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10-07-2003, 03:20 PM

10-07-2003, 03:45 PM

10-07-2003, 07:58 PM

My guess would be that the problems with the bald cypress is that you are
trying to grow them inside. IMHO they would do much better if grown outside
or in your green house.

Well, that is what i am trying to overcome. An aquarium display indoors with my
bald cypress, water tupelo, and mangroves growing along side cattails and some
other emergent plants. mangroves grow great but not bald cypress. I need help
please

Moon

10-07-2003, 11:21 PM

I have more questions than answers on this one. That is, once I
picked my jaw up off my chest.

The Bald Cypress is a swamp tree. You cannot drown this tree. It'll
tolerate frost in the winter, and hot and humid summers. The leaves
prefer higher humidity than indoors can ever provide. If you're doing
this as a terrarium planting, you'll want to keep the moisture level
high. Perhaps too high as I expect the glass will be constantly
beaded with moisture and will therefore not be viewable from the
outside (in which case, what's the point?).

If you're running your plants under halide lamps, you may be producing
the heat, but are you producing the moisture? What size aquarium are
you using (measurements in inches, not gallons please)? Do you have a
misting system or is it enclosed to keep the humidity high.

What are your humidity and temperature readings for the plant? If
you're going to play God with this tree, you'll have to know these
numbers. Humidity would be nice for the tree over 80% (gut feeling
because that's what it is in New Orleans most of the time).
Temperatures should be in the 80's and 90's during the summer.

Having said that, I wonder if what the temperature differential is
betweent the base and the apex of the tree. What good is it to get
the base temperature at 85 degrees if the top, nearest the halide
lamps, is at 110? That'd kill any plant. Further, would there be any
differences between the base and apex humidity levels? I'm betting
yes. Oh, man, this is complicated stuff. I like it better keeping
outdoor trees outdoors. But hey, that's not the answer you're looking
for.

Does the cypress spend any time outside in the winter? It really does
need to lose it's leaves once a year. Only cold weather will do that.
You need something below 45 degrees for weeks at a time. Have you
thought of hooking up a window air conditioner to your terrarium? But
then, if you do that, you'll end up with water beading up on the
OUTSIDE of the aquarium this time. And once again, non-viewable
terrariums is not what you want.

Since you seemed determined to have an indoor display of cypress, I
doubt you'll listen to the best advice of all: STOP KILLING THESE
TREES IN YOUR HOUSE. I can only give you enough advice to keep the
trees alive for a season or two (or is that a season or less?).

And since this is a multispecies display, ho man is this getting
complicated!

Bill Butler
New Orleans, LA
USDA Zone 9

www.gnobs.org (Club Auction on August 16, 2003)

On 10 Jul 2003 18:26:40 GMT, ospam (Moontanman)
wrote:

My guess would be that the problems with the bald cypress is that you are
trying to grow them inside. IMHO they would do much better if grown outside
or in your green house.

Well, that is what i am trying to overcome. An aquarium display indoors with my
bald cypress, water tupelo, and mangroves growing along side cattails and some
other emergent plants. mangroves grow great but not bald cypress. I need help
please

Moon

10-07-2003, 11:21 PM

I have more questions than answers on this one. That is, once I
picked my jaw up off my chest.

The Bald Cypress is a swamp tree. You cannot drown this tree. It'll
tolerate frost in the winter, and hot and humid summers. The leaves
prefer higher humidity than indoors can ever provide. If you're doing
this as a terrarium planting, you'll want to keep the moisture level
high. Perhaps too high as I expect the glass will be constantly
beaded with moisture and will therefore not be viewable from the
outside (in which case, what's the point?).

If you're running your plants under halide lamps, you may be producing
the heat, but are you producing the moisture? What size aquarium are
you using (measurements in inches, not gallons please)? Do you have a
misting system or is it enclosed to keep the humidity high.

What are your humidity and temperature readings for the plant? If
you're going to play God with this tree, you'll have to know these
numbers. Humidity would be nice for the tree over 80% (gut feeling
because that's what it is in New Orleans most of the time).
Temperatures should be in the 80's and 90's during the summer.

