"hugh" ] wrote in message
...
In message , BAC
writes

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , BAC
writes


If that is your philosophy, then, presumably, you are also careful not
to
grow in your garden any alien or hybrid plants (including most
clovers)
which might escape into the wild, hence risking 'damaging' the
diversity
of
the countryside?


You seem to be saying that, unless one embraces a totally 'green'
lifestyle, one should encourage a total disregard for the environment.

I certainly did not say that, nor did I imply it. You said that gardens
and
nature were interlinked and implied that gardeners should not act in a
manner which put at risk the 'diversity of our countryside'. I was
enquiring
whether your belief that use of fertilisers and pesticides for
recreational
purposes could not be justified, for that reason, also extended to the
growing of non-native plants for recreational purposes.

Although you did not directly answer my question, I assume from your
response the answer is no, it doesn't.

I also assume from your response that you feel entitled to exercise your
own
judgement as to what is and what is not reasonable for you to forego in
the
name of preservation of 'the environment', and that you might resent your
decision in the matter being criticised by people who draw their own line
on
the subject in a different place. Rightly so, IMO.


I think he actually wants to dictate where everyone's line is drawn. As
far as I am concerned, the only studies I have ever seen on the subject
of excess nutrients in waterways have laid the blame firmly at the door
of agriculture. If someone can produce evidence to the contrary or scale
the level of damage due to *excess* use in domestic gardening I may
change my position. Until then I will continue to use modest amounts of
fertiliser and weedkillers on the area of grass in front of my house to
maintain it as I like it.

Sounds perfectly reasonable and responsible to me. It's your garden, and you
have the right to make up your own mind about what you want to grow there
and how you should maintain it. Even 'conservation' organisations like the
Woodland Trust make judicious use of weedkiller in their woodlands.


Incidentally, I can't imagine anyone wanting to use pesticides on a
lawn.

Sorry about that - I use the term 'pesticides' to include herbicides,
insecticides, fungicides, etc. I don't think I'm alone in that, but
apologise for any confusion. In this context, I meant weedkiller,
specifically one not fatal to lawn grass.

"Sacha" wrote in message
k...
On 18/7/04 8:44 pm, in article
, "Howard Neil"
wrote:

BAC wrote:

Sorry about that - I use the term 'pesticides' to include
herbicides,
insecticides, fungicides, etc. I don't think I'm alone in that,
but
apologise for any confusion. In this context, I meant weedkiller,
specifically one not fatal to lawn grass.

You are correct in your use of the term "pesticide". It is a
general
term that includes herbicides, insecticides and fungicides. Weed
killer
is a herbicide which then means that it is a pesticide.

You may use it in that way but nobody else I know does so.
Herbicide is not
pesticide. We do not use pesticides on this nursery but very
occasionally
we use herbicides. As we use biological controls in the
greenhouses, the
difference is very marked and it would be sloppy to encourage people
to use
'pesticides' when one might mean 'herbicides', IMO.

According to the Encyclopedia Brittanica, a pesticide is "any toxic
substance used to kill animals or plants that cause economic damage to
crop or ornamental plants or are hazardous to the health of domestic
animals or humans." It goes on in a vein which *explicitly* includes
herbicides, insecticides, fungicides and fumigants.

Herbicides are therefore included in the term "pesticide".

Franz

This argument about the "correct" terminology just goes to show the conflict
of logic and terminology.
The Guide that took over from the old ADAs orange book on
Agricultural/horticultural chemicals is in fast "The UK Pesticide Guide".
I know.......I spent a long time ignoring it and looking for a guide to
herbicides before finally being told that it was all termed as Pesticide, so
if your "Pest " is a bug or a plant then that's the guide to find the
answer.
I wonder why all the fuss, the way things are going in another few years we
will have so little choice that they will all be able to be listed on a
couple of post cards.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Howard Neil writes

Before you start making up your own definitions, I suggest that you have
a read of:-

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/appendices.asp?id=744


Which gives:
-----------
Pesticide
Any substance, preparation or organism prepared or used for controlling
any pest. A pesticide product consists of one or more active substances
co-formulated with other materials. Formulated pesticides exist in many
forms, such as solid granules, powders or liquids.
-----------

That Govt. definition is not relevant to this thread because clover is
not considered to be a pest in organic gardening.

But it was by the OP, who wanted rid of it?

On 19/7/04 21:57, in article
, "Howard Neil"
wrote:

Sacha wrote:
snip
And needed a HERBicide. ;-))

Which is, in turn, a pesticide.

I quote from the Pesticides Safety Directorate's glossary
snip


I was sure that you would. The government obliteration of 'common sense'
has readily seized upon your life, it seems.

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds after garden to email me)

In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes

No. You are unfortunately quite wrong. It is not your prerogative to
redefine technical terms which have a prior definition.
I have now found 9 separate references, originating in the UK and in
the USA, including Encyclopedia
Brittanica and Wikipedia in which herbicides are defined as
pesticides, and none, except you, which claim the opposite.

Wrong again Franz. I agree with and support Sacha in this matter.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Sacha
writes
That Govt. definition is not relevant to this thread because clover is
not considered to be a pest in organic gardening.

But it was by the OP, who wanted rid of it?

And needed a HERBicide. ;-))

Yes, but not one which affected grass.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

"Alan Gould" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
writes

In urg, recreational gardening terms are used.

Sometimes some urglers use wrong terms. We are discussing an
instance
of that.

My father, on his allotment in the 1930s, used to infuse fag ends in
one
of his empty Golden Virginia tobacco tins. He used it on greenfly
and
anything else that moved. He called it 'jollop'. Was I being misled?

No. But your father would probably not have argued if someone had
mentioned to him that his jollop was a tobacco infusion.
{:-))

Franz

On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 16:55:11 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"hugh" ] wrote in message
...

Herbicides are therefore included in the term "pesticide".

Not according to the Oxford Dictionary.

Then the score becomes 14 - 1 in favour of regarding a herbicide as a
pesticide. The 14 come from horticultural and scientific atricles and
the 1 from the OED. The OED is not very reliable about scientific
definitions. It has seriously incorrect entries for "proton",
"electron", "neutron" and "meson", just for starters.

Franz


Franz 1 OED 0 :-)


--
Martin