In article , BAC
writes

That Govt. definition is not relevant to this thread because clover is
not considered to be a pest in organic gardening.

But it was by the OP, who wanted rid of it?

By means of a herbicide, not a pesticide. A selective herbicide at that
which would not harm his grass. Grass too may or may not be seen as an
welcome plant depending on the circumstances, but it is not a pest.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Sacha
writes
That Govt. definition is not relevant to this thread because clover is
not considered to be a pest in organic gardening.

But it was by the OP, who wanted rid of it?

And needed a HERBicide. ;-))

Yes, but not one which affected grass.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article ,
Howard Neil writes

I quote from the Pesticides Safety Directorate's glossary (url as above):-

Herbicide
A pesticide used to control unwanted vegetation (weed killer).

That is Govt. agri-speak. In urg, recreational gardening terms are used.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Franz Heymann
writes

Organic gardening is not the be-all and end-all of gardening, and
clover is not the only plant which is a pest under certain
circumstances. Alchemilla mollis is a pest in my garden, as is moss.
There are gardens in which Japanese Knotweed is a pest.
Please read my other posts on the definition of the term "pesticide".

I already have.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
notfranz.
writes

No. You are unfortunately quite wrong. It is not your prerogative
to
redefine technical terms which have a prior definition.
I have now found 9 separate references, originating in the UK and
in
the USA, including Encyclopedia
Brittanica and Wikipedia in which herbicides are defined as
pesticides, and none, except you, which claim the opposite.

Wrong again Franz. I agree with and support Sacha in this matter.

Did you actually read what I had to say?
If so, you are welcome to turn a blind eye to the evidence and be as
wrong as you please.

Franz

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Neil writes

I quote from the Pesticides Safety Directorate's glossary (url as
above):-

Herbicide
A pesticide used to control unwanted vegetation (weed killer).

That is Govt. agri-speak.

No. Since my last post on the issue, I have found 14 references to
the effect that a herbicide is a pesticide, and none to the contrary.

In urg, recreational gardening terms are used.

Sometimes some urglers use wrong terms. We are discussing an instance
of that.

Franz

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
writes

Organic gardening is not the be-all and end-all of gardening, and
clover is not the only plant which is a pest under certain
circumstances. Alchemilla mollis is a pest in my garden, as is
moss.
There are gardens in which Japanese Knotweed is a pest.
Please read my other posts on the definition of the term
"pesticide".

I already have.

Now all you need is to apply some comprehension to what you read.
{:-((
The score is now 14 - 0 references in favour of classing a herbicide
as a pesticide.

Franz

Franz

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 19/7/04 20:21, in article ,
"BAC" wrote:


"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Neil writes

Before you start making up your own definitions, I suggest that you
have
a read of:-

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/appendices.asp?id=744


Which gives:
-----------
Pesticide
Any substance, preparation or organism prepared or used for controlling
any pest. A pesticide product consists of one or more active substances
co-formulated with other materials. Formulated pesticides exist in many
forms, such as solid granules, powders or liquids.
-----------

That Govt. definition is not relevant to this thread because clover is
not considered to be a pest in organic gardening.

But it was by the OP, who wanted rid of it?

And needed a HERBicide. ;-))

Yes, indeed, if he wished to use a poison to remove the unwanted plant
(pest) he would be wasting his time if it was not of the sub-classification
herbicide, and, preferably, one which was actually likely to be effective on
'his' clover. So, the classification might be - poison; pesticide;
herbicide; clovericide :-)

Don't we have sufficient problems with taxonomy of plants?

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , BAC
writes

That Govt. definition is not relevant to this thread because clover is
not considered to be a pest in organic gardening.

But it was by the OP, who wanted rid of it?

By means of a herbicide, not a pesticide. A selective herbicide at that
which would not harm his grass. Grass too may or may not be seen as an
welcome plant depending on the circumstances, but it is not a pest.

I agree that a person wishing to use poison to kill clover in lawns would be
advised to use a selective herbicide, but not that the terms herbicide and
pesticide are mutually exclusive, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

Cars, buses, taxes, trains, and trams are all different, and are customarily
used to meet different needs, but they are all passenger vehicles - even
when they are not actually carrying passengers. Similarly, poisons intended
to kill organisms for pest control purposes are all pesticides, even though
the nature of the pests may be very different. And, fortunately, it is not
mandatory to use a pesticide just because one encounters a 'pest' :-)

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 19/7/04 9:37, in article
, "Howard Neil"
wrote:

Sacha wrote:

On 18/7/04 8:44 pm, in article
, "Howard
Neil"
wrote:


BAC wrote:

[...about 'pesticide' etc...]

