Kay wrote in message ...
In article , hugh
] writes
In message , Kay
writes
[...]
[Kay:] I'm prepared to accept a need for fertiliser application for food
production. But it's not something I want to do for purely recreational
purposes.
[...]
[Hugh:] The levels of nutrients in our waterways come from agriculture,
precisely the use of fertilisers of which you approve, or at least you
accept.

No - I'm prepared to accept if it is necessary. I've not made my mind
up on that.

Well go away and decide what you mean b4 going into print.

I meant precisely what I said. I'm sorry that I didn't say what you
wanted me to say in order to suit your attack.

No need to apologize: he can manage perfectly well without accurate data.

Mike.

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , hugh
] writes
In message , Kay
writes
In article , hugh
] writes

OK, the OP doesn't want a wildflower meadow. But the more we encourage
a
style of gardening dependent on high levels of fertiliser, the more we
contribute to high levels of nutrient in our wild countryside and in
our
waterways, which is damaging the diversity of our countryside.

snip

Gardens and countryside are intermixed,
waterways go through both. Your personal use of fertiliser may not have
much effect, but I was talking about an overall philosophy of gardening
which regards regular fertiliser, pesticide and weedkiller use as a
necessity. If you read what I said, I was suggesting that a dislike of
this approach might be why people were suggesting that a pure grass lawn
was not necessarily to be desired.

If that is your philosophy, then, presumably, you are also careful not to
grow in your garden any alien or hybrid plants (including most clovers)
which might escape into the wild, hence risking 'damaging' the diversity of
the countryside?

In article , BAC
writes


If that is your philosophy, then, presumably, you are also careful not to
grow in your garden any alien or hybrid plants (including most clovers)
which might escape into the wild, hence risking 'damaging' the diversity of
the countryside?


You seem to be saying that, unless one embraces a totally 'green'
lifestyle, one should encourage a total disregard for the environment.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

hugh ] wrote in message ...
In message , Mike Lyle
writes
Alan Gould wrote in message
...
In article , Japmark
writes
This year I have been overrun with clover in the lawn.
What is the best way to get rid?

[...]
IMHO the notion of a 100 percent fine grass lawn is an illusion put out
by sellers of commercial lawn care preparations. It is seldom achieved
in reality, even by professional green-keepers.

This is absolutely sound. We've been conned into thinking there's
something desirable about a pure grass lawn, when in fact it takes
only a small shift in attitude to see one as a rather sterile expanse
of "green concrete". I think a daisy-free lawn, for example, is
depressing.

And I think the same about neat and tidy regimented bedding plants, but
I don't go round insulting those who prefer them and I don't berate then
for not growing thistles, a most beautiful plant, instead.

Each to his own.

I hope I didn't berate anybody, or say anything insulting. And the bit
of my message you snipped out said I could see why a traditional tidy
lawn might be more desirable.

Mike.

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hugh ] wrote in message ...
In message , BAC
writes

"Japmark" wrote in message
...
The reason for my question was because I have too much clover in my
opinion.
Half of my front lawn is almost pure clover, very little grass, therefore
I
was looking for something to control it.


And it is your opinion which counts, because it is your garden. Some people
like clover in the lawn, others don't, and vive la difference :-)


Exactly, it's just that every time someone asks for help on clover or
weed control in lawns they get deluged with the same posts from the same
people telling them what they should like.

"Deluged"? I'm not sure that half a dozen messages constitute a
deluge. Scarcely even a drizzle: more a light sprinkling, I'd say.

Same question, same answers: nothing wrong with that. If the OP hadn't
wanted a discussion around the subject he'd presumably have gone
straight to the garden centre instead of posting in a discussion
group.

Mike.

In message , Mike Lyle
writes
hugh ] wrote in message
...
In message , BAC
writes

"Japmark" wrote in message
...
The reason for my question was because I have too much clover in my
opinion.
Half of my front lawn is almost pure clover, very little grass, therefore
I
was looking for something to control it.


And it is your opinion which counts, because it is your garden. Some people
like clover in the lawn, others don't, and vive la difference :-)


Exactly, it's just that every time someone asks for help on clover or
weed control in lawns they get deluged with the same posts from the same
people telling them what they should like.

"Deluged"? I'm not sure that half a dozen messages constitute a
deluge. Scarcely even a drizzle: more a light sprinkling, I'd say.

Same question, same answers: nothing wrong with that. If the OP hadn't
wanted a discussion around the subject he'd presumably have gone
straight to the garden centre instead of posting in a discussion
group.

Mike.
The OP asked for advice on removing clover from the lawn, not for a
discussion on the desirability or otherwise of covering it with weeds.
If you want to discuss that, start your own thread, then those of us
who are not interested can avoid it.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

In message , Kay
writes
In article , hugh
] writes

Good, and the OP prefers a lawn without it, so why shouldn't he have
it so? No-
one is telling you to get rid of your clover are they?

I suppose one driver may be the desire not to encourage people to use
large amounts of herbicide and fertiliser. Our wild flowers are already
suffering because the huge amounts of fertiliser we use mean that the
grosser weeds like nettles and docks flourish, and the plants that have
adapted to live in poorer soils don't get a chance.

