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#2
03-10-2004, 07:16 AM
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"oknwht?" wrote in message ... [snip] Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends? Your parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them? Yes. Why not? Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world and the vegetable products from these farms are consumed in vast quantities everywhere. [snip] Franz |
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#3
06-10-2004, 07:57 AM
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On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article , "Franz
Heymann" wrote: "oknwht?" wrote in message ... [snip] Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends? Your parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them? Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world [snip] Franz Franz, Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said? "It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural land all over the world"... That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into streams all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans... What proof do you have that it is not? What proof do you have that it will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's use? You defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer). Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them? Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing wrong with exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put into the environment. Gary Fort Langley, BC Canada |
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#4
06-10-2004, 09:26 AM
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"Gary Davis" wrote in message ... On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article , "Franz Heymann" wrote: "oknwht?" wrote in message ... [snip] Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends? Your parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them? Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world [snip] Franz Franz, Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said? "It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural land all over the world"... That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into streams all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans... That is a nonsensical reply to what I said.. Glyphosate is destroyed within hours after entering the soil. What proof do you have that it is not? The fact that it is destroyed very quickly after entering the soil. What proof do you have that it will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's use? Statistics. Give me a statistically significant sample of folk who have been harmed by consuming glyphosate ingested by eating vegetables. Bear in mind that the topic has been subjected to continuous, intense experimentation over a number of decades. You defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer). No. Such savings as I have are all deposited in a building society. I just don't go with the prejudiced statements about the ills of not being an "organic gardener". Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them? If I had not, somebody would have said that I should snip those parts of the note which are not contextual with what I said. I have been chided on that score more than once before. I indicated that I snipped. That is my way of signalling that the interested reader might wish to read the missing matter by referring to the previous post. Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing wrong with exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put into the environment. I have no objection to that. I also have no objection to eating it. By the way, do you have any data on the temperature at which glyphosate decomposes? Do you know whether it survives a typical cooking procedure? Franz |
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#5
08-10-2004, 05:53 PM
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Big snip of many messages that were snipped
I also have no objection to eating it. By the way, do you have any data on the temperature at which it breaks down? Franz According to info on the below site cooking does not destroy it...and the below site gives information about it's toxicity when ingested. I have not included reference to breakdown temperature nor toxicity in the below 'quote'. Franz et all The below info came from this website: http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/R...tsheet-Cox.htm There is much more information at that site than is below. But the info below covers some of the things discussed on this thread-some not all. To get more information read the info on the site. I have other sites as well but let us start with this one. Gary "Persistence and Movement in Soil (of Glyphosate): Glyphosate's persistence in soil varies widely, so giving a simple answer to the question "How long does glyphosate persist in soil?" is not possible. Half-lives (the time required for half of the amount of glyphosate applied to break down or move away) as low as 3 days (in Texas) and as long as 141 days (in Iowa) have been measured by glyphosate's manufacturer.119 (See Figure 6.) Initial degradation (breakdown) is faster than the subsequent degradation of what remains.120 Long persistence has been measured in the following studies: 55 days on an Oregon Coast Range forestry site121: 249 days on Finnish agricultural soils122; between 259 and 296 days on eight Finnish forestry sites120; 335 days on an Ontario (Canada) forestry site123; 360 days on 3 British Columbia forestry sites124; and, from 1 to 3 years on eleven Swedish forestry sites.125 EPA's Ecological Effect's Branch wrote, "In summary, this herbicide is extremely persistent under typical application conditions. "126* Glyphosate is thought to be "tightly complexed [bound] by most soils"127 and therefore "in most soils, glyphosate is essentially immobile."127 This means that the glyphosate will be unlikely to contaminate water or soil away from the application site. However, this binding to soil is "reversible." For example, one study found that glyphosate bound readily to four different soils. However, desorption, when glyphosate unbinds from soil particles, also occurred readily. In one soil, 80 percent of the added glyphosate desorbed in a two hour period. The study concluded that "this herbicide can be extensively mobile in the soil ...." 