This is a question of usage. Everybody's right, but in different ways.

My own mind clearly distinguishes pests, diseases, and weeds; and I'm
generally very fussy about words. But it seems perfectly reasonable
for the controlling government department to select a term which shall
be deemed to include non-mechanical controls for all three. We laugh
at them when they use great big heavy phrases instead of a simple
familiar word or two.

Weeds _are_ a 'pest' in one recognized sense; and I don't really think
that classifying a herbicide as a 'pesticide' for the purposes of
regulation will cause the unwary to spray the greenfly with
glyphosate. But it does simplify the rules about toxic products, and
that's a good thing.

Mike.

In message , Franz Heymann
writes

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 18/7/04 8:44 pm, in article
, "Howard Neil"
wrote:

BAC wrote:

Sorry about that - I use the term 'pesticides' to include
herbicides,
insecticides, fungicides, etc. I don't think I'm alone in that,
but
apologise for any confusion. In this context, I meant weedkiller,
specifically one not fatal to lawn grass.

You are correct in your use of the term "pesticide". It is a
general
term that includes herbicides, insecticides and fungicides. Weed
killer
is a herbicide which then means that it is a pesticide.

You may use it in that way but nobody else I know does so.
Herbicide is not
pesticide. We do not use pesticides on this nursery but very
occasionally
we use herbicides. As we use biological controls in the
greenhouses, the
difference is very marked and it would be sloppy to encourage people
to use
'pesticides' when one might mean 'herbicides', IMO.

According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica, a pesticide is "any toxic
substance used to kill animals or plants that cause economic damage to
crop or ornamental plants or are hazardous to the health of domestic
animals or humans." It goes on in a vein which *explicitly* includes
herbicides, insecticides, fungicides and fumigants.

Herbicides are therefore included in the term "pesticide".

Franz



Not according to the Oxford Dictionary.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

In message , BAC
writes

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message , BAC
writes

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , BAC
writes


If that is your philosophy, then, presumably, you are also careful not
to
grow in your garden any alien or hybrid plants (including most
clovers)
which might escape into the wild, hence risking 'damaging' the
diversity
of
the countryside?


You seem to be saying that, unless one embraces a totally 'green'
lifestyle, one should encourage a total disregard for the environment.

I certainly did not say that, nor did I imply it. You said that gardens
and
nature were interlinked and implied that gardeners should not act in a
manner which put at risk the 'diversity of our countryside'. I was
enquiring
whether your belief that use of fertilisers and pesticides for
recreational
purposes could not be justified, for that reason, also extended to the
growing of non-native plants for recreational purposes.

Although you did not directly answer my question, I assume from your
response the answer is no, it doesn't.

I also assume from your response that you feel entitled to exercise your
own
judgement as to what is and what is not reasonable for you to forego in
the
name of preservation of 'the environment', and that you might resent your
decision in the matter being criticised by people who draw their own line
on
the subject in a different place. Rightly so, IMO.


I think he actually wants to dictate where everyone's line is drawn. As
far as I am concerned, the only studies I have ever seen on the subject
of excess nutrients in waterways have laid the blame firmly at the door
of agriculture. If someone can produce evidence to the contrary or scale
the level of damage due to *excess* use in domestic gardening I may
change my position. Until then I will continue to use modest amounts of
fertiliser and weedkillers on the area of grass in front of my house to
maintain it as I like it.

Sounds perfectly reasonable and responsible to me. It's your garden, and you
have the right to make up your own mind about what you want to grow there
and how you should maintain it. Even 'conservation' organisations like the
Woodland Trust make judicious use of weedkiller in their woodlands.


Incidentally, I can't imagine anyone wanting to use pesticides on a
lawn.

Sorry about that - I use the term 'pesticides' to include herbicides,
insecticides, fungicides, etc. I don't think I'm alone in that, but
apologise for any confusion. In this context, I meant weedkiller,
specifically one not fatal to lawn grass.


That's OK. I've never defined it that way. Makes a bit of sense then.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

In message , Franz Heymann
writes

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 19/7/04 9:37, in article
, "Howard Neil"
wrote:

Sacha wrote:

On 18/7/04 8:44 pm, in article
, "Howard
Neil"
wrote:


BAC wrote:


Sorry about that - I use the term 'pesticides' to include
herbicides,
insecticides, fungicides, etc. I don't think I'm alone in that,
but
apologise for any confusion. In this context, I meant
weedkiller,
specifically one not fatal to lawn grass.

You are correct in your use of the term "pesticide". It is a
general
term that includes herbicides, insecticides and fungicides. Weed
killer
is a herbicide which then means that it is a pesticide.