Having said that, I wonder if what the temperature differential is
betweent the base and the apex of the tree. What good is it to get
the base temperature at 85 degrees if the top, nearest the halide
lamps, is at 110? That'd kill any plant. Further, would there be any
differences between the base and apex humidity levels? I'm betting
yes. Oh, man, this is complicated stuff. I like it better keeping
outdoor trees outdoors. But hey, that's not the answer you're looking
for.

Does the cypress spend any time outside in the winter? It really does
need to lose it's leaves once a year. Only cold weather will do that.
You need something below 45 degrees for weeks at a time. Have you
thought of hooking up a window air conditioner to your terrarium? But
then, if you do that, you'll end up with water beading up on the
OUTSIDE of the aquarium this time. And once again, non-viewable
terrariums is not what you want.

Since you seemed determined to have an indoor display of cypress, I
doubt you'll listen to the best advice of all: STOP KILLING THESE
TREES IN YOUR HOUSE. I can only give you enough advice to keep the
trees alive for a season or two (or is that a season or less?).

And since this is a multispecies display, ho man is this getting
complicated!

Bill Butler
New Orleans, LA
USDA Zone 9

www.gnobs.org (Club Auction on August 16, 2003)

On 10 Jul 2003 18:26:40 GMT, ospam (Moontanman)
wrote:

My guess would be that the problems with the bald cypress is that you are
trying to grow them inside. IMHO they would do much better if grown outside
or in your green house.

Well, that is what i am trying to overcome. An aquarium display indoors with my
bald cypress, water tupelo, and mangroves growing along side cattails and some
other emergent plants. mangroves grow great but not bald cypress. I need help
please

Moon

12-07-2003, 05:08 AM

I have more questions than answers on this one. That is, once I
picked my jaw up off my chest.

Ok I'll go through this one section at a time

The Bald Cypress is a swamp tree. You cannot drown this tree. It'll
tolerate frost in the winter, and hot and humid summers. The leaves
prefer higher humidity than indoors can ever provide.

I am well aware of the conditions that bald cypress will live under. I live in
the middle of a cypress swamp! My mom who lives in the Mountains of WVa grows
bald cypress out side with no problems as well as inside with sunlight coming
in through a window. I said I was new to bonsai (10 years) Not an idiot! I grow
potted swamp trees of many speces in outdoor ponds, It's part of why I started
growing trees. I love to see them growing out of the water and later i learned
that a tree growing in an aquarium makes keeping black water fish much easier
and the underwater display or roots makes for another dimension in both tree
and aquarium keeping. I started out with just displays of Cypress growing in
shallow bowls with azolla covering the water. I have progressed to very nice
displays of various trees growing in aquariums where both the above water and
below water parts of the plants can be seen. Incredibly interesting display.
Due to a hurricane my greenhouse is now gone. so indoors is teh only place i
can display my aquarium with trees.

If you're doing
this as a terrarium planting, you'll want to keep the moisture level
high. Perhaps too high as I expect the glass will be constantly
beaded with moisture and will therefore not be viewable from the
outside (in which case, what's the point?).

Moisture levels in the air ar not as important as you think but i do keep the
trees semi inclosed as more of vivarium type set up. Water tupelo trees do fine
like this, as do water apples, but not cypress trees. I used to think maybe it
was day lenth but the use of varible timers show this isn't the case niether is
winter temps since i could them at summer temps year round in the greenhouse. I
kept tropical fish in them.

If you're running your plants under halide lamps, you may be producing
the heat, but are you producing the moisture? What size aquarium are
you using (measurements in inches, not gallons please)?

From 12"W X 24"L X12"H to 24"W X 60"L X16"H One reason I am detrimined to solve
this problem is my greenhouse was blown away in a hurricane a fewe years ago
and I am tired of not having the more intimate contact with my trees that I
used to have

Do you have a
misting system or is it enclosed to keep the humidity high.

Partially enclosed.

What are your humidity and temperature readings for the plant? If
you're going to play God with this tree, you'll have to know these
numbers. Humidity would be nice for the tree over 80% (gut feeling
because that's what it is in New Orleans most of the time).

Everyone who grows bonsai is playing god
and trees are much tougher than people give them credit for, see my moms
cypress in the WVa mountians growing like crayzy in mostly dry clay with winter
temps in the -0's at times in the winter

Temperatures should be in the 80's and 90's during the summer.

Thanks for the update.

Having said that, I wonder if what the temperature differential is
betweent the base and the apex of the tree. What good is it to get
the base temperature at 85 degrees if the top, nearest the halide
lamps, is at 110? That'd kill any plant.

Again I am not an idiot, I do know to keep the lights away from the plants.
Most plants even cacti would not do well too close to metal halides

Further, would there be any
differences between the base and apex humidity levels? I'm betting
yes. Oh, man, this is complicated stuff. I like it better keeping
outdoor trees outdoors. But hey, that's not the answer you're looking
for.

Exactly!

Does the cypress spend any time outside in the winter? It really does
need to lose it's leaves once a year. Only cold weather will do that.
You need something below 45 degrees for weeks at a time.

Not true it's day lenth that governs leaf loss on most trees, cypress included.
Keeping in a hot house year round pretty much proved this

Have you
thought of hooking up a window air conditioner to your terrarium? But
then, if you do that, you'll end up with water beading up on the
OUTSIDE of the aquarium this time. And once again, non-viewable
terrariums is not what you want.

I have no probelm with water beading on the glass either way.

Since you seemed determined to have an indoor display of cypress, I
doubt you'll listen to the best advice of all: STOP KILLING THESE
TREES IN YOUR HOUSE. I can only give you enough advice to keep the
trees alive for a season or two (or is that a season or less?).

My oldest tree is ten years old, the youngest is 2 years old, all were grown
from seeds. Mind your own beeswax!

And since this is a multispecies display, ho man is this getting
complicated!

Obviously you have nver been to a real swamp, most trees in a swamp grow all
over each other. No muti species problems. If you can't suggest a type of
lighting or some other useful info don't answer the questions. I'm not a troll,
I was looking to see if anyone else had to keep their favorite trees under
artificial lighting and if they did what kind.

Bill Butler
New Orleans, LA
USDA Zone 9

www.gnobs.org (Club Auction on August 16, 2003)

remove nospam from e-mail to send to me, I grow trees in aquariums like bonsai.
I breed dwarf crayfish, great for planted community tanks. If you can get me a
shovelnose sturgeon fingerling (Scaphirhynchus platorynchus) no wild caught
please, contact me

12-07-2003, 05:08 AM

One more thing, I have been keeping fish for 40 years, everyday i help dozens
of people who have probelms with their fish. Often they have done things that
were not smart to say the least. I always try ot be as kind as possible and
guide them in the right direction keeping in mind that everyone has their own
unique problems and needs when keeping their fish. Never have i tried to make
anyone feel stupid or inferior because they didn't keep the same fish as me to
want to do it in the same way as me. Bill Butler you seemed to delight in
trying your best to do both. If you are persopnifacation of the averge Bonsai
grower then I feel for your hobby and the people who want to participate in it.
A display of living creatures is always a difficult this to bring about but
there is also never just one way to do it. If I stepped over teh line by asking
for advice then i am sorry and i will never make that mistake again.

12-07-2003, 06:56 AM

12-07-2003, 01:08 PM

I can not speak to the Bald Cypress since I just got my first one the
summer. I am encouraged that Mom can grow them in WV since I live in
Colorado and hope to keep mine alive. Currently it is outside in a tray
filled with 2 to 3 inches of water.

I would be carful about growing cypress outside in colorado. MY mom grows them
up to about two feet tall before planting them outside. she doesn't grow them
as bonsai.

Moon

12-07-2003, 02:32 PM

One more thing, I have been keeping fish for 40 years, everyday
i help dozens
of people who have probelms with their fish. Often they have
done things that
were not smart to say the least. I always try ot be as kind as
possible and
guide them in the right direction keeping in mind that everyone
has their own
unique problems and needs when keeping their fish. Never have i
tried to make
anyone feel stupid or inferior because they didn't keep the
same fish as me to
want to do it in the same way as me. Bill Butler you seemed to
delight in
trying your best to do both. If you are persopnifacation of the
averge Bonsai
grower then I feel for your hobby and the people who want to
participate in it.
A display of living creatures is always a difficult this to
bring about but
there is also never just one way to do it. If I stepped over
teh line by asking
for advice then i am sorry and i will never make that mistake
again.

A note from your listowner . . .

A little nice, please folks?

Moontanan, I don't think Bill was being purposefully unhelpful,
though perhaps a bit undiplomatic. And it is NEVER helpful to
address people personally on the list. If you have a difference,
iron it out via PRIVATE mail. Public name calling just makes YOU
look/sound ugly. Now, you are posting via rec.arts.bonsai. I
cannot do much about that, but I CAN bar messages from R.A.B.
individuals from reaching the linked mailing list, which is more
than half of the participants here. So, let's all please be
good.

Thanks.

That said, I'm sorry you lost your greenhouse, but I don't
believe that any amount of wishing will allow bald cypress to
thrive indoors. They may live for a while, but will decline and
eventually die. Even trees that survive indoors (Serissa, ficus,
etc.) do not really like it. Indoors is not the native habitat
of any tree or shrub. Some can survive, most cannot. Some die
almost immediately, others decline over a period of years. The
result is the same.

A physiological fact of life (or death).

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

12-07-2003, 02:56 PM

Manuael:
As far as the Buttonwood, I had the same experience with leaf scorch, so
I am also growing mine indoors. I did put the Buttonwood in an
enclosed structure, like a mini greenhouse (I call it my ICU) for over a
month and it recovered from its bout with the sun....

Now that it is recovered I water it and fertilize the Buttonwood with a
1/4 tsp of Miracid for five days and two days with plain water to wash
any salt build up. I also keep my Buttonwood on a propagation mat,
since it loves to have warm feet!

Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7
http://bmee.net/rosner
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48

Manuel A Chavez wrote:

I can not speak to the Bald Cypress since I just got my first one the
summer. I am encouraged that Mom can grow them in WV since I live in
Colorado and hope to keep mine alive. Currently it is outside in a tray
filled with 2 to 3 inches of water. I can not advise you unfortunately on
how to best grow them inside. I can tell you that I have a bookshelf with a
florescent bulb (tye that go under cabinets) to provide additional light. I
have been growing for the past year under these lights a Buttonwood and
Sheferela. Both of which are doing quiet well. The Button wood, which I
was told would not do well in this climate is recovering quite well in this
cbine from some leaf scorch that it received outside as I was trying to
acamatize it to outdoor conditions

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

12-07-2003, 03:20 PM

Jim Lewis wrote:

BIG snip

Even trees that survive indoors (Serissa, ficus,
etc.) do not really like it. Indoors is not the native habitat
of any tree or shrub. Some can survive, most cannot. Some die
almost immediately, others decline over a period of years. The
result is the same.

A physiological fact of life (or death).

Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - The phrase
'sustainable growth' is an oxymoron. - Stephen Viederman

As a good example, I have two chinese elms, one of which I acquired this year. The
other I've had for a couple of years. I had it indoors the winter before last. It
survived but did not thrive. It put out half-hearted leggy shoots and had large
leaves. Last winter I kept it outdoors with the other hardy trees. The difference
is astonishing. It has small leaves, short internodes, and was strong enough to
withstand a black fungus infection. It's leafing back nicely now. I'll never keep
these trees indoors after seeing the difference. Whatever I gained by having this
tree outdoors during the growing season I lost indoors over the winter.

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a
Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

12-07-2003, 03:20 PM

Carl,

Thanks for the responses. I have a few questions.
Now that your buttonwood has recovered do you continue to grow it in you ICU
area? How often n an average are you watering it? The 1/4 tsp Miracid, is
that per gallon of water? Finally. mine is currently on a humidity tray,
I have thought of using a propagation at instead of the humidity tray. If I
do should I supplement the humidity by other means? Thanks in advance for
your help.

Manny

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet Bonsai Club ]On Behalf
Of Carl L Rosner
Sent: Saturday, July 12, 2003 7:20 AM
To:
Subject: [IBC] Artificial lighting

Manuael:
As far as the Buttonwood, I had the same experience with leaf scorch, so
I am also growing mine indoors. I did put the Buttonwood in an
enclosed structure, like a mini greenhouse (I call it my ICU) for over a
month and it recovered from its bout with the sun....

Now that it is recovered I water it and fertilize the Buttonwood with a
1/4 tsp of Miracid for five days and two days with plain water to wash
any salt build up. I also keep my Buttonwood on a propagation mat,
since it loves to have warm feet!

Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7
http://bmee.net/rosner
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...page&artistid=
0000006848

Manuel A Chavez wrote:

I can not speak to the Bald Cypress since I just got my first one the
summer. I am encouraged that Mom can grow them in WV since I live in
Colorado and hope to keep mine alive. Currently it is outside in a tray
filled with 2 to 3 inches of water. I can not advise you unfortunately on
how to best grow them inside. I can tell you that I have a bookshelf with a
florescent bulb (tye that go under cabinets) to provide additional light.
I
have been growing for the past year under these lights a Buttonwood and
Sheferela. Both of which are doing quiet well. The Button wood, which I
was told would not do well in this climate is recovering quite well in this
cbine from some leaf scorch that it received outside as I was trying to
acamatize it to outdoor conditions

************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

12-07-2003, 03:56 PM

Manny:
I'll answer each question individually:

Manuel A Chavez wrote:

Carl,

Thanks for the responses. I have a few questions.
Now that your buttonwood has recovered do you continue to grow it in you ICU
area?

NO. I have it on a propagation mat. In the corner between a southern
exposure window and a Western Exposure window.

How often n an average are you watering it? The 1/4 tsp Miracid, is
that per gallon of water?

I water my Buttonwood every single day. I have a fairly loose soil with
a handful of regular garden dirt added. The 1/4 tsp Miracid is to a
gallon of water. .

Finally. mine is currently on a humidity tray,
I have thought of using a propagation at instead of the humidity tray. If I
do should I supplement the humidity by other means? Thanks in advance for
your help.

I found that humidity trays do absolutely little if nothing to raise the
humidity around the tree/s. I have a Humidifier in my Green house,
which operates 24 hours a day, except this time of the year, since I
have my green house open. I don't quite remember where you live, but I
live several blocks from the ocean on one side and several blocks from
the bay. This time of year we have about a 55 to 65% humidity. In the
winter I keep my greenhouse at about the same humidity. It is too much
humidity for the inside of the house. Every spring I have to clean and
scrape the green algae off the windows and doors and walls... I also
have an oscillating fan running 24/7. That keeps the pest population
down to almost 0. The apiders seem to take care of any pests that
manage to land on my 40 some indoor trees.

I hope this helps.

Best regards, and if I can be of further help, just ask.

Carl L. Rosner - near Atlantic City zone 6/7
http://bmee.net/rosner
http://www.jamesbaird.com/cgi-bin/Ja...d=00000068 48

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by Mike Page ++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

12-07-2003, 09:20 PM

That said, I'm sorry you lost your greenhouse, but I don't
believe that any amount of wishing will allow bald cypress to
thrive indoors. They may live for a while, but will decline and
eventually die. Even trees that survive indoors (Serissa, ficus,
etc.) do not really like it. Indoors is not the native habitat
of any tree or shrub. Some can survive, most cannot. Some die
almost immediately, others decline over a period of years. The
result is the same.

A physiological fact of life (or death).

So what you are saying is that even though my tupelos and mangroves and even my
umbrella plams (not trees) nearly need to be trimmed with a chain saw they grow
so fast there is no way i can get my Bald cypress to grow inside? the mangrove
trees act like they would like to wrap around the metal halide bulb as do the
umbrella palms. I do indeed provide a mostly inclosed environment for my
vivariums ( you really can't call them aquariums ) to promote moisture and so
far only cattails and bald cypress are really giving me a hard time. I wish
everyone could have seen my 125 gallon aquarium with 1 water tupello, 3 bald
cypress, 1 mangrove, a patch of dwarf cattails, dwarf umbrella palms and many
moses ferns and bromillads growing as epiphytes. Not to mention submerged
plants water lillies and a lotus. with a huge school of cardinal tetras, glass
catfish, striped African glass catfish, double trunked elephantnose fish,
upside down catfish, blue spotted sunfish, black banded sunfish, freshwater
flounders, shrimp, dwarf crayfish, clams and snails. even the local public
aquarium people were impressed. maybe i'll just cut a hole in the wall and
mount the aquarium outside inside it's own greenhouse... I could make the
aquarium bigger and the display even better! The water trees take up so much
nutrients the fish absolutely glow with their natural colors. Of course i may
have to get a new wife.... surely there are women who like fish and trees as
much as i do! Just kidding but i do intend to solve this problem. I'm just too
old to stop now!

Moon

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