123 Water Contamination When glyphosate binds readily to soil particles, it does not have the chemical characteristics of a pesticide that is likely to leach into water.2 (When it readily desorbs, as described above, this changes. However, glyphosate can move into surface water when the soil particles to which it is bound are washed into streams or rivers.4 How often this happens is not known, because routine monitoring for glyphosate in water is infrequent.2* Glyphosate has been found in both ground and surface water. Examples include farm ponds in Ontario, Canada, contaminated by runoff from an agricultural treatment and a spill129; the runoff from a watersheds treated with Roundup during production of no-till corn and fescue130; contaminated surface water in the Netherlands'; seven U.S. wells (one in Texas, six in Virginia contaminated with glyphosate 131; contaminated forest streams in Oregon and Washington132, 133; contaminated streams near Puget Sound, Washington 134; and contaminated wells under electrical substations treated with glyphosate.135" Gary Fort Langley, BC Canada |
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#6
09-10-2004, 09:36 AM
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"Gary Davis" wrote in message ... Big snip of many messages that were snipped I also have no objection to eating it. By the way, do you have any data on the temperature at which it breaks down? Franz According to info on the below site cooking does not destroy it...and the below site gives information about it's toxicity when ingested. I have not included reference to breakdown temperature nor toxicity in the below 'quote'. Franz et all The below info came from this website: http://www.mindfully.org/Pesticide/R...tsheet-Cox.htm There is much more information at that site than is below. But the info below covers some of the things discussed on this thread-some not all. To get more information read the info on the site. I have other sites as well but let us start with this one. Gary "Persistence and Movement in Soil (of Glyphosate): Glyphosate's persistence in soil varies widely, so giving a simple answer to the question "How long does glyphosate persist in soil?" is not possible. Half-lives (the time required for half of the amount of glyphosate applied to break down or move away) as low as 3 days (in Texas) and as long as 141 days (in Iowa) have been measured by glyphosate's manufacturer.119 (See Figure 6.) Initial degradation (breakdown) is faster than the subsequent degradation of what remains.120 Long persistence has been measured in the following studies: 55 days on an Oregon Coast Range forestry site121: 249 days on Finnish agricultural soils122; between 259 and 296 days on eight Finnish forestry sites120; 335 days on an Ontario (Canada) forestry site123; 360 days on 3 British Columbia forestry sites124; and, from 1 to 3 years on eleven Swedish forestry sites.125 EPA's Ecological Effect's Branch wrote, "In summary, this herbicide is extremely persistent under typical application conditions. "126 Glyphosate is thought to be "tightly complexed [bound] by most soils"127 and therefore "in most soils, glyphosate is essentially immobile."127 This means that the glyphosate will be unlikely to contaminate water or soil away from the application site. However, this binding to soil is "reversible." For example, one study found that glyphosate bound readily to four different soils. However, desorption, when glyphosate unbinds from soil particles, also occurred readily. In one soil, 80 percent of the added glyphosate desorbed in a two hour period. The study concluded that "this herbicide can be extensively mobile in the soil ...." 123 Water Contamination When glyphosate binds readily to soil particles, it does not have the chemical characteristics of a pesticide that is likely to leach into water.2 (When it readily desorbs, as described above, this changes. However, glyphosate can move into surface water when the soil particles to which it is bound are washed into streams or rivers.4 How often this happens is not known, because routine monitoring for glyphosate in water is infrequent.2 Glyphosate has been found in both ground and surface water. Examples include farm ponds in Ontario, Canada, contaminated by runoff from an agricultural treatment and a spill129; the runoff from a watersheds treated with Roundup during production of no-till corn and fescue130; contaminated surface water in the Netherlands'; seven U.S. wells (one in Texas, six in Virginia contaminated with glyphosate 131; contaminated forest streams in Oregon and Washington132, 133; contaminated streams near Puget Sound, Washington 134; and contaminated wells under electrical substations treated with glyphosate.135" I notice that it was published in a journal called "Pesticide Reform". The titlle sounds as if it has an axe to grind. If you could persuade the authors to republish in a scientific journal of repute I would consider reading it. Franz |
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#7
06-10-2004, 12:03 PM
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Gary Davis wrote in message ...
