My Zelkova came from its winter habitat with leaves breaking
and looking fine until this week I see that while leaves are
opening on many brances, there are also many dead twigs.
It has not been bothered by the colder two winters before this
one, so I am puzzled and the only reference I can find that
offers some help is the possibility that "it needs light in
the winter" which it did not have much of this year.
Is this a condition anyone can enlighten me further on?

Lynn

Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA

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My Zelkova came from its winter habitat with leaves breaking
and looking fine until this week I see that while leaves are
opening on many brances, there are also many dead twigs.
It has not been bothered by the colder two winters before this
one, so I am puzzled and the only reference I can find that
offers some help is the possibility that "it needs light in
the winter" which it did not have much of this year.
Is this a condition anyone can enlighten me further on?


Deciduous trees don't need light.

Are the dead twigs grouped together in specific areas of the
tree?

Are they only at tips of branches?

If the first, suspect a root problem, perhaps too wet.

If the second, was the tree exposed to drying wind? I almost
always have twig dieback on my hackberry trees, usually about the
top 1/3 of the branch tips -- so I let the trees get a bit ragged
late in the year. I don't have a Zelkova.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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Deciduous trees don't need light. [in winter]

That's not entirely accurate I don't think Jim. Certainly the deciduous tree
lacks the food synthesizing structures (leaves) in winter, but light also
plays a role in other functions of the tree's growth (or lack of
growth)(photomorphogenic response?). It's my understanding that
photoreceptors other than chloroplasts trigger such diverse actions as
initial leaf-out and flowering. These photoreceptors-- most notably and the
only ones I know even a tiny amount about being phytochromes and
cryptochromes-- respond to blue or red ends of the light spectrum.

Peter Adams has long held the anecdotal notion that Chinese Elm, even when
dormant, appreciate bright light or else really fine ramification will be
shed in spring. I'm not aware of any research with regard to Ulmus, but it's
possible that they are especially sensitive to drastic changes in those
wavelengths of light and react accordingly.

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David J. Bockman"
Deciduous trees don't need light. [in winter]

That's not entirely accurate I don't think Jim. ...
snip
Peter Adams has long held the anecdotal notion that Chinese Elm, even when
dormant, appreciate bright light or else really fine ramification will be
shed in spring. I'm not aware of any research with regard to Ulmus, but
it's
possible that they are especially sensitive to drastic changes in those
wavelengths of light and react accordingly
David J. Bockman
---------------------

Years ago, I read this bit from Peter Adams and while I respect him as a
bonsai artist and grower, I've never found any relationship to Chinese elms
kept in darkness in winter and branch/shoot loss. I sometimes keep mine in
my garage in winter for weeks at a time and have never lost any ramification
from them. I would hesitate to put any stock in this theory.

Kind regards,
Andy Rutledge
zone 8, Texas
www.bunjindesign.com/bonsai/

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I disagree.

In my 40 years of growing bonsai I have learned, from practical
experience and higher education, that light is NOT necessary for
dormant bonsai when temperatures are low, (below 30F). I have numerous
masterpiece bonsai as evidence, lots of them with fine, very delicate
twigs. Yes, this even applies to evergreens, both narrow-leaf and
broad-leaf. Many of my students normally burry their small bonsai 100%
in a perlite/peat mixture with great results.

Please note this does NOT apply to areas of the world where there is
not a sustained period of cold (below 30F). If warm temperatures occur,
then light is necessary.

Basically, it it is cold, you don't need light. If it is warm, you need
light.

Hope this helps.

Bill

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I asserted:

Deciduous trees don't need light. [in winter]

David declaimed:

That's not entirely accurate I don't think Jim. Certainly the
deciduous tree
lacks the food synthesizing structures (leaves) in winter, but
light also
plays a role in other functions of the tree's growth (or lack
of
growth)(photomorphogenic response?). It's my understanding that
photoreceptors other than chloroplasts trigger such diverse
actions as
initial leaf-out and flowering. These photoreceptors-- most
notably and the
only ones I know even a tiny amount about being phytochromes
and
cryptochromes-- respond to blue or red ends of the light
spectrum.


And I rebut:

Well, there are an awfully large group of 'nawthrun' bonsaiests
who tell me they store their trees in unheated, unlighted
garages, and others who keep them in cold frames that get buried
in snow (which does, allow some tinty amount of filtered light
through it is it's not too deep, I suppose). I neither know of
nor have heard hints of, anything in a tree that is not
green-stemmed (acacia, etc.) that would indicate that deciduous
trees have any need for light. Most green-stemmed trees and
shrubs are tropical, semi-tropical or evergreeen. I have not, of
course, heard everything there is to hear. ;-)

David again:

Peter Adams has long held the anecdotal notion that Chinese
Elm, even when
dormant, appreciate bright light or else really fine
ramification will be
shed in spring. I'm not aware of any research with regard to
Ulmus, but it's
possible that they are especially sensitive to drastic changes
in those
wavelengths of light and react accordingly.


And me (a bit less certainly):

Chinese elms often act as if they are evergreen and, in fact ARE
evergreen in the southern part of their range, but they are
(mostly) deciduous in the north (outdoors). However, they may,
in fact have chloroplasts under their bark -- at least in young
stems.