You may use it in that way but nobody else I know does so.
Herbicide is not
pesticide. We do not use pesticides on this nursery but very
occasionally
we use herbicides. As we use biological controls in the
greenhouses, the
difference is very marked and it would be sloppy to encourage
people to use
'pesticides' when one might mean 'herbicides', IMO.

If you have a nursery, I am very surprised at your lack of
knowledge.
Have a look at the definition of herbicide given he-

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/appendices.asp?id=744

And I am not at all surprised at your rudeness - unfortunately.
Pesticides
kill pests, herbicides kill vegetation. It doesn't take some
government
mandarin who wouldn't recognise a pair of wellingtons if they bit
him, to
tell anyone that.
Tell a new gardener that a herbicide is a pesticide and he will make
a very
poor choice when shopping for his requirements.

No. You are unfortunately quite wrong. It is not your prerogative to
redefine technical terms which have a prior definition.
I have now found 9 separate references, originating in the UK and in
the USA, including Encyclopedia
Brittanica and Wikipedia in which herbicides are defined as
pesticides, and none, except you, which claim the opposite.

Franz





OED
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Franz Heymann
writes

"Sacha" wrote in message
. uk...
On 18/7/04 8:44 pm, in article
, "Howard
Neil"
wrote:

BAC wrote:

Sorry about that - I use the term 'pesticides' to include
herbicides,
insecticides, fungicides, etc. I don't think I'm alone in
that,
but
apologise for any confusion. In this context, I meant
weedkiller,
specifically one not fatal to lawn grass.

You are correct in your use of the term "pesticide". It is a
general
term that includes herbicides, insecticides and fungicides.
Weed
killer
is a herbicide which then means that it is a pesticide.

You may use it in that way but nobody else I know does so.
Herbicide is not
pesticide. We do not use pesticides on this nursery but very
occasionally
we use herbicides. As we use biological controls in the
greenhouses, the
difference is very marked and it would be sloppy to encourage
people
to use
'pesticides' when one might mean 'herbicides', IMO.

According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica, a pesticide is "any toxic
substance used to kill animals or plants that cause economic damage
to
crop or ornamental plants or are hazardous to the health of
domestic
animals or humans." It goes on in a vein which *explicitly*
includes
herbicides, insecticides, fungicides and fumigants.

Herbicides are therefore included in the term "pesticide".

Not according to the Oxford Dictionary.

Then the score becomes 14 - 1 in favour of regarding a herbicide as a
pesticide. The 14 come from horticultural and scientific atricles and
the 1 from the OED. The OED is not very reliable about scientific
definitions. It has seriously incorrect entries for "proton",
"electron", "neutron" and "meson", just for starters.

Franz

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 17:14:40 +0100, hugh ] wrote:

In message , Franz Heymann
writes

"Sacha" wrote in message
.uk...
On 19/7/04 9:37, in article
, "Howard Neil"
wrote:

Sacha wrote:

On 18/7/04 8:44 pm, in article
, "Howard
Neil"
wrote:


BAC wrote:


Sorry about that - I use the term 'pesticides' to include
herbicides,
insecticides, fungicides, etc. I don't think I'm alone in that,
but
apologise for any confusion. In this context, I meant
weedkiller,
specifically one not fatal to lawn grass.

You are correct in your use of the term "pesticide". It is a
general
term that includes herbicides, insecticides and fungicides. Weed
killer
is a herbicide which then means that it is a pesticide.


You may use it in that way but nobody else I know does so.
Herbicide is not
pesticide. We do not use pesticides on this nursery but very
occasionally
we use herbicides. As we use biological controls in the
greenhouses, the
difference is very marked and it would be sloppy to encourage
people to use
'pesticides' when one might mean 'herbicides', IMO.

If you have a nursery, I am very surprised at your lack of
knowledge.
Have a look at the definition of herbicide given he-

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/appendices.asp?id=744

And I am not at all surprised at your rudeness - unfortunately.
Pesticides
kill pests, herbicides kill vegetation. It doesn't take some
government
mandarin who wouldn't recognise a pair of wellingtons if they bit
him, to
tell anyone that.
Tell a new gardener that a herbicide is a pesticide and he will make
a very
poor choice when shopping for his requirements.

No. You are unfortunately quite wrong. It is not your prerogative to
redefine technical terms which have a prior definition.
I have now found 9 separate references, originating in the UK and in
the USA, including Encyclopedia
Brittanica and Wikipedia in which herbicides are defined as
pesticides, and none, except you, which claim the opposite.

Franz





OED

Franz has my copy :-(

OD of current English has an "etc." in it's definition of pesticide.
--
Martin