On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article , "Franz Heymann" wrote: "oknwht?" wrote in message ... [snip] Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends? Your parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them? Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world [snip] Franz Franz, Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said? "It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural land all over the world"... That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into streams all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans... What proof do you have that it is not? What proof do you have that it will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's use? You defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer). Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them? Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing wrong with exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put into the environment. Gary Fort Langley, BC Canada Gary I have read Franz' position on Glyphosate before and he is totally consistent. I think his postion can be summarized as - There is no scientific proof that Glyphosate harms the environment, no proof that it enters to food chain and harms animals or people. Therefore its OK. On a separate but related point, last nights TV contained a documentary on Vietnam. Part of it contained a visit to a hospital (I think in Hanoi). One ward was full of disfigured children. The disfigurations were blamed on Agent Orange, a defoliant used by the US when they realised they could not win a jungle war. Some of these children were 3rd generation, ie their grandparents were exposed to Agent Orange. Maybe this explains why I am NOT waiting for scientific proof. Incidentally, the US have never admitted that the problems are as a result of Agent Orange and no compensation has ever been paid to victims, or assistance given to the Vietnamese authorities to help with the care of the unfortunate victims. |
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#8
06-10-2004, 01:09 PM
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Philip wrote
" One ward was full of disfigured children. The disfigurations were blamed on Agent Orange, a defoliant used by the US when they realised they could not win a jungle war..." If you look further into it you will find that there are hundreds, if not thousands of children in the US who also have birth defects brought on by Agent Orrange. The troops were told how safe it was to the extent that at least one Sergent would actualy dring some of it to show the recrutes that it was harmless You may find this of interest ................. The World Today - Wednesday, 6 October , 2004 12:22:00 Reporter: Gillian Bradford ELEANOR HALL: There's been some justice today for Vietnam Veterans across the Tasman. For thirty years, successive governments have denied New Zealand soldiers were exposed to Agent Orange and other defoliant chemicals. But a new bi-partisan report from the Parliament's health committee has found troops were exposed and that their children have also suffered. New Zealand Correspondent Gillian Bradford reports. GILLIAN BRADFORD: In the years after they came back from the war, Vietnam veterans knew something wasn't quite right. There were skin conditions, abnormal rates of cancer and birth defects among their children. -- David Hill Abacus nurseries www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk |
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#9
06-10-2004, 07:45 PM
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"Philip" wrote in message m... Gary Davis wrote in message ... On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article , "Franz Heymann" wrote: "oknwht?" wrote in message ... [snip] Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends? Your parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them? Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world [snip] Franz Franz, Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said? "It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural land all over the world"... That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into streams all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans... What proof do you have that it is not? What proof do you have that it will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's use? You defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer). Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them? Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing wrong with exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put into the environment. Gary Fort Langley, BC Canada Gary I have read Franz' position on Glyphosate before and he is totally consistent. I think his postion can be summarized as - There is no scientific proof that Glyphosate harms the environment, no proof that it enters to food chain and harms animals or people. Therefore its OK. Your analysis is correct as far as it goes, except that the last sentence should be "Therefore it is OK until some contra-indication is established beyond doubt." Franz On a separate but related point, last nights TV contained a documentary on Vietnam. Part of it contained a visit to a hospital (I think in Hanoi). One ward was full of disfigured children. The disfigurations were blamed on Agent Orange, a defoliant used by the US when they realised they could not win a jungle war. Some of these children were 3rd generation, ie their grandparents were exposed to Agent Orange. Maybe this explains why I am NOT waiting for scientific proof. Incidentally, the US have never admitted that the problems are as a result of Agent Orange and no compensation has ever been paid to victims, or assistance given to the Vietnamese authorities to help with the care of the unfortunate victims. |
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#11
07-10-2004, 03:10 PM
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"Gary Davis" wrote in message ... On 10/6/04 4:03 AM, in article , "Philip" wrote: Gary Davis wrote in message ... On 10/2/04 11:16 PM, in article , "Franz Heymann" wrote: "oknwht?" wrote in message ... [snip] Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends? Your parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them? Glyphosate is used commercially as a weedkiller on millions of acres of agricuktural land all over the world [snip] Franz Franz, Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said? "It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural land all over the world"... That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into streams all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans... What proof do you have that it is not? What proof do you have that it will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's use? You defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer). Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them? Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing wrong with exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put into the environment. Gary Fort Langley, BC Canada Gary I have read Franz' position on Glyphosate before and he is totally consistent. I think his postion can be summarized as - There is no scientific proof that Glyphosate harms the environment, no proof that it enters to food chain and harms animals or people. Therefore its OK. On a separate but related point, last nights TV contained a documentary on Vietnam. Part of it contained a visit to a hospital (I think in Hanoi). One ward was full of disfigured children. The disfigurations were blamed on Agent Orange, a defoliant used by the US when they realised they could not win a jungle war. Some of these children were 3rd generation, ie their grandparents were exposed to Agent Orange. Maybe this explains why I am NOT waiting for scientific proof. Incidentally, the US have never admitted that the problems are as a result of Agent Orange and no compensation has ever been paid to victims, or assistance given to the Vietnamese authorities to help with the care of the unfortunate victims. Philip Thanks for posting the above info. There will be some people who will continue to use 'chemicals' no matter what. I believe it is important to make as many people as possible aware of the dangers of continued use. At the same time there are many who, once learning of the dangers, will make the change to a more organic approach. We must keep beating the drum... That is the trouble with organofaddists. They keep beating the drum instead of facing up to the fact that their method of food production, whilst being fun, is incapable of feeding the world. Thank you for your support in this important endeavour. Franz |
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#12
06-10-2004, 12:56 PM
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The message
from Gary Davis contains these words: Would it be ok if I was to quote what you just said? "It (Glyphosate) is used on millions of acres of agricultural land all over the world"... That must mean then, that lots of weed killer is being put into streams all over the world....into lakes and ultimately the oceans... Not so. It forms strong triangular bonds with soil particles and is locked in that location. What proof do you have that it is not? What proof do you have that it will do no harm to anyone who eats the vegetables grown after it's use? You defend it's use like you are a shareholder (of the manufacturer). Well, I recognise an enemy of Monsanto when I see one, and, I see one. I have no love of their methods, but I do have the utmost confidence in Roundup®. And yes, I have used it a lot when I had a smallholding. What evidence do *YOU* have that glyphosate harms not only the target vegetation, but the wider environment? Twiggy made some good points, why did you snip them? Someone suggested digging it in...a good organic idea-nothing wrong with exercise, especially when it means one less pint of chemical put into the environment. You can dig it in when you've killed it with the weedkiller and get the best of both worlds. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
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#13
03-10-2004, 06:35 PM
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On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 01:25:24 GMT, oknwht?
wrote: Discussing the price of this product (weedkiller-Roundup etc.) does not make it ok to use. There was a suggestion early on in this post that simply said: "Just turn it over..." and "Using weed killer is not good for a vegetable garden". What more does one need to know. But then it is your vegetable garden...please don't invite me over for supper...! Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends? Your parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them? Don't do it-turn it over. It's called green manure and it will nurture the soil...it's fall and you can't grow anything now anyway. Turn it over and let nature take its course. In the spring you can plant your vegetable seeds and know you did the right thing. In fact turn it over now and plant a cover crop. You would want one that will smother the weeds. Ask your local gardening shop about that. With love...of veggies, Twiggy Like countless millions of well nourished healthy people in the world, we do use it, we eat produce grown in areas treated with it. Before the application of modern science to agriculture there were far fewer people on this planet, and a greater proportion of them were malnourished or downright starving than is the case now. Don't knock it - there's never been a better time to be alive. Roundup or it's generic equivalents are excellent products to use to clean up a badly overgrown area prior to getting it into food production. Nothing wrong with green manure either but it aint gonna get rid of your perennial weeds and get your land back into efficient production. Hard labour or Roundup? Amateurs can choose. For most people earning a living from the land there isn't any choice given the the absence of a huge low paid labour force and relentless downward pressure on prices exerted by we the consumers (not the supermarkets, they wouldn't last 5 minutes if we didn't use 'em). ================================================= Rod Weed my email address to reply. http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html |
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#14
03-10-2004, 07:37 PM
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The message
from Rod contains these words: Roundup or it's generic equivalents are excellent products to use to clean up a badly overgrown area prior to getting it into food production. Um - a bit too ambiguous for comfort? -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
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#15
04-10-2004, 08:54 PM
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"oknwht?" wrote in message ... On 9/29/04 8:00 AM, in article ult, "Steve Harris" wrote: In article , (Phil L) wrote: Boys and girls, Discussing the price of this product (weedkiller-Roundup etc.) does not make it ok to use. er discussing doesn't make it NOT ok to use either. The facts are wot makes it OK or not OK to use. There was a suggestion early on in this post that simply said: "Just turn it over..." and "Using weed killer is not good for a vegetable garden". What more does one need to know. What one needs to know is whether the second assertion is true or not. As it's stated in such blanket, unqualified terms, I would consider it very unlikely to be true. But then it is your vegetable garden...please don't invite me over for supper...! astonishing statement, given the widespread use of glyphosate. Do you never eat any commercially grown vegetables, and do you refuse invitations from anyone who does? Will you actually give these vegetables to your kids? Your friends? Your parents? And you, yourself, will actually eat them? And you claim that you don't? Don't do it-turn it over. It's called green manure no, it isn't. Perennial weeds are not generally suitable for use as green manure. and it will nurture the soil... ...or spread bits of perennial weeds throughout the soil. Silly stuff. it's fall and you can't grow anything now anyway. No it's not fall- it's autumn, and things, including weeds, do grow overwinter in the UK. Turn it over and let nature take its course. In the spring you can plant your vegetable seeds and know you did the right thing. and spend lots of effort fighting the weeds again. -- Anton |
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