries with a poor underclass ripe for exploitation.

[snip]

Franz

"Nick Apostolakis" wrote in message
...
Nick Apostolakis wrote:

i do not know any water analysis test about pesticide traces in
water
but that is relevant with the type of the aquifer anyway so it may
or
may not be very important.


by the way i saw just today a water analysis for an area near my
own.
guess what. they found all the mainstream pollutants nitrates, Ar,
pesticide traces and all the good stuff.

Please quote the concentrations found and compare them with the
legally limiting concentrations.

as i say above everything depends from the aquifer type. if it is
under
pressure you may get away with it. if it is an open aquifer then you
have a problem.

Franz

On 6/6/04 1:28 AM, in article , "Kay
Easton" wrote:

In article , gary davis
writes

Worried about sprays? And so you should. We all should. Eliminate the
doubt and support your local certified organic farmer.

That's just our problem! In the UK we don't have that many certified
organic growers,
Well, it is not surprising that you do not have many organic growers! It is
very difficult to become an organic grower because they are unable (by
regulation) to use 'chemicals' that are harmful to the soil. The rules of
organic farming makes it tough for farmers! They cannot just simply plant
seeds and watch them grow. They are not allowed to use chemicals that kill
all vegetation so they must find a way to do that on their own...suppress
the weeds, eliminate them and still find time to plant. It is a tough time
for them. But should they have the 'jam' to follow it through it bodes well
for the future of vitamin rich produce.
The reason I say this is because it is the worms in the ground that do
the work. They produce 'plant food'...food plants can utilize. Killing
weeds with chemicals upsets the balance...and the worms are not fed. If they
are not fed, they die.
Chemical fertilizers feed plants but there is no food for the
worms...without worms the ground becomes infertile. It then requires more
chemical fertilizers...what happens should chemical fertilizers become
unavailable? We live in a volatile world, it could happen. Then what?
In Canada, were I live, certified organic farmers are not even allowed
to put manure of any kind on their fields until it has been composted. I
don't necessarily agree with this but those are the rules! And they are
followed by the certified organic growers here! Tough rules, tougher
farmers!
They are motivated to follow the rules and set them themselves! Self
monitored! They know the value of many things including worms! They feed
them...the worms: chemical fertilizers, which they won't use, don't (feed
the worms) thus the composted manures. Don't you just love their commitment?
They are nuts about this...drives me crazy sometimes...g

and a lot of our organic produce comes from spain and
further afield - so we may not get a personal dose of pesticide, but
we're contributing overall to global warming and vehicle emissions.

Yes, Kay you have raised a point that many of us are not aware of...the cost
in pollution of the delivering of the produce from afar. It is a subtle
point but well taken.


But if I were a lobbyist for the non-organic farming industry, the
amount of travel involved for organic produce is just what I would be
talking about loud and wide ... so .. I don't know.

Yes, I don't know all the truths about this either but I do know that
helping the local organic farmer by firstly-finding him/her and supporting
the process by buying their products. That will be a start. Starting is one
of the most important things...just start! Then after 'the start' more
farmers will be encouraged to follow the lead. It will not be easy, but it
will be worth it!

Note: One of out local certified organic farmers produces lettuce too large
to put in the standard (24 per case) box. He sells them at what we call Farm
Gate-the farmers doorstep market. It's worth the drive...

Perhaps the demand
for organic produce, at present being fulfilled by imported stuff, will
encourage more organic producers in this country and in the longer run
reduce the need for imports.
I'm not sure if this response is truly Canadian or our American
cousins...but..YUP!

Kay, thank you for your concerns.
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada