In article . 11,
Victoria Clare writes:
| (Nick Maclaren) wrote in
| :
|
| | If you expect your deck to last you 30 years, durability is an
| | issue. I am not sure how many people plan garden features to last
| | that long (urglers excepted perhaps!).
|
| If you expect it to last 30 MONTHS, it is an issue. Few untreated
| timbers will last that long in contact with damp soil.
|
| I have untreated hazel hurdles in my garden that has lasted that long (from
| green admittedly, but really thin bits)!

What soil? They last quite well on peat, and not too badly on a
few others. I should have said that I was referring to most of
the more fertile lowland soils.

I cut some pea sticks from a hazel bush one May or June, and they
had rotted to uselessness by the next spring - even those NOT in
contact with the soil!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message . 11
from Victoria Clare contains these words:


If you mostly sit in your garden in the summer, slipperyness in December
may not be an issue. If you prefer to avoid the heat and spend a lot of
time outside in winter, it may be more of a problem.

Hm; I suspect decks in the UK are mostly popular with people who never
actually go out in their garden.

I was at a summer opening of a "weekend cottage" garden whose
immensely rich owners had constructed a pond with deck walk-ways and a
pier for feeding the fish, and a conservatory where they were serving
teas. Between the conservatory and the pond, was a wrap-around
smooth-plank deck big enough to hold a dance on.

Rain started, and within an instant the entire wooden deckways were
slippier than greased ice. The owner immediately ordered the visitors
off the decking for their own safety, and it was out of bounds for the
rest of the visit. He said it's completely unusable except when
bone-dry; and solidly constructed in tropical hardwood to last a
lifetime :~}

Janet.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message . 11
from Victoria Clare contains these words:


If you mostly sit in your garden in the summer, slipperyness in December
may not be an issue. If you prefer to avoid the heat and spend a lot of
time outside in winter, it may be more of a problem.

Hm; I suspect decks in the UK are mostly popular with people who never
actually go out in their garden.

That certainly doesn't apply to me!

I was at a summer opening of a "weekend cottage" garden whose
immensely rich owners had constructed a pond with deck walk-ways and a
pier for feeding the fish, and a conservatory where they were serving
teas. Between the conservatory and the pond, was a wrap-around
smooth-plank deck big enough to hold a dance on.

Rain started, and within an instant the entire wooden deckways were
slippier than greased ice. The owner immediately ordered the visitors
off the decking for their own safety, and it was out of bounds for the
rest of the visit. He said it's completely unusable except when
bone-dry; and solidly constructed in tropical hardwood to last a
lifetime :~}

Yes, and freshly dug earth makes a rotten path, as do badly laid slabs or
overlong grass, and rose bushes adjacent to a narrow path can be hazardous
and ... and ...

The point is that *any* surface can be unsuitable for walking on in a garden
in one or more sets of conditions, and a sensible owner will take
precautions accordingly. Decking is no better or worse than any other
surface if treated properly.

--
Brian
"I know about kittens and knitting. Will that do?"

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:01:20 +0100, Kay
wrote:

Frogleg writes

was surprised by the extreme negative article and comments. Decking
is certainly an improvement over mud and boggy spots, making a useful
seating (or walking, as above) area where garden plants are either
difficult to grow or not wanted.

It's also lethally slippery over a large part of the year.

You left out what I quoted mentioning paint with sand specifically
designed to ensure a non-slippery surface.

No one is arguing that all gardens should be replaced by decking. I
was just puzzled by the totally negative tone about the whole concept.
Gardening certainly allows a wide variety of styles. Cottage and
topiary and rock gardens are all reasonable choices. Why not a bit of
decking?

In article , Frogleg
writes
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 14:01:20 +0100, Kay
wrote:

Frogleg writes

was surprised by the extreme negative article and comments. Decking
is certainly an improvement over mud and boggy spots, making a useful
seating (or walking, as above) area where garden plants are either
difficult to grow or not wanted.

It's also lethally slippery over a large part of the year.

You left out what I quoted mentioning paint with sand specifically
designed to ensure a non-slippery surface.

I did indeed. I wasn't trying to argue against decking in this
circumstance, I was trying to answer your comment that you were
surprised by the negativity, and, knowing that you are american and may
not be familiar with our climate, explain to you where this negativity
comes from.

