The message
from "Phil L" contains these words:

The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper sheath, the tap
contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm brass sheath, which is going to
freeze first?

The water in the tap.

:: Air is not a good conductor, nor does it have a high energy
:: potential.
::
:: However, leaving the tap open will certainly lessen the liklihood
:: of a burst, especially if the freezing is very slow. Ice at or near
:: freezing-point melts readily when under pressure, resulting in a
:: certain amount of it being pushed through the tap as ice, and once
:: unconstricted, the fluid fraction immediately freezes, making it
:: appear as if the ice has been pushed out as a lump.

Like I said, it expands out of the open tap.

Only under *VERY* slow freezing conditions. A hard frost, and the water
in the tap freezes hard, and the expansion takes the easier way out -
through the copper pipe.
God sends the meat, the Devil sends the cooks.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

In article , Phil L
writes
The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper sheath, the tap
contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm brass sheath, which is going to
freeze first?

Neither of them contain anything like that amount of water unless either
you have blocked the end of the tap or are keeping it full on. What they
both perhaps contain is a small amount of water coating the sides. And
the tap is open at the end.

The likely scenario is, therefore, that the water will freeze at the
opening of the tap first, and further trickles will run down and freeze
on top in layers until the tap is blocked.

--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

Pam Moore wrote:
On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 16:48:43 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:44:43 GMT, "Sue" wrote:

........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?

Turn off the supply to it and then drain it.

I have trouble with this also. I turn off the inside tap, leave the
outside tap open, but it does not drain. The pipe goes down on the
wall, outside. (inside tap is in loft) I have lagged pipe and
outside tap and it has not frozen since I did this ( after several
years of having to have bits of pipe replaced because of bursts).
This is because the outside pipe does not drain. I'd welcome any
tips
on how to do this.
I've also wrapped the tap itself in bubble wrap.

If you haven't had a problem since you lagged everything, I'd say
you've cracked it (bad choice of word there!). If you check the
lagging every year, I don't think you need to worry about draining
the pipe-run. A traditional practice, more attractive than
bubble-wrap, is to enclose the tap and its exposed rising pipe in a
neat wooden box with insulation inside, and hinged top section or a
little door for access to the tap. In most areas, though, I'd say the
box probably wouldn't need to enclose the business end of the tap
itself.

Alternatively, if the wooden thing is too much bother, I find you can
paint over that round hardish foam lagging they sell in the sheds. A
cheap bouncy ball with a slit in it might make quite a neat cover for
the tap itself, and should be cosy enough for most winters.

Mike.

Mike Lyle wrote:
[...]
Alternatively, if the wooden thing is too much bother, I find you
can
paint over that round hardish foam lagging they sell in the sheds.
A
cheap bouncy ball with a slit in it might make quite a neat cover
for
the tap itself, and should be cosy enough for most winters.

Good old Google! Have a look at this:

http://www.daxproducts.co.uk/tapcover.html

Should be available from Plumb Center, Plumber's World, etc; seems to
cost about £4.50.

Mike.

Kay wrote:
:: In article , Phil L
:: writes
::: The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper
::: sheath, the tap contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm brass
::: sheath, which is going to freeze first?
::
:: Neither of them contain anything like that amount of water unless
:: either you have blocked the end of the tap or are keeping it full
:: on. What they both perhaps contain is a small amount of water
:: coating the sides. And the tap is open at the end.
::
:: The likely scenario is, therefore, that the water will freeze at
:: the opening of the tap first, and further trickles will run down
:: and freeze on top in layers until the tap is blocked.
::
Hmmm...now I think I see where everyone's going wrong!...the pipe and tap
will both be (all but) drained, having turned off it's water supply and left
the tap open...what little there is in there *cannot* expand sufficiently to
burst a pipe.

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
:: The message
:: from "Phil L" contains these words:
::
::: The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper
::: sheath, the tap contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm brass
::: sheath, which is going to freeze first?
::
:: The water in the tap.

The tap which is fully open with it's supply cut off?
::
::::: Air is not a good conductor, nor does it have a high energy
::::: potential.
:::::
::::: However, leaving the tap open will certainly lessen the
::::: liklihood of a burst, especially if the freezing is very slow.
::::: Ice at or near freezing-point melts readily when under
::::: pressure, resulting in a certain amount of it being pushed
::::: through the tap as ice, and once unconstricted, the fluid
::::: fraction immediately freezes, making it appear as if the ice
::::: has been pushed out as a lump.
::
::: Like I said, it expands out of the open tap.
::
:: Only under *VERY* slow freezing conditions. A hard frost, and the
:: water in the tap freezes hard, and the expansion takes the easier
:: way out - through the copper pipe.
:: God sends the meat, the Devil sends the cooks.

We don't get very rapid hard frosts in this country...it would have to be
instantaneous!
Frosts occur gradually +2 /+1/ 0/ -1 /-2 over a period of a few hours...in
this time what little water remains in the pipe has gone...the outlet of the
tap *is* the lowest point remember.

The message
from "Phil L" contains these words:

We don't get very rapid hard frosts in this country...it would have to be
instantaneous!
Frosts occur gradually +2 /+1/ 0/ -1 /-2 over a period of a few hours...in
this time what little water remains in the pipe has gone...the outlet of the
tap *is* the lowest point remember.

My outside tap rises from an underground supply, as does a large
proportion of others.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
:: The message
:: from "Phil L" contains these words:
::
::: We don't get very rapid hard frosts in this country...it would
::: have to be instantaneous!
::: Frosts occur gradually +2 /+1/ 0/ -1 /-2 over a period of a few
::: hours...in this time what little water remains in the pipe has
::: gone...the outlet of the tap *is* the lowest point remember.
::
:: My outside tap rises from an underground supply, as does a large
:: proportion of others.
::

Yes there are exceptions, the other 99% of people who have a tap fixed to
the side of the house I meant.
:-p

If you move down here in Plymouth we wouldn't be having this thread and you
could leave your tap outdoors as long as you like. Now if that isn't
tempting fate lol

In article , Phil L
writes
Kay wrote:
:: In article , Phil L
:: writes
::: The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper
::: sheath, the tap contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm brass
::: sheath, which is going to freeze first?
::
:: Neither of them contain anything like that amount of water unless
:: either you have blocked the end of the tap or are keeping it full
:: on. What they both perhaps contain is a small amount of water
:: coating the sides. And the tap is open at the end.
::
:: The likely scenario is, therefore, that the water will freeze at
:: the opening of the tap first, and further trickles will run down
:: and freeze on top in layers until the tap is blocked.
::
Hmmm...now I think I see where everyone's going wrong!...the pipe and tap
will both be (all but) drained, having turned off it's water supply and left
the tap open...what little there is in there *cannot* expand sufficiently to
burst a pipe.

But wasn't it you who said

The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper
::: sheath, the tap contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm brass
::: sheath, which is going to freeze first?

?
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

Kay wrote:
:::::
::: Hmmm...now I think I see where everyone's going wrong!...the pipe
::: and tap will both be (all but) drained, having turned off it's
::: water supply and left the tap open...what little there is in
::: there *cannot* expand sufficiently to burst a pipe.
:::
:: But wasn't it you who said
:::
::: The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper
:::::: sheath, the tap contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm brass
:::::: sheath, which is going to freeze first?
::
:: ?

Yes I did say that and in the case of the pipe being horizontal, there is a
possibility, even with the water turned off, that the pipe and tap could
still contain water, (not under any pressure) and with the tap fully open,
it still cannot burst a copper pipe if it froze - it takes the easiest
route.

Anyway - I have (accidentally) frozen cans of lager in the deep freeze many
times and they haven't bursted the can - the beer is already under pressure,
the material is about a tenth of the thickness of copper pipe and they have
been in there for days without bursting, I think people underestimate the
strength of water pipes...if the tap is open, the water/slush/ice will
escape through there before getting through the metalwork.

"Phil L" wrote in message
. ..
Kay wrote:
:::::
::: Hmmm...now I think I see where everyone's going wrong!...the
pipe
::: and tap will both be (all but) drained, having turned off it's
::: water supply and left the tap open...what little there is in
::: there *cannot* expand sufficiently to burst a pipe.
:::
:: But wasn't it you who said
:::
::: The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper
:::::: sheath, the tap contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm
brass
:::::: sheath, which is going to freeze first?
::
:: ?

