I love the look of mature Japanese White pine but I am a beginner.
I've been told these trees are not for beginners because of the
complexities of watering them.


There's nothing complex about watering a pine. What's complex is pruning them.

Are these trees grafted? (answer: yes.) You don't want to invest a
lot of money in a grafted tree unless you know what you're getting
into. I bought a [cheap] grafted white pine, oh, ten years ago, and
while it's been educational learning how to prune, it's never going
to be a good bonsai: the rootstock is growing at a much-faster rate
than the top, making it look pretty dreadful.

Buy ungrafted stock, or buy stock from someone who's grafting the
tree inconspicuously with the intention that the tree be used for
bonsai.
--
Nina Shishkoff

Riverhead, NY

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John wrote:

A local nursery has some Japanese White Pine (5 needle) that are
under
a foot tall and have a two inch diameter trunk. They are asking
$90.

I love the look of mature Japanese White pine but I am a
beginner.
I've been told these trees are not for beginners because of the
complexities of watering them.

I haven't killed any of my 10 trees yet including the two that I
started with - the dreaded Serissa (in full bloom for the third
time
since I got it) and the Juniper mallsai. Everything is
flourishing
under lights/near a window with 30% humidity and a circulating
fan at
around 68 degrees F. The Pine would have to be kept at the 32
degrees
F that the nursery has it at and I have a place for it in the
basement
until Spring.

Should I give it a shot? Is it worth $90?

==============================

No. Not if you are planning on keeping it inside.

If you can keep it outside ALL year, take Nina's advice to heart
and look hard at the trunk. It probably IS grafted. Is the
graft obvious? It (probably) can only get worse.

I like 5-needle pine, too -- MUCH better than Black pine! -- but
an ugly graft is an UGLY graft.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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----- Original Message -----
From: "John - NJ"
Jim:
No offense but you've got this weird fixation about keeping plants
inside. We do what we must under our very different circumstances to
keep our plants healthy and alive.
Thanks, John
------------

Sure, and when we keep our white pines indoors, we kill them. There's a
difference between those trees that will tolerate the unsatisfactory
conditions of indoor cultivation and those that will not. Growing bonsai
indoors not only means different needs and concerns, it also means different
species. It pays to learn the difference.

Growing bonsai indoors is best left to those with lots of experience, not
those just starting out. It's not a fixation, John, it is concern for your
trees' health and your prolonged enthusiasm. Best of luck!

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas

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Jim:

No offense but you've got this weird fixation about keeping
plants
inside. We do what we must under our very different
circumstances to
keep our plants healthy and alive.


Oh, foo. I am merely trying to help. No need to get smarmy.

Pines are OUTdoor trees. I know of NO pine that will survive
indoors. If you want to spend $90 on a plant that WILL die if
kept inside, it's your $90.

I will also note that there is NO plant whose natural habitat is
inside a human-built structure.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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"I will also note that there is NO plant whose natural habitat is
inside a human-built structure."

Which makes lot of sense. I also saw the below post:

"Growing bonsai indoors is best left to those with lots of experience, not
those just starting out."

So I'm guessing even those sold as "indoor bonsai" are just barely able to
be kept alive for a rank amature?

About 20 years ago I decided I liked bonsai. Since I'm in S.E. Wisconsin I
thought an indoor bonsai would be better. To date I have not bought one
even though I've seen a number of them I liked.

Now I am disabled and more able to devote time to one, and more than willing
to read and learn, and happy I found this newsgroup too, is there any
suggestion as to which is heartier for indoors.
Where I live now I can't give any plant a south facing window, would a plant
light help or should I continue looking and learning?

Name is Bill, or Olde....thanks for any info.

Olde Hippie

--
to reply direct remove number from addy

"Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts will"
"I prefer to perambulate to the tempo of a different percussionist"
"Stupidity is believing much, while understanding little"
....Charles A. Meyers

"I will also note that there is NO plant whose natural habitat
is
inside a human-built structure."

Which makes lot of sense. I also saw the below post:

"Growing bonsai indoors is best left to those with lots of
experience, not
those just starting out."