No one is arguing that all gardens should be replaced by decking. I
was just puzzled by the totally negative tone about the whole concept.

That is precisely what I was trying to explain.

Gardening certainly allows a wide variety of styles. Cottage and
topiary and rock gardens are all reasonable choices. Why not a bit of
decking?

For the reasons I said.

Look - I try to explain something, to cater for your possible
unfamiliarity, and you jump down my throat. IS that how you would like
your attempts to be helpful treated?
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

(Nick Maclaren) wrote in
:

| If you expect your deck to last you 30 years, durability is an
| issue. I am not sure how many people plan garden features to last
| that long (urglers excepted perhaps!).

If you expect it to last 30 MONTHS, it is an issue. Few untreated
timbers will last that long in contact with damp soil.


I have untreated hazel hurdles in my garden that has lasted that long (from
green admittedly, but really thin bits)!

That wet untreated wood eventually rots isn't an argument that all timber
decking is inappropriate for the UK climate, (which seems to be what
Frogleg is asking).

Decking can be installed on top of paving slabs, concrete, gravel or with
just treated bearers contacting the soil. If the ground is sloping, there
may be very little direct ground contact at all, even for the bearers.

The deck itself can help protect the bearers from the damp, even if laid
directly on soil.

In steeply sloping locations, a deck can be the only option - paving is
simply not possible if your garden has a 1 in three slope. I think the
anti-decking thing has perhaps been a bit overstated in this group.

My neighbour has a deck, and it's gorgeous: one day I shall have one too.

Victoria
--
gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:


Many of the opponents are posting from the west, where the rainfall
is also 44 inches, but without your high winter evaporation.

Huh!

There's a met. office weather station on the other side of Brodick bay
which measures 70 " pa. Our side of the bay is a bit drier (we often
watch it raining there while we're in sun; just a quirk of topography)
Considerably drier than our previous abode on the mainland, where we
were the ones always getting dumped on; 80" per year.

Fort William is even wetter.

Janet. (Arran)

In article , Frogleg
writes
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 13:21:39 +0100, Kay
wrote:

Frogleg writes

I'm familiar with (some of) your climate. Interestingly enough, I
looked up average annual rainfall figures for Norfolk, VA and Norfolk,
UK. Virginia: 44inches. UK: 23 inches. Of course that doesn't tell the
whole story, but believe me, I've experience with mildew, moss, and
mud. :-)

I'm not familiar with Norfolk VA. Norfolk UK is on the drier and sunnier
east of the country.


I gather from the thread that the objections are based on decking
being 'trendy' and non-traditional, popularized by one or more TV
shows, and over-adopted by too many people.

Over adopted in the context of a country where for many months of the
year any fallen rain does not evaporate for a considerable time. If we
had heavy rain which dried quickly in hot sun, decking would be
admirable. Decking is not suitable where you have periods of drizzle
interrupted by periods of cloud. Yes, you can apply anti-slip methods,
but many people don't even think of that. Given that decking is being
brought into prominence by many TV garden make-over shows which are
designed for people with no experience of outdoor design, it is well
worth putting the opposite view, and suggesting that they should think
of the practicalities.

Suppose in the southern US you were being deluged by TV shows suggesting
instant makeovers involving laying nice green turf, and you had a steady
stream of people wandering into rec.gardening asking where to get the
cheapest turf, wouldn't you feel inclined to probe the reasons for their
choice and mention words like 'watering'?

I don't think the objections stem from it being 'non-traditional'. UK
gardening has never been afraid to adopt new ideas, as can be seen by
the diversity of gardens across the country, and we do, of course, have
a long history of gardening characterised by repeated sweeping of new
fashions, for example as popularised by Capability Brown or Gertrude
Jekyll.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

In article . 11,
Victoria Clare writes:
| (Nick Maclaren) wrote in
| :
|
| | If you expect your deck to last you 30 years, durability is an
| | issue. I am not sure how many people plan garden features to last
| | that long (urglers excepted perhaps!).
|
| If you expect it to last 30 MONTHS, it is an issue. Few untreated
| timbers will last that long in contact with damp soil.
|
| I have untreated hazel hurdles in my garden that has lasted that long (from
| green admittedly, but really thin bits)!

What soil? They last quite well on peat, and not too badly on a
few others. I should have said that I was referring to most of
the more fertile lowland soils.

I cut some pea sticks from a hazel bush one May or June, and they
had rotted to uselessness by the next spring - even those NOT in
contact with the soil!


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

The message . 11
from Victoria Clare contains these words:


If you mostly sit in your garden in the summer, slipperyness in December
may not be an issue. If you prefer to avoid the heat and spend a lot of
time outside in winter, it may be more of a problem.

Hm; I suspect decks in the UK are mostly popular with people who never
actually go out in their garden.

I was at a summer opening of a "weekend cottage" garden whose
immensely rich owners had constructed a pond with deck walk-ways and a
pier for feeding the fish, and a conservatory where they were serving
teas. Between the conservatory and the pond, was a wrap-around
smooth-plank deck big enough to hold a dance on.

Rain started, and within an instant the entire wooden deckways were
slippier than greased ice. The owner immediately ordered the visitors
off the decking for their own safety, and it was out of bounds for the
rest of the visit. He said it's completely unusable except when
bone-dry; and solidly constructed in tropical hardwood to last a
lifetime :~}

Janet.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message . 11
from Victoria Clare contains these words:


If you mostly sit in your garden in the summer, slipperyness in December
may not be an issue. If you prefer to avoid the heat and spend a lot of
time outside in winter, it may be more of a problem.

Hm; I suspect decks in the UK are mostly popular with people who never
actually go out in their garden.

That certainly doesn't apply to me!

I was at a summer opening of a "weekend cottage" garden whose
immensely rich owners had constructed a pond with deck walk-ways and a
pier for feeding the fish, and a conservatory where they were serving
teas. Between the conservatory and the pond, was a wrap-around
smooth-plank deck big enough to hold a dance on.

Rain started, and within an instant the entire wooden deckways were
slippier than greased ice. The owner immediately ordered the visitors
off the decking for their own safety, and it was out of bounds for the
rest of the visit. He said it's completely unusable except when
bone-dry; and solidly constructed in tropical hardwood to last a
lifetime :~}

Yes, and freshly dug earth makes a rotten path, as do badly laid slabs or
overlong grass, and rose bushes adjacent to a narrow path can be hazardous
and ... and ...

The point is that *any* surface can be unsuitable for walking on in a garden
in one or more sets of conditions, and a sensible owner will take
precautions accordingly. Decking is no better or worse than any other
surface if treated properly.

--
Brian
"I know about kittens and knitting. Will that do?"

On 6/4/04 10:21 AM, in article ,
"martin" wrote:

"Flippin' deck
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...231770,00.html
Jane Perrone delights in the demise of a certain garden fad, and has
some advice on putting right its inherent wrongs

Friday June 4, 2004

A blackbird on the wing, taking in an aerial view of an average UK
street, has probably noticed a colour shift in the past five years.
Our once green and pleasant land has been invaded by a hideous scourge
that poses a threat to all that is good about gardening: wooden
decking.

A story in today's Telegraph details how a retired couple from
Northumberland objected when their neighbour turned his garden into a
"wooden fortress" with the addition of a "giant deck". The story
pushed all the right buttons for the average Telegraph reader -
feuding neighbours, a former Royal Navy petty officer, an antique
dealer, local planning officers and listed property. I found my own
buttons pushed, however, by the idea that anyone could believe that
covering over a perfectly good bit of garden with a large wooden
structure where one is likely to spend, oh, hours a year enjoying the
sunshine is anything other than an expensive folly.

Decking is at the heart of what I call the "Ground Force approach" to
gardening, the idea - promulgated by the likes of the garden makeover
show's Charlie Dimmock - that the way to the perfect garden is a trip
to the nearest out-of-town DIY megastore for an expensive pile of wood
and a violent shade of woodstain. The result? A sterile environment
that is useless for garden wildlife, becomes a slippery hazard after a
few months of neglect in our watery climate and is often out of scale
with its surroundings.

The trouble is I am an allotment gardener at heart, a breed resigned
to the ranks of the terminally uncool by EastEnders' downtrodden man
of the soil, Arthur Fowler. Gardens shouldn't be viewed simply as an
"an extra room" that can undergo a miraculous lifestyle makeover akin
to slapping on a few coats of misty buff on the walls or buying a new
sofa.

Good gardens evolve. They aren't constructed overnight. When I see a
garden, my thoughts turn to how many plants I could pack in to provide
both colour and food for my kitchen and for garden visitors like bees
and butterflies. I know it will take months to see my ideas through
from preparing the soil, to sowing seed, planting out, weeding and
watering. There's nothing productive or beautiful about a stretch of
bleak wood - it's good for neither herb nor hedgehog.

The good news is that decking - like all fads - is quickly joining
laminate flooring, inflatable chairs and luminous socks in the ranks
of fashion has-beens.

If you've already fallen under the costly spell of Ground Force, think
about redeeming yourself and your garden by renting an allotment
(average cost: £10-20 a year), digging a wildlife pond (average cost:
about a tenner) or planting a wildflower meadow (average cost: a few
packets of seeds). The decking backlash has begun."

AMEN!
A very interesting and honest post. Well done...laying it on the line!
Gary
Fort Langley BC
Canada

To reply please remove...yoursocks...

On 9 Jun 2004 11:42:07 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

Frogleg writes:
|
| I'm familiar with (some of) your climate. Interestingly enough, I
| looked up average annual rainfall figures for Norfolk, VA and Norfolk,
| UK. Virginia: 44inches. UK: 23 inches. Of course that doesn't tell the
| whole story, but believe me, I've experience with mildew, moss, and
| mud. :-)

Now look up the evaporation in winter. I should be surprised if
you have less than ten times ours even in places like Cambridge
and Norfolk - yes, really.

Norfolk is one of the driest areas of the UK,

I just went to look up figures for Seattle, since that area is known
for rain, and found this:

"Seattle has a well-deserved wet and rainy reputation, perpetuated
not least by the self-depreciating humor of its citizens. It is a
pertinent point that the 36 inches of annual rainfall received by
Seattle each year is less than the annual rainfall of places like New
York. It is just that the rain comes down over a longer period--often
precipitating as a slow drizzle, begrudgingly deposited by low lying
clouds that seem to hang around far longer than necessary to get the
job done.

....Yet these mists and rain keep Seattle cleaner and greener than most
cities of a similar size. It takes only a day of sunshine to shake
the winter blues. The city sparkles, the land lies green and
beckoning across the bays, rivers and waterways as the landscape is
transformed from gray monotones into the glittering hues..."

So it's not the rain, but the *manner* of the rain. I included the 2nd
paragraph because I read many similar descriptions of/from the UK.

I only chose Norfolk because it was a handy name comparison. Had no
clue yours was one of the drier areas.

In article ,
Frogleg writes:
|
| So it's not the rain, but the *manner* of the rain. I included the 2nd
| paragraph because I read many similar descriptions of/from the UK.

Yes, precisely.

Even more important than the manner of the rain is the evaporation
aspect. Cambridge and Norfolk, England, are 17 degrees south of
the Arctic circle, Seattle is 21 and Norfolk, Virginia, is 32. As
the insolation in winter (ignoring absorption) is proportional to
the square of that distance, and the absorption is MUCH higher here
than in Virginia, you see why I said what I said about evaporation.

| I only chose Norfolk because it was a handy name comparison. Had no
| clue yours was one of the drier areas.

Just like Cambridge, Massachusetts, and here :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Janet Baraclough wrote in
:

Rain started, and within an instant the entire wooden deckways were
slippier than greased ice. The owner immediately ordered the visitors
off the decking for their own safety, and it was out of bounds for the
rest of the visit. He said it's completely unusable except when
bone-dry; and solidly constructed in tropical hardwood to last a
lifetime :~}

And yet, we make other things for wet environments from wood. Duckboards
for punts and dinghies, for example. I would commend fine sand mixed into
some varnish or stain to that deck owner: it worked for my Mirror dinghy!

My lawns are pretty damn slippery when wet - and my lawn isn't flat, so
it's easier to fall off of. It has plenty of nice boulders to bang your
elbow on too.

I'm sure decking can be badly designed/implemented, but so can most things.

Victoria
--
gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--