Yes I did say that and in the case of the pipe being horizontal,
there is a
possibility, even with the water turned off, that the pipe and tap
could
still contain water, (not under any pressure) and with the tap fully
open,
it still cannot burst a copper pipe if it froze - it takes the
easiest
route.

Anyway - I have (accidentally) frozen cans of lager in the deep
freeze many
times and they haven't bursted the can

Have you ever thought of the fact that there is probably a small space
ibn the can, containing gas into which the lager might expand?
Have you ever thought of the consequences of the fact that the
solubility of gases in water incfesaes as the temperature decreases?
Have you considered that the shape of the bottom of a lager can is
such as to allow it to be deformed under pressure in such a way as to
increase the internal volume?

- the beer is already under pressure,

Which, of course, decreases as the temperature drops.

the material is about a tenth of the thickness of copper pipe and
they have
been in there for days without bursting, I think people
underestimate the
strength of water pipes

No. water pipes are known to burst on occasion.

....if the tap is open, the water/slush/ice will
escape through there before getting through the metalwork.

So according to you all those burst water pipes are just in people's
imaginations?

Franz

The message
from "Phil L" contains these words:

:: My outside tap rises from an underground supply, as does a large
:: proportion of others.
::

Yes there are exceptions, the other 99% of people who have a tap fixed to
the side of the house I meant.

*AND* the pipe is iron...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Martin contains these words:

Yes there are exceptions, the other 99% of people who have a tap fixed to
the side of the house I meant.
:-p

South of the Watford Gap, they don't have frosts. Jaques d'Alltrades
is just theorising. :-)

Don't be thilly! Watford Gap is halfway to the equator from me!

Indeed, one year we had a frost which was as cold as the inside of my
freezer, and the water butt froze solid. It was a steel barrel about
four feet in diameter and nearly four feet high, and with the downpipe
frozen into it, it would have made one big ice lolly. And all the pipes
in the house froze, and even the underground one between the house and
the wellhouse - and that was buried about three feet down.

Water was had by dipping the 1,000 gallon storage tank in the house with
a jet, and the water in the tank was kept from freezing solid by
covering it with old curtains and having a hurricane lamp underneath.

The place I had then was on a smallholding, and was mantled of two skins
of asbestos sheet on a frame of woodworm holding hands. I had a boy
staying with me at the time (I had a broken knee-cap and couldn't easily
carry the animal feed) and it was so cold he moved into my bedroom on
the sofa, and to keep the chill off we had a Valor paraffin stove and
two Aladdin table lamps going full blast, and in the morning there was
ice on the inside walls of the room.

Porage and a fry-up, and lots of hot tea!

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Phil L" wrote in message
. ..
Kay wrote:
:::::
::: Hmmm...now I think I see where everyone's going wrong!...the
pipe
::: and tap will both be (all but) drained, having turned off it's
::: water supply and left the tap open...what little there is in
::: there *cannot* expand sufficiently to burst a pipe.
:::
:: But wasn't it you who said
:::
::: The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper
:::::: sheath, the tap contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm
brass
:::::: sheath, which is going to freeze first?
::
:: ?

Yes I did say that and in the case of the pipe being horizontal,
there is a
possibility, even with the water turned off, that the pipe and tap
could
still contain water, (not under any pressure) and with the tap
fully
open,
it still cannot burst a copper pipe if it froze - it takes the
easiest
route.

Anyway - I have (accidentally) frozen cans of lager in the deep
freeze many
times and they haven't bursted the can

Have you ever thought of the fact that there is probably a small
space
ibn

typo. in

the can, containing gas into which the lager might expand?
Have you ever thought of the consequences of the fact that the
solubility of gases in water incfesaes

double typo. increases

as the temperature decreases?
Have you considered that the shape of the bottom of a lager can is
such as to allow it to be deformed under pressure in such a way as
to
increase the internal volume?

- the beer is already under pressure,

Which, of course, decreases as the temperature drops.

the material is about a tenth of the thickness of copper pipe and
they have
been in there for days without bursting, I think people
underestimate the
strength of water pipes

No. water pipes are known to burst on occasion.

...if the tap is open, the water/slush/ice will
escape through there before getting through the metalwork.

So according to you all those burst water pipes are just in people's
imaginations?

Franz