So I'm guessing even those sold as "indoor bonsai" are just
barely able to
be kept alive for a rank amature?

About 20 years ago I decided I liked bonsai. Since I'm in S.E.
Wisconsin I
thought an indoor bonsai would be better. To date I have not
bought one
even though I've seen a number of them I liked.

Now I am disabled and more able to devote time to one, and more
than willing
to read and learn, and happy I found this newsgroup too, is
there any
suggestion as to which is heartier for indoors.
Where I live now I can't give any plant a south facing window,
would a plant
light help or should I continue looking and learning?


Well. Welcome to bonsai -- and have at it. While there are no
natural born "indoor plants," there ARE trees that will do OK
indoors (and they're NOT pines ;-). I don't grow "indoor trees"
so I'll leave the hows and wherefores to people who do --
Jerry? -- but you may want to search for books on indoor bonsai
by Bonsai's most unpronounceable name: Paul Lesniewicz. You
should be able to find affordable copies used at
www.abebooks.com. You might look at one (or several) of the
Ficus (fig) species to start.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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Hi Bill,

Welcome to the list and to bonsai. In addition to Jim's advice, I'd add
that just because your in Wisconsin is no reason not to grow your bonsai
outdoors (no tropicals, mind you. ;-). In answer to your question, those
sold as "indoor bonsai" are in many cases nothing of the sort. Make sure
you know what you're buying (and know all of that species' care
requirements) BEFORE you buy. I'd suggest a Chinese elm or a juniper to
start. Good luck!

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
------------------------

----- Original Message -----
From: "oldehippie"
I also saw the below post:
"Growing bonsai indoors is best left to those with lots of experience, not
those just starting out."
So I'm guessing even those sold as "indoor bonsai" are just barely able to
be kept alive for a rank amature?
About 20 years ago I decided I liked bonsai. Since I'm in S.E. Wisconsin
I
thought an indoor bonsai would be better. To date I have not bought one
even though I've seen a number of them I liked.
Now I am disabled and more able to devote time to one, and more than
willing
to read and learn, and happy I found this newsgroup too, is there any
suggestion as to which is heartier for indoors.
Where I live now I can't give any plant a south facing window, would a
plant
light help or should I continue looking and learning?
Name is Bill, or Olde....thanks for any info.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Jerry Meislik++++
************************************************** ******************************
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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

"Growing bonsai indoors is best left to those with lots of experience, not
those just starting out."

So I'm guessing even those sold as "indoor bonsai" are just barely able to
be kept alive for a rank amature?

It depends. When I lived in a house with a sunporch, indoor bonsai
were easy: my serissa *flourished*. Some people on this list have
cool conservatories, or elaborate lighting and humidifying systems.
Any of these things make indoor bonsai possible. Maybe even
junipers. However, the average person with a sunny windowsill has to
bite the bullet. I keep my "indoor" bonsai outdoors as much as
possible, and consider their winter confinment to be a necessary
evil. Also, as I will be the first to admit, my indoor bonsai are
spindly, crummy looking specimens, not real bonsai. They are more
like beloved pets. My real bonsai are outdoor bonsai. If I lived in
Florida, like Jim, I'd have tropical plants that would STILL be
outdoor bonsai. Because nothing beats outdoor conditions for
vigorous, healthy, attractive plants.


Now I am disabled and more able to devote time to one, and more than willing
to read and learn, and happy I found this newsgroup too, is there any
suggestion as to which is heartier for indoors.
Where I live now I can't give any plant a south facing window, would a plant
light help or should I continue looking and learning?


Perhaps this is sacrilege, but have you considered orchids? Or
pachycauls? There are lots of wonderful plants in the world that are
easier to keep indoors than bonsai. If I didn't have bonsai, I think
I'd collect Dorstenia.

--
Nina Shishkoff

Riverhead, NY

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oldehippie wrote:

"I will also note that there is NO plant whose natural habitat is
inside a human-built structure."