This tree in question here is a Zelkova, which does not.

Peter Adams, for all of his exemplary skill as a bonsaiest, is,
if I recall right, trained as an artist, and is not a biologist.

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Our life is
frittered away by detail . . . . Simplify! Simplify. -- Henry
David Thoreau - Walden

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From Bill Valavanis:

I disagree.
In my 40 years of growing bonsai I have learned, from
practical
experience and higher education, that light is NOT necessary
for
dormant bonsai when temperatures are low, (below 30F). I
have numerous

Please note this does NOT apply to areas of the world where
there is
not a sustained period of cold (below 30F). If warm
temperatures occur, then light is necessary.
----------
Bill -
This may contain a hint - because this part of Oregon
can have winters without any sustained freezing - maybe a day
or two with the length of freezing time very short on each of
those days. That has been especially true this year. Hardly
one snowflake.
My Chinese Elm was stored outside under a large canopy,
mulched, but wide open to some very light days and has leafed
out vigorously with no sign of grumpiness, by comparison.
Next year I will put the Zelkova next to the elm and
watch with some curiosity; it would be a very much lighter
position than it had this year and not quite as warm.
Thankyou, everyone, this tree is going to need some
restyling now unless it pops out some prospects for new
growth.
Lynn

Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA

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If at all possible, remove it entirely in one go. If it appears that a
disproportionate amount of feeder roots are on the large root, and removing
it would seriously weaken the tree, then yes you have to promote feeder
roots elsewhere while reducing sap flow from that heavy root. Is the root in
any way part of the final design?

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Dave G
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:50 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Zelkova question


I bought a Zelkova that I planned on chopping to do a broom
style. It has a
very nice 1" thick straight trunk and the grower chopped it already to
about 18" for shipping. When it arrived I noticed that it has one very big
root on one side of the tree that will never work. My question is
do I keep
it in the 5 gallon pot and chop it now or maybe do a wire tourniquet first
to get a better root system than chop it in a year or so. Any ideas
suggestions would be greatly appreciated

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++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

If at all possible, remove it entirely in one go. If it appears that a
disproportionate amount of feeder roots are on the large root, and removing
it would seriously weaken the tree, then yes you have to promote feeder
roots elsewhere while reducing sap flow from that heavy root. Is the root in
any way part of the final design?

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Dave G
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:50 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Zelkova question


I bought a Zelkova that I planned on chopping to do a broom
style. It has a
very nice 1" thick straight trunk and the grower chopped it already to
about 18" for shipping. When it arrived I noticed that it has one very big
root on one side of the tree that will never work. My question is
do I keep
it in the 5 gallon pot and chop it now or maybe do a wire tourniquet first
to get a better root system than chop it in a year or so. Any ideas
suggestions would be greatly appreciated

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

If at all possible, remove it entirely in one go. If it appears that a
disproportionate amount of feeder roots are on the large root, and removing
it would seriously weaken the tree, then yes you have to promote feeder
roots elsewhere while reducing sap flow from that heavy root. Is the root in
any way part of the final design?

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Dave G
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:50 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Zelkova question


I bought a Zelkova that I planned on chopping to do a broom
style. It has a
very nice 1" thick straight trunk and the grower chopped it already to
about 18" for shipping. When it arrived I noticed that it has one very big
root on one side of the tree that will never work. My question is
do I keep
it in the 5 gallon pot and chop it now or maybe do a wire tourniquet first
to get a better root system than chop it in a year or so. Any ideas
suggestions would be greatly appreciated

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

If at all possible, remove it entirely in one go. If it appears that a
disproportionate amount of feeder roots are on the large root, and removing
it would seriously weaken the tree, then yes you have to promote feeder
roots elsewhere while reducing sap flow from that heavy root. Is the root in
any way part of the final design?

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Dave G
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:50 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Zelkova question


I bought a Zelkova that I planned on chopping to do a broom
style. It has a
very nice 1" thick straight trunk and the grower chopped it already to
about 18" for shipping. When it arrived I noticed that it has one very big
root on one side of the tree that will never work. My question is
do I keep
it in the 5 gallon pot and chop it now or maybe do a wire tourniquet first
to get a better root system than chop it in a year or so. Any ideas
suggestions would be greatly appreciated

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

If at all possible, remove it entirely in one go. If it appears that a
disproportionate amount of feeder roots are on the large root, and removing
it would seriously weaken the tree, then yes you have to promote feeder
roots elsewhere while reducing sap flow from that heavy root. Is the root in
any way part of the final design?

David J. Bockman, Fairfax, VA (USDA Hardiness Zone 7)
Bunabayashi Bonsai On The World Wide Web: http://www.bunabayashi.com
email:


-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Dave G
Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2004 10:50 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Zelkova question


I bought a Zelkova that I planned on chopping to do a broom
style. It has a
very nice 1" thick straight trunk and the grower chopped it already to
about 18" for shipping. When it arrived I noticed that it has one very big
root on one side of the tree that will never work. My question is
do I keep
it in the 5 gallon pot and chop it now or maybe do a wire tourniquet first
to get a better root system than chop it in a year or so. Any ideas
suggestions would be greatly appreciated

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++