Xref: kermit rec.arts.bonsai:75971

