In article , Bob Hobden
writes

That's not my understanding Alan, I understood some chemicals and "natural"
plant extract chemicals are allowed, and as some plant extract chemicals
will kill I don't see they are any more valid in an organic garden than man
made ones.

All substances living or inert have elements in them which can be
expressed in chemical terms. Whether they are benign or malign depends
on how they are used. For example, a cup of water can kill if it is
consumed wrongly, whereas Joan takes Warfarin daily as a medicine.

As with the word organic, the word chemical has several definitions. In
the context of organic horticulture, chemical refers to manufactured
chemical poisons such as herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, etc.
These are often (wrongly IMHO) all expressed as pesticides. Along with
chemical fertilisers and lethal home-made potions none of them are
acceptable in commercial organic horticulture. Non-commercial
recreational gardeners can do as they please, but those who wish to eat
properly safe organic food need to keep to commercial standards.

There may be different arrangements for so called 'Organic (TM)'
produce, but I have never discovered any food on sale under that name.
Could you detail where you have seen it?

What I meant by that is, the organic stuff sold in supermarkets and similar
which is produced on factory type farms like the other non-organic produce,
i.e. highly commercial, millions of £'s involved.......

No food can legally be sold for public consumption as organic unless it
carries an authorised symbol of organic quality. That guarantees it to
be in compliance with the regulations. There are cheats and tricksters
in any aspect of business, but anyone who tries to defraud organic
consumers risks losing their livelihood. If you know it to be happening,
report them, the bigger they are, the heavier they fall.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In message , Alan Gould
writes
In article , Bob Hobden
writes

That's not my understanding Alan, I understood some chemicals and "natural"
plant extract chemicals are allowed, and as some plant extract chemicals
will kill I don't see they are any more valid in an organic garden than man
made ones.

All substances living or inert have elements in them which can be
expressed in chemical terms. Whether they are benign or malign depends
on how they are used. For example, a cup of water can kill if it is
consumed wrongly, whereas Joan takes Warfarin daily as a medicine.

The dose makes the poison. And it takes quite a bit more than a cup of
pure water to kill someone by toxicity (a couple of gallons or so).

BTW Warfarin is one of those nasty synthetic chemicals that you so
despise in gardening - originally intended as a rodenticide. It happens
to have useful effects in lower doses.

As with the word organic, the word chemical has several definitions. In
the context of organic horticulture, chemical refers to manufactured
chemical poisons such as herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, etc.
These are often (wrongly IMHO) all expressed as pesticides.

Standard definition for the chemicals intended to eliminate pests.

Along with
chemical fertilisers and lethal home-made potions none of them are
acceptable in commercial organic horticulture.

Though many of the would be Organic growers indulge in extremely
dangerous kitchen sink chemistry based on dubious recipes using
"natural" toxic ingredients on the web. Among the more dangerous ones
are those based on tobacco. It isn't all that hard to extract enough
nicotine from one or two cigarettes to kill a human if you use the right
solvent. And nicotine carries mosaic virus which is quite promiscuous in
the plants it will infect.

Non-commercial
recreational gardeners can do as they please, but those who wish to eat
properly safe organic food need to keep to commercial standards.

Those who want to market their expensive produce to the worried well
with a simple message under the Organic(TM) supermarket banner double
wrapped in multiple layers of plastic packaging and air freighted round
the world can do so with great profitability.

It is far better to go for minimum inputs farming where the least
possible amount of pesticides are used, but synthetic chemicals are
still allowed. Unfortunately, the most sensible farming methods do not
have the cult following of Organic(TM).

I am all for local farmers markets. But it is utterly ludicrous to have
Organic(TM) produce flown from Thailand causing far more pollution and
use of resources than the worst possible forms of local industrial
farming.

There may be different arrangements for so called 'Organic (TM)'
produce, but I have never discovered any food on sale under that name.
Could you detail where you have seen it?

What I meant by that is, the organic stuff sold in supermarkets and similar
which is produced on factory type farms like the other non-organic produce,
i.e. highly commercial, millions of £'s involved.......

No food can legally be sold for public consumption as organic unless it
carries an authorised symbol of organic quality. That guarantees it to
be in compliance with the regulations. There are cheats and tricksters
in any aspect of business, but anyone who tries to defraud organic
consumers risks losing their livelihood. If you know it to be happening,
report them, the bigger they are, the heavier they fall.

There are plenty of frauds based on using modern high tech analysis to
show that the pesticide residues in non-Organic(TM) crops are below the
limits of routine detection. The paperwork is then faked to come from
genuine organic locations by dubious middle men. There are several such
prosecutions in the pipeline but it remains to be seen if any
convictions will be made. The scientific evidence is hard to present to
a jury.

Organic(TM) products lacking in preservatives are also capable of
harbouring some extremely nasty bacteria and fungi producing toxins like
botulinum and aflotoxins. These are of course deliberately ignored by
the Soil Association because they conflict with their intended
simplistic message.

Evil natural residues in food can be every bit as dangerous as the
synthetic chemicals! Look back to historical cases of ergot poisoning
for example.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
In message , Alan Gould
writes
In article , Bob Hobden

writes

That's not my understanding Alan, I understood some chemicals and
"natural"
plant extract chemicals are allowed, and as some plant extract
chemicals
will kill I don't see they are any more valid in an organic garden
than man
made ones.

All substances living or inert have elements in them which can be
expressed in chemical terms. Whether they are benign or malign
depends
on how they are used. For example, a cup of water can kill if it is
consumed wrongly, whereas Joan takes Warfarin daily as a medicine.

The dose makes the poison. And it takes quite a bit more than a cup
of
pure water to kill someone by toxicity (a couple of gallons or so).

BTW Warfarin is one of those nasty synthetic chemicals that you so
despise in gardening - originally intended as a rodenticide. It
happens
to have useful effects in lower doses.

I, too, am rather surprised to hear that Joan is actually donsenting
to eating Warfarin. That puts orders of magnidude more rat poison
into her than she will ingest in a lifetime of eating non-organic
vegetables. How ironic. (I, too, eat Warfarin. I also enjoy
non-organic veggies as well as organic veggies)

As with the word organic, the word chemical has several
definitions. In
the context of organic horticulture, chemical refers to
manufactured
chemical poisons such as herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, etc.
These are often (wrongly IMHO) all expressed as pesticides.

Standard definition for the chemicals intended to eliminate pests.

Along with
chemical fertilisers and lethal home-made potions none of them are
acceptable in commercial organic horticulture.

Though many of the would be Organic growers indulge in extremely
dangerous kitchen sink chemistry based on dubious recipes using
"natural" toxic ingredients on the web. Among the more dangerous
ones
are those based on tobacco. It isn't all that hard to extract enough
nicotine from one or two cigarettes to kill a human if you use the
right
solvent. And nicotine carries mosaic virus which is quite
promiscuous in
the plants it will infect.

Non-commercial
recreational gardeners can do as they please, but those who wish to
eat
properly safe organic food need to keep to commercial standards.

Those who want to market their expensive produce to the worried well
with a simple message under the Organic(TM) supermarket banner
double
wrapped in multiple layers of plastic packaging and air freighted
round
the world can do so with great profitability.

It is far better to go for minimum inputs farming where the least
possible amount of pesticides are used, but synthetic chemicals are
still allowed. Unfortunately, the most sensible farming methods do
not
have the cult following of Organic(TM).

Hear hear.

I am all for local farmers markets. But it is utterly ludicrous to
have
Organic(TM) produce flown from Thailand causing far more pollution
and
use of resources than the worst possible forms of local industrial
farming.

There may be different arrangements for so called 'Organic (TM)'
produce, but I have never discovered any food on sale under that
name.
Could you detail where you have seen it?

What I meant by that is, the organic stuff sold in supermarkets
and similar
which is produced on factory type farms like the other non-organic
produce,
i.e. highly commercial, millions of £'s involved.......

No food can legally be sold for public consumption as organic
unless it
carries an authorised symbol of organic quality. That guarantees it
to
be in compliance with the regulations. There are cheats and
tricksters
in any aspect of business, but anyone who tries to defraud organic
consumers risks losing their livelihood. If you know it to be
happening,
report them, the bigger they are, the heavier they fall.

There are plenty of frauds based on using modern high tech analysis
to
show that the pesticide residues in non-Organic(TM) crops are below
the
limits of routine detection. The paperwork is then faked to come
from
genuine organic locations by dubious middle men. There are several
such
prosecutions in the pipeline but it remains to be seen if any
convictions will be made. The scientific evidence is hard to present
to
a jury.

Organic(TM) products lacking in preservatives are also capable of
harbouring some extremely nasty bacteria and fungi producing toxins
like
botulinum and aflotoxins. These are of course deliberately ignored
by
the Soil Association because they conflict with their intended
simplistic message.

Evil natural residues in food can be every bit as dangerous as the
synthetic chemicals! Look back to historical cases of ergot
poisoning
for example.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

In article , Martin Brown
writes
Though many of the would be Organic growers indulge in extremely
dangerous kitchen sink chemistry based on dubious recipes using
"natural" toxic ingredients on the web. Among the more dangerous ones
are those based on tobacco. It isn't all that hard to extract enough
nicotine from one or two cigarettes to kill a human if you use the right
solvent. And nicotine carries mosaic virus which is quite promiscuous in
the plants it will infect.

The use of nicotine is banned by law in any form of horticulture.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes
I, too, am rather surprised to hear that Joan is actually donsenting
to eating Warfarin. That puts orders of magnidude more rat poison
into her than she will ingest in a lifetime of eating non-organic
vegetables. How ironic. (I, too, eat Warfarin. I also enjoy
non-organic veggies as well as organic veggies)

Warfarin was prescribed along with other medication to Joan by her
doctor for a blood disorder. She has been taking it for several years
now and regular clinical tests show that it is of benefit to her.

I was not aware that non-organic vegetables contain rat poison, thanks
for the warning.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In article ,
Alan Gould wrote:
In article , Martin Brown
writes
Though many of the would be Organic growers indulge in extremely
dangerous kitchen sink chemistry based on dubious recipes using
"natural" toxic ingredients on the web. Among the more dangerous ones
are those based on tobacco. It isn't all that hard to extract enough
nicotine from one or two cigarettes to kill a human if you use the right
solvent. And nicotine carries mosaic virus which is quite promiscuous in
the plants it will infect.

The use of nicotine is banned by law in any form of horticulture.

In favour of ones that fill the pockets of the agrochemical companies
and cause much worse damage to the environment. Yes, nicotine is
seriously poisonous, but that's not the reason it was banned. It
was banned because it isn't patentable, and no company was prepared
to spend 6 figures on getting it permitted.

And nicotine does NOT carry any form of virus, though tobacco may.
I have no idea whether alcohol extraction will kill the virus.
However, it is nonsense to worry about that too much, as the virus
is common in the UK and spread by aphids.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Alan Gould wrote:
In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes
I, too, am rather surprised to hear that Joan is actually donsenting
to eating Warfarin. That puts orders of magnidude more rat poison
into her than she will ingest in a lifetime of eating non-organic
vegetables. How ironic. (I, too, eat Warfarin. I also enjoy
non-organic veggies as well as organic veggies)

Warfarin was prescribed along with other medication to Joan by her
doctor for a blood disorder. She has been taking it for several years
now and regular clinical tests show that it is of benefit to her.

I was not aware that non-organic vegetables contain rat poison, thanks
for the warning.

So do some organic ones. The plant with the largest concentration
that I know of is woodruff.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Martin" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 18:00:54 +0100, "Tumbleweed"
wrote:


"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 30 Oct 2004 09:21:13 +0000 (UTC), "anton"
wrote:


"Alan Gould" wrote in message
.. .

Soil Association are carrying out detailed research into pesticides
commonly encountered in non-organic fruit and vegetables.

That's strange. To arrive at a balanced view, they also ought to carry
out
detailed research into pesticides encountered in _organic_ fruit &
vegetables, too.