Most Ficus plants do well inside with the addition of fluorescent lights
fairly close to the apex of the tree. My choice for indoors is a
Bougainvillea. They bloom during the coldest part of the year, and it
is a joy, while snow is falling to be able to enjoy the colorful Bracts
develop.

Which makes lot of sense. I also saw the below post:

"Growing bonsai indoors is best left to those with lots of experience, not
those just starting out."

So I'm guessing even those sold as "indoor bonsai" are just barely able to
be kept alive for a rank amature?

I have to agree to some extent, but both of theabove mentioned specie do
well indoors.

Now I am disabled and more able to devote time to one, and more than willing
to read and learn, and happy I found this newsgroup too, is there any
suggestion as to which is heartier for indoors.

Where I live now I can't give any plant a south facing window, would a plant
light help or should I continue looking and learning?


Absolutely, There are those that use Halide with great success. I use
fluorescents and I am quite happy with my trees. Of course, I am not
raising trees to show, just for my own pleasure.


Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7
http://bmee.net/rosner
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48


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Welcome to the list - I'm a newbie as well, so here is something from the
voice of inexperience...I started off the winter with a Serrisa and a couple
of Ficus' underneath 3 double flourescents. Then after reading a bunch of
stuff here about Metal Halides, I got one of those on e-Bay. I now have
several Ficus', a Fukien Tea, 2 Calomondian oranges, a Jerusalem Cherry, a
Rosemary, and some Jade under the the flourescents and Metal Halide. I keep
the ones that need the most light under the Metal Halide and the others
under the flourescent. I also have a cold air humidifier going at all
times. Now I'm new at this - so have no experience at all - and my trees
are growing like crazy. I spend a goodly amount of time on the weekends
keeping them clipped, so they don't get bushy. I relocated my Serrisa's and
a Fukien Tea to a East facing window where they get great morning sun and
they are doing really well (the Serrisa's once they "recovered" from being
moved). So, if they can survive me - anyone willing to take the time
necessary to care for them should be ok. I'd recommend Ficus, Fukien Tea or
Jade as being relatively easy to care for and not too particular (the
exception being don't over-water). If you want something fairly "bullet
proof" and don't mind spending a little extra, you might try
http://www.fukubonsai.com where you can purchase "true" Indoor Bonsai. Good
luck.

Jeff Isom
Cleveland, OH / Sunset Zone 39


oldehippie wrote:

"I will also note that there is NO plant whose natural habitat is
inside a human-built structure."


Most Ficus plants do well inside with the addition of fluorescent lights
fairly close to the apex of the tree. My choice for indoors is a
Bougainvillea. They bloom during the coldest part of the year, and it
is a joy, while snow is falling to be able to enjoy the colorful Bracts
develop.

Which makes lot of sense. I also saw the below post:

"Growing bonsai indoors is best left to those with lots of experience, not
those just starting out."

So I'm guessing even those sold as "indoor bonsai" are just barely able to
be kept alive for a rank amature?

I have to agree to some extent, but both of theabove mentioned specie do
well indoors.

Now I am disabled and more able to devote time to one, and more than
willing
to read and learn, and happy I found this newsgroup too, is there any
suggestion as to which is heartier for indoors.

Where I live now I can't give any plant a south facing window, would a
plant
light help or should I continue looking and learning?


Absolutely, There are those that use Halide with great success. I use
fluorescents and I am quite happy with my trees. Of course, I am not
raising trees to show, just for my own pleasure.


Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7

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On Wed, 19 Feb 2003 19:55:07 -0500, Jim Lewis
wrote:

I will also note that there is NO plant whose natural habitat is
inside a human-built structure.

Jim:

Apology accepted. g

This tree and any other I have in the house right now, like the
Juniper, would go outside. They're inside now because they did not go
through the normal Fall into Winter cycle. If I put them out now they
might not survive. The Juniper came from {shudder} THE MALL and it's
growing nicely under the lights.

There's a cold space in the basement that stays around 32 degrees. The
pine would stay there until it starts to warm up. Then out they go.

****Are all of the JWP grafts? Can you buy one that's not a graft?
If yes, where and how much?

Thanks, John

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