Standard advice on establishing a wild flower meadow is start by
reducing the fertility. Several years of no fertiliser, regular mowing,
and take away all cuttings.

OK, the OP doesn't want a wildflower meadow. But the more we encourage a
style of gardening dependent on high levels of fertiliser, the more we
contribute to high levels of nutrient in our wild countryside and in our
waterways, which is damaging the diversity of our countryside.

I'm prepared to accept a need for fertiliser application for food
production. But it's not something I want to do for purely recreational
purposes.
What high levels of fertiliser? So far this year, one dose in the spring
of fertiliser/moss killer/weed killer and that's it apart from 1/2 ton
of horticultural sharp sand. Oh yes and one squirt of spot weed killer
to remove a piece of clover which presumably had blown in from someone
else's weed patch.

The levels of nutrients in our waterways come from agriculture,
precisely the use of fertilisers of which you approve, or at least you
accept.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

"Howard Neil" wrote in message
...
hugh wrote:

In message , Howard
Neil writes

Japmark wrote:

This year I have been overrun with clover in the lawn.


You are fortunate. The clover will fix nitrogen from the air and save
you from having to apply fertilizer.

The benefit to the grass is minimal.

That is not the experience of livestock farmers who deliberately sow
clover in their grass fields.

********
To benefit the animals for whom the grass and clover was sown, - to whit, -
short grass for sheep which nibble, longer grass for oxen who wrap their
tongues around the tufts and pull them off, to be swallowed and put into
stomach No.1 which stores it until the animal can sit down, regurgitate it
and chew its cud , so to pass the cud into the next stomach. Clover is good
feed, tasty for the cattle, - who like it, - and is said to help milk
production.
Doug.
********

See:-

http://www.fao.org/docrep/V9968E/v9968e06.htm

http://www.fencepost.com/dairy/exper...dairy/expert/r
epository/20040517_163028_Establishing_White_Clover.xml
http://www.dpw.wageningen-ur.nl/biob/EDUCAT/msc302.htm

--
Howard Neil

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Japmark
writes
This year I have been overrun with clover in the lawn.
What is the best way to get rid?

Clover is a natural companion plant to grass and it enjoys the same
management as grass. As others have already pointed out, clover releases
nitrogen into the soil each time it is cut off. Our lawn consists of
about 70 percent grass, 20 percent clover and 10 percent wild plants of
types which thrive in lawn management. That gives us a very suitable
family leisure and recreational area, it also acts as a wildlife haven
when we are not using it. We are very happy with it.

IMHO the notion of a 100 percent fine grass lawn is an illusion put out
by sellers of commercial lawn care preparations. It is seldom achieved
in reality, even by professional green-keepers.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

********
Sack immediately all the green-keepers of the Ancient Scottish golf courses
plus those 'wilderness' putting greens in
Georgia U.S,of A. Also the groundsmen who dug the hole at the penalty spot
and put our national Team out of the competition. (Don't blame that bloke
with the hideous tattoo across his neck , - he wuz robbed!)
They've All got it all wrong! (:^)
Doug.
********

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , hugh
] writes

Good, and the OP prefers a lawn without it, so why shouldn't he have it
so? No-
one is telling you to get rid of your clover are they?

(Big Snip)

********

Has anyone ever tried :- - Heavy rake-up, : ---(Then )---Close mow, :
Heavy rake-up, : Heavy sowing with fresh new grass seed, : light tamping, :
Gentle water spraying , : Light tamping.
?
Worth a try, - doncherthink?.
B.T.W, :- For the best looking lawn for light use and no children, use
Australian Browntop and Australian Fescue grass-seeds in equal
quantities. They are not cheap.
Another BTW, :- I had the most beautiful lawn on the estate. Then in my
ignorance I wormed it. They scampered up to the top , wriggling all over
the lawn and I shovelled them all into a small bucket. and they perished
there.
Within a fortnight the grass went brown and the lawn became just like the
mudflats in Morecambe bay.
Doug.

********

"Douglas" wrote in message
...

"Howard Neil" wrote in message
...
hugh wrote:

In message ,
Howard
Neil writes

Japmark wrote:

This year I have been overrun with clover in the lawn.


You are fortunate. The clover will fix nitrogen from the air and save
you from having to apply fertilizer.

The benefit to the grass is minimal.

That is not the experience of livestock farmers who deliberately sow
clover in their grass fields.

********
To benefit the animals for whom the grass and clover was sown, - to
whit, -
short grass for sheep which nibble, longer grass for oxen who wrap their
tongues around the tufts and pull them off, to be swallowed and put into
stomach No.1 which stores it until the animal can sit down, regurgitate it
and chew its cud , so to pass the cud into the next stomach. Clover is
good
feed, tasty for the cattle, - who like it, - and is said to help milk
production.

You can have too much of a good thing, however, in which case there is a
risk of clover bloat. Not that it's got anything to do with domestic lawns,
of course.

hugh ] wrote in message ...
In message , Mike Lyle
writes
hugh ] wrote in message
...
In message , BAC
writes

"Japmark" wrote in message
...
The reason for my question was because I have too much clover in my
opinion.
Half of my front lawn is almost pure clover, very little grass, therefore
I
was looking for something to control it.


And it is your opinion which counts, because it is your garden. Some people
like clover in the lawn, others don't, and vive la difference :-)


Exactly, it's just that every time someone asks for help on clover or
weed control in lawns they get deluged with the same posts from the same
people telling them what they should like.

"Deluged"? I'm not sure that half a dozen messages constitute a
deluge. Scarcely even a drizzle: more a light sprinkling, I'd say.

Same question, same answers: nothing wrong with that. If the OP hadn't
wanted a discussion around the subject he'd presumably have gone
straight to the garden centre instead of posting in a discussion
group.

Mike.
The OP asked for advice on removing clover from the lawn, not for a
discussion on the desirability or otherwise of covering it with weeds.
If you want to discuss that, start your own thread, then those of us
who are not interested can avoid it.

Let's not get obsessive here! I'm sorry I wasted your time, and
clearly irritated you. The same to the OP, too, if he cares to express
similar sentiments.

Mike.

"BAC" wrote in message t...
"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , hugh
] writes
In message , Kay
writes
In article , hugh
] writes

OK, the OP doesn't want a wildflower meadow. But the more we encourage
a
style of gardening dependent on high levels of fertiliser, the more we
contribute to high levels of nutrient in our wild countryside and in
our
waterways, which is damaging the diversity of our countryside.

snip

Gardens and countryside are intermixed,
waterways go through both. Your personal use of fertiliser may not have
much effect, but I was talking about an overall philosophy of gardening
which regards regular fertiliser, pesticide and weedkiller use as a
necessity. If you read what I said, I was suggesting that a dislike of
this approach might be why people were suggesting that a pure grass lawn
was not necessarily to be desired.

If that is your philosophy, then, presumably, you are also careful not to
grow in your garden any alien or hybrid plants (including most clovers)
which might escape into the wild, hence risking 'damaging' the diversity of
the countryside?

Kay has spoken sensibly for herself; but it's my philosophy, too.
Isn't it impressive how far some athletic readers can jump from
'...suggesting...might be...suggesting that a pure xxx was not
necessarily to be desired'? Your middle name must be Tarzan!

Of _course_ I wouldn't plant alien species which I knew were likely to
establish themselves in numbers in the wild, or interbreed with native
species: I hope you aren't suggesting that _you would_.

But I'll admit that I'm worried by those quotation marks you put round
'damaging': they're not entirely promising. And I don't quite know
what to expect from one who's prepared to drop that unexplained
'including most clovers' into the discussion, so I'm on my guard for
sophistry!

Mike.

In article , BAC
writes


You seem to be saying that, unless one embraces a totally 'green'
lifestyle, one should encourage a total disregard for the environment.

I certainly did not say that, nor did I imply it. You said that gardens and
nature were interlinked and implied that gardeners should not act in a
manner which put at risk the 'diversity of our countryside'. I was enquiring
whether your belief that use of fertilisers and pesticides for recreational
purposes could not be justified,

I don't think I said that it could not be justified. I think I said it
was something I did not want to do.

for that reason, also extended to the
growing of non-native plants for recreational purposes.

Although you did not directly answer my question, I assume from your
response the answer is no, it doesn't.

I also assume from your response that you feel entitled to exercise your own
judgement as to what is and what is not reasonable for you to forego in the
name of preservation of 'the environment', and that you might resent your
decision in the matter being criticised by people who draw their own line on
the subject in a different place. Rightly so, IMO.


I think you are assuming too much and not reading carefully enough.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

In message , BAC
writes

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , BAC
writes


If that is your philosophy, then, presumably, you are also careful not to
grow in your garden any alien or hybrid plants (including most clovers)
which might escape into the wild, hence risking 'damaging' the diversity
of
the countryside?


You seem to be saying that, unless one embraces a totally 'green'
lifestyle, one should encourage a total disregard for the environment.

I certainly did not say that, nor did I imply it. You said that gardens and
nature were interlinked and implied that gardeners should not act in a
manner which put at risk the 'diversity of our countryside'. I was enquiring
whether your belief that use of fertilisers and pesticides for recreational
purposes could not be justified, for that reason, also extended to the
growing of non-native plants for recreational purposes.

Although you did not directly answer my question, I assume from your
response the answer is no, it doesn't.

I also assume from your response that you feel entitled to exercise your own
judgement as to what is and what is not reasonable for you to forego in the
name of preservation of 'the environment', and that you might resent your
decision in the matter being criticised by people who draw their own line on
the subject in a different place. Rightly so, IMO.


I think he actually wants to dictate where everyone's line is drawn. As
far as I am concerned, the only studies I have ever seen on the subject
of excess nutrients in waterways have laid the blame firmly at the door
of agriculture. If someone can produce evidence to the contrary or scale
the level of damage due to *excess* use in domestic gardening I may
change my position. Until then I will continue to use modest amounts of
fertiliser and weedkillers on the area of grass in front of my house to
maintain it as I like it.

Incidentally, I can't imagine anyone wanting to use pesticides on a
lawn.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting