In article , Brian Watson
writes

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...

That's not to say I wouldn't help a child in distress - but I am not
going to fill in my pond in case someone else lets their child wander
round it unattended.

The issue is about taking reasonable precautions.

If you have let people with children onto your property and you are aware
there is a hazard, and it appears from the postings so far that "other
people's ponds" are a hazard for children, it makes sense to tell the
visitors about it.

Of course it does. It does not make sense for me to fill in my pond,
surround it by an impenetrable fence or cover it with a grid.

Nor does it fall to me to keep an eye on visitors' children. Obviously,
if I notice we are a child missing, I will alert the parents. And if I
am aware that a child is heading towards a hazard, I will head it back
the other way and warn its parents. But the responsibility for the
child's welfare is with them, unless they have asked me, and I have
agreed, to look after the child on their behalf.

I wonder if you would be as cavalier about your children when they were on
other people's property?

Of course I would. What my children do on other people's property is my
responsibility. I wouldn't dream of expecting my host or any of the
other guests to take on that responsibility. Nor would I blame my host
if they hadn't pointed out all hazards to me - it is difficult for
someone without young children to know or remember all the ways in which
they can get into trouble.

I would have been grateful if someone had pointed out such hazards when my
children were young enough to make such potentially- dangerous errors of
judgement.

Of course you would have been. You are not, I hope, suggesting that I
have argued anywhere against pointing out hazards?
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 18:02:27 -0000, Brian Watson wrote:

I would have been grateful if someone had pointed out such hazards
when my children were young enough to make such potentially-
dangerous errors of judgement.

So would I but I would not rely on it or even expect it. The safety of
my children is my responsibility. When you have kids, you should be
constantly doing a risk and hazard assessment of the enviroment and
what they are up too.

--
Cheers
Dave. Remove "spam" for valid email.

Paul Kelly wrote:

"Trevor Barton" wrote in message
...
David wrote:
More children drown in the bath than in garden ponds and most children
who drown in ponds are between 1 and 2 yrs old who shouldn't be out
unsupervised anyway, supervise then educate, don't childproof the world

Quite. Exposure to some degree of danger is part of the way all children
learn about the world and its hazards. Education, no matter how young
the child, is a more responsible attitude to take than removing dangers.
You aren't going to be able to remove the dangers for ever, start, now, to
realise that, and you'll all be better off as the child grows up.

Trev

So, you have a hot iron and need to leave the room to get something, so you
say to your 2 year old "Don't touch" ?

No, that would be stupid. It's very easy to pull an iron down on your head
(if you're two).

In the garden, you have a bonfire. You go away and leave it while your 2
year old plays in the garden?

No, that would be stupid, it's very easy to walk or run into a bonfire (if
you're two).

You have a garden pond and take no physical precautions to keep your 2 year
old out of the pond?

If you read my other post in this thread you'd have seen that I suggested
putting some sort of barrier up in conjunction with education. The barrier
does not have to be substantial, but to serve as a reminder to the child
that it's something not to cross.

Try a google search for "drowning in garden ponds"



From http://www.dti.gov.uk/homesafetynetwork/dw_stats.htm

Overall Summary of the garden drownings figures for data period 1992 – 1999

Only 24% of the UK fatal drowning incidents in domestic gardens, 1992 to
1999, involving children of 5 or under occurred at the child's home.
Children are most at risk from drowning in the gardens of neighbours,
relatives or friends. 69% of the incidents involved garden ponds.

So all that says is that 76% or fatal child drownings in gardens don't
happen in your garden. You'd be better off filling in your neighbour's
pond, then, wouldn't you?

Summary – Garden Ponds
Over the last eight years 62 children, aged 5 and under, have drowned in
garden ponds. This is an average of eight a year. This is relatively
constant.

And almost vanishingly small compared with other causes of infant mortality.
Compare it with the more than 8 people, many of them children, who die every
*day* on the roads. Do you not take your child on the road? If not, why not?

Over 85% involved one or two year old children.

Many many more than 8 under two year olds die every year from SIDS (cot
death). Compared with that one, which you can do nothing about, drowning
in a pond is such a small risk as to not be significant.

In any means, of all the multitude of things that's likely to kill your
children before they reach adulthood, pond drowning in your own pond
is such a tiny thing it's really not something you ought to be overly
concerned about. Become an advanced driver (through the IAM training).
You're much more likely not to kill your children than you would be if
you fill in your pond.

Trev

In message , Paul Kelly
writes

"Chris French and Helen Johnson" wrote in
message ...
In message , Nick Maclaren

Sure small children shouldn't be left unsupervised in the garden, but it
may only take a few moments for a child to get them selves into a sticky
situation


ie die

Well maybe, but probably not. As you point out elsewhere, there are very
few child deaths due to drowning in garden ponds. I would guess a lot
more trip/fall in etc and get a fright (their parents also....) and
learn a good lesson for the future.

I'm not arguing against people fencing or otherwise protecting children
from falling in their pond (as the partial quote you made was making
clear), just that the importance and necessity of it may be overstated
--
Chris French and Helen Johnson, Leeds
urg Suppliers and References FAQ:
http://www.familyfrench.co.uk/garden/urgfaq/index.html

In message , Paul Kelly
writes

"Trevor Barton" wrote in message
.. .
David wrote:
More children drown in the bath than in garden ponds and most children
who drown in ponds are between 1 and 2 yrs old who shouldn't be out
unsupervised anyway, supervise then educate, don't childproof the world

Quite. Exposure to some degree of danger is part of the way all children
learn about the world and its hazards. Education, no matter how young
the child, is a more responsible attitude to take than removing dangers.
You aren't going to be able to remove the dangers for ever, start, now, to
realise that, and you'll all be better off as the child grows up.

Trev

So, you have a hot iron and need to leave the room to get something, so you
say to your 2 year old "Don't touch" ?

No, she would come with me (though she does have a very goo grasp on the
concept of 'hot' AFAICT), more likely she'd pull it onto her head and
give herself a nasty bump.

In the garden, you have a bonfire. You go away and leave it while your 2
year old plays in the garden?

No.

You have a garden pond and take no physical precautions to keep your 2 year
old out of the pond?

No, neither do I have any physical precautions against her running into
a bonfire, I wouldn't leave her in the garden with a bonfire, I wouldn't
leave her running round unattended at all in the garden, the pond is not
the only risk.

Try a google search for "drowning in garden ponds"




snip

Which confirms what I always thought anyway.

1. as a cause of child deaths, drowning in ponds is very uncommon, there
are much greater risks to my daughter.

2. most occur in other peoples gardens, rather than the child's own, so
the real risk of drowning in our pond is even lower.


I'm not saying that there is no risk, there is of course, as there are
many risks faced everyday. Some people may feel that they need to fill
in there pond some cover it, some fence it etc. That's fair enough, I
have no problem with that.

My response to this particular risk is observation and education.
--
Chris French and Helen Johnson, Leeds
urg Suppliers and References FAQ:
http://www.familyfrench.co.uk/garden/urgfaq/index.html

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ill.network...
On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 18:02:27 -0000, Brian Watson wrote:

I would have been grateful if someone had pointed out such hazards
when my children were young enough to make such potentially-
dangerous errors of judgement.

So would I but I would not rely on it or even expect it. The safety of
my children is my responsibility. When you have kids, you should be
constantly doing a risk and hazard assessment of the enviroment and
what they are up too.

All I said was "I'd be grateful ..." as I think it's only common decency to
do it.

I am not one who subscribes to the theory that "there is no such thing as
community" or "society", or whatever it was the silly old bat said.
--
Brian
"Not quite an Angel"

In article , Brian Watson
writes
The issue is about taking reasonable precautions.

If you have let people with children onto your property and you are aware
there is a hazard, and it appears from the postings so far that "other
people's ponds" are a hazard for children, it makes sense to tell the
visitors about it.

Good God - all my visitors know me and hence know that I have several
ponds and lots of rocks that children can damage themselves on!! I don't
need to tell every visitor every time they come and visit me.
When my children were little and we went somewhere new, I always made
sure I kept my eye on them *all the time*. I would even let them have
minor 'accidents' to let them learn. They always knew that if I warned
them about something, then that something was something to avoid for a
very good reason - and they always remembered.
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

In article , Kay Easton
writes
Of course I would. What my children do on other people's property is my
responsibility.

Reminds me of Cormaic's . . . um . . . bellow when he found the children
absailing ?sp down our shed roof )))))))))

--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

In article , Paul Kelly
writes


Only 18% drowned in their own gardens.
29% drowned while visiting, or being cared for, at a relative’s home.
10% drowned while their parents were visiting a friend’s home.
The largest percentage (39%) drowned in a neighbour’s pond after wandering
away from their own home or the home of the people they were visiting.

Probably the percentage is so high because they had been so
overprotected they had no idea of the danger associated with water!!!!!
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

In article , Jane Ransom
writes
In article , Paul Kelly
writes


Only 18% drowned in their own gardens.
29% drowned while visiting, or being cared for, at a relative’s home.
10% drowned while their parents were visiting a friend’s home.
The largest percentage (39%) drowned in a neighbour’s pond after wandering
away from their own home or the home of the people they were visiting.

Probably the percentage is so high because they had been so
overprotected they had no idea of the danger associated with water!!!!!

Within the last 6 months we have been forced, by public pressure, to
build a fence around the village pond despite the fact that the pond has
been there since god was a boy and no record or memory of there being
any incident concerning it, we are truly becoming a nanny state.
The latest is that the fence isn't good enough as a child could still
get through it, next we'll have to fence off all roads as well
--
David

In article ,
Jane Ransom wrote:
In article , Brian Watson
writes
The issue is about taking reasonable precautions.

If you have let people with children onto your property and you are aware
there is a hazard, and it appears from the postings so far that "other
people's ponds" are a hazard for children, it makes sense to tell the
visitors about it.

Good God - all my visitors know me and hence know that I have several
ponds and lots of rocks that children can damage themselves on!! I don't
need to tell every visitor every time they come and visit me.

I did get a little concerned when my brother came, because I had both
Brugmansia and Gloriosa in the conservatory, so I enquired about his
children's eating habits. There was no problem.

The reason for the concern is that those are SERIOUSLY poisonous, and
not just bellyache fodder.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

In message , David
writes
Within the last 6 months we have been forced, by public pressure, to
build a fence around the village pond despite the fact that the pond has
been there since god was a boy and no record or memory of there being
any incident concerning it, we are truly becoming a nanny state.
The latest is that the fence isn't good enough as a child could still
get through it, next we'll have to fence off all roads as well

Next thing will be a child injuring themselves climbing over the
fence......
--
Chris French and Helen Johnson, Leeds
urg Suppliers and References FAQ:
http://www.familyfrench.co.uk/garden/urgfaq/index.html

Jane Ransom wrote:
In article , Brian Watson
writes
The issue is about taking reasonable precautions.

If you have let people with children onto your property and you are aware
there is a hazard, and it appears from the postings so far that "other
people's ponds" are a hazard for children, it makes sense to tell the
visitors about it.

Good God - all my visitors know me and hence know that I have several
ponds and lots of rocks that children can damage themselves on!! I don't
need to tell every visitor every time they come and visit me.
When my children were little and we went somewhere new, I always made
sure I kept my eye on them *all the time*. I would even let them have
minor 'accidents' to let them learn. They always knew that if I warned
them about something, then that something was something to avoid for a
very good reason - and they always remembered.

Perhaps you should run safety briefings when people come to visit, with
periodic refresher courses, produce a safety manual and get them to
sign that they've read and accepted it before they can sit down ;-)

The part about keeping an eye on them all the time is telling, in my
view. Too often people abdicate responsibility for their own safety
on others, which is why we are developing the litigation culture
that seems to be so prevalent in other parts of the world. Your
safety and that of your kids is primarilly your responsibility, noone
elses, and it's entirely up to *you* to eveluate the dangers of any
situation you place your kids in and act accordingly. If there are
*normal* hazards, and I think a pond in a garden you are visiting is
a normal hazard, you need to ensure your kids don't drown in it, not
your host. Of course it does boil down to your perception of "normal",
but I'd class a garden pond on one side of that divide, and a loaded
shotgun in the kid'd playbox on the other. I think you'd be right
to be agrieved (sp?) if you weren't warned about that one before your
kids played with the toys!

And you're right about letting them learn, too.

Trev

In message . network,
Dave Liquorice writes
No, say "Hot" or "Hot, don't touch." but it may be best to avoid the
"don't touch" part as that makes said 2 year old curious, "Why
shouldn't I touch it?". By saying "Hot" or "Hot, don't touch" you are
telling the child *why* they shouldn't touch.

By 2 both of my children knew what hot meant and touching things that
are hot was a bad idea. They learn't that mainly by the repeated verbal
association of hot and don't touch and very occasional encounters with
hot objects.

Both our dogs understand "Hot!" too!

Klara


--

Get yourself some welded mesh. Have a search on google for local supplier.
The one I used 3 years ago no longer exists. I went for 1" squares and about
3mm guage (thickness). I attached this to a wooden frame made from 2"x1",
attaching the mesh to the 1" side. I made this large enough to cover the
whole pond which is kidney shaped and approx 9' by 5'. The resulting frame
is strong enough for mee to wak accross (11stone) and way to heavy for a
toddle to shift.
I rest the frame on the rocks surrounding the pond a house bricks where it
rest on the path. That way frogs, newts & toads have easy access.

My daughter, nearly 2, can see the fish can lean on the mesh to feed them
and we feel very safe when she is in the garden with us.

Hoep that helps

AndyP

--
"Wisest are they that know they do not know." Socrates
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above
hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world" JRR Toliken, The Hobbit