We already know it's minimal and all natural.

because an independent body has carried out detailed research into
"natural" pesticides used in organic gardening?




So natural posions are OK whilst 'unnatural' ones arent? Same goes, no
doubt
for 'unnatural' cancer-causing agents whilst 'natural' ones are ok?
Break out the hemlock and serve with a chilled lettuce.

Iceberg lettuce, Tumbleweed?

tasteless.... and carcinogenic. no thanks.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

In message , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Alan Gould wrote:
In article , Martin Brown
writes
Though many of the would be Organic growers indulge in extremely
dangerous kitchen sink chemistry based on dubious recipes using
"natural" toxic ingredients on the web. Among the more dangerous ones
are those based on tobacco. It isn't all that hard to extract enough
nicotine from one or two cigarettes to kill a human if you use the right
solvent. And nicotine carries mosaic virus which is quite promiscuous in
the plants it will infect.

The use of nicotine is banned by law in any form of horticulture.

That doesn't stop people trying to do this at home. The web is full of
silly recipes for various unlicenced dodgy brews that are really scary
given that they may be made in a kitchen.

In favour of ones that fill the pockets of the agrochemical companies
and cause much worse damage to the environment. Yes, nicotine is
seriously poisonous, but that's not the reason it was banned. It
was banned because it isn't patentable, and no company was prepared
to spend 6 figures on getting it permitted.

And nicotine does NOT carry any form of virus, though tobacco may.
I have no idea whether alcohol extraction will kill the virus.

It didn't. There was some trouble with it in the old days when it was
used. These days orchid growers are paranoid about not having anyone
smoking in their greenhouse. Apparently the live virus can be dispersed
in smoke.

However, it is nonsense to worry about that too much, as the virus
is common in the UK and spread by aphids.

Indeed. Though in a controlled greenhouse environment it can be kept
out.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

In message , Alan Gould
writes
In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes
I, too, am rather surprised to hear that Joan is actually donsenting
to eating Warfarin. That puts orders of magnidude more rat poison
into her than she will ingest in a lifetime of eating non-organic
vegetables. How ironic. (I, too, eat Warfarin. I also enjoy
non-organic veggies as well as organic veggies)

Warfarin was prescribed along with other medication to Joan by her
doctor for a blood disorder. She has been taking it for several years
now and regular clinical tests show that it is of benefit to her.

It will be. But if you are prepared to ingest toxic synthetic chemicals
for their beneficial effects in humans why do you have such an
irrational fear of all synthetic chemicals that are used in agriculture?

Some synthetic chemicals *are* bad, but by no means all of them.

And some of the synthetic chemicals banned by the Soil Association are
environmentally benign. They are banned only to have a simple marketing
message to con the worried well into overpaying for the Organic(TM)
brand.

I was not aware that non-organic vegetables contain rat poison, thanks
for the warning.

Most of the legume family synthesise things intended to seriously damage
rodent reproduction - the soya bean is extremely potent. Quite amazing
that they are safe for humans to eat. Many other plants have seriously
toxic seeds. Several in my greenhouse provide natural rodent bait.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

In article ,
Martin Brown writes:
|
| The use of nicotine is banned by law in any form of horticulture.
|
| That doesn't stop people trying to do this at home. The web is full of
| silly recipes for various unlicenced dodgy brews that are really scary
| given that they may be made in a kitchen.

Yes. I am pretty casual about using kitchen equipment for Bordeaux
mixture, but the lethal dose of copper is 1+ gram, and we need a few
microgrammes a day. So I wash it until I can't see green, and then
leave it in the washing up.

Nicotine is another matter entirely ....

| And nicotine does NOT carry any form of virus, though tobacco may.
| I have no idea whether alcohol extraction will kill the virus.
|
| It didn't. There was some trouble with it in the old days when it was
| used. These days orchid growers are paranoid about not having anyone
| smoking in their greenhouse. Apparently the live virus can be dispersed
| in smoke.

Boggle. Now, THAT'S tough.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 10/31/04 11:42 AM, in article ,
"Alan Gould" wrote:

In article , Bob Hobden
writes

That's not my understanding Alan, I understood some chemicals and "natural"
plant extract chemicals are allowed, and as some plant extract chemicals
will kill I don't see they are any more valid in an organic garden than man
made ones.

All substances living or inert have elements in them which can be
expressed in chemical terms. Whether they are benign or malign depends
on how they are used. For example, a cup of water can kill if it is
consumed wrongly, whereas Joan takes Warfarin daily as a medicine.

As with the word organic, the word chemical has several definitions. In
the context of organic horticulture, chemical refers to manufactured
chemical poisons such as herbicides, insecticides, fungicides, etc.
These are often (wrongly IMHO) all expressed as pesticides. Along with
chemical fertilisers and lethal home-made potions none of them are
acceptable in commercial organic horticulture. Non-commercial
recreational gardeners can do as they please, but those who wish to eat
properly safe organic food need to keep to commercial standards.

There may be different arrangements for so called 'Organic (TM)'
produce, but I have never discovered any food on sale under that name.
Could you detail where you have seen it?

What I meant by that is, the organic stuff sold in supermarkets and similar
which is produced on factory type farms like the other non-organic produce,
i.e. highly commercial, millions of £'s involved.......

No food can legally be sold for public consumption as organic unless it
carries an authorised symbol of organic quality. That guarantees it to
be in compliance with the regulations. There are cheats and tricksters
in any aspect of business, but anyone who tries to defraud organic
consumers risks losing their livelihood. If you know it to be happening,
report them, the bigger they are, the heavier they fall.
Hi Alan
I appreciate the information you have provided and I try to follow the
'organic' philosophy. I do have a question regarding the term organic.
Although I use organic methods and can therefore call my vegetables organic,
I cannot call them 'Certified Organic". My point being that certified means
just that. Farmers who are Certified Organic are inspected by the governing
body to ensure they are following the rules. As you say, should it be
discovered they are not, then they would instantly lose the right to use the
term Certified Organic.
I have worked on two different Certified Organic farms here in BC and
both farmers are organic...nuts...certified even! Even under dire insect
attacks on their crops they absolutely refuse to use any pesticide that will
kill the pests...
Gary
Fort Langley, BC
Canada

In article , Gary
writes
Hi Alan
I appreciate the information you have provided and I try to follow the
'organic' philosophy. I do have a question regarding the term organic.
Although I use organic methods and can therefore call my vegetables organic,
I cannot call them 'Certified Organic". My point being that certified means
just that. Farmers who are Certified Organic are inspected by the governing
body to ensure they are following the rules. As you say, should it be
discovered they are not, then they would instantly lose the right to use the
term Certified Organic.
I have worked on two different Certified Organic farms here in BC and
both farmers are organic...nuts...certified even! Even under dire insect
attacks on their crops they absolutely refuse to use any pesticide that will
kill the pests...
Gary
Fort Langley, BC
Canada

Thank you Gary for your perceptive response, I will try to go over your
points briefly. It has long been recognised that the term organic can
lead to misconceptions about the style of horticulture being referred
to. It derives from the idea of working with living organisms rather
than inert substances, but an organic system will include inert objects
such as stones, garden tools etc. while a non-organic one includes
living plants, insects etc. Gardening is not an exact science.

You can call your vegetables organic if you wish, but you cannot legally
sell them as organic unless you are registered by a recognised authority
as a suitable grower - i.e. your produce is 'certified' (yes, another
variable expression!) In UK any produce being sold as organic must carry
a symbol which indicates its observance to legal requirements.

Organic systems can be vulnerable to pests just as non-organic ones can.
The difference of dealing with them is mainly in prevention, good
hygiene and the use of natural predators rather than using pesticides.
Prevention includes crop rotation, use of healthy seeds, plants, compost
and equipment. These methods may seem onerous compared to the short cut
of pesticides, but once an organic system is fully established, it
requires much less work, attention and expenditure and IMHO it is much
more pleasant and rewarding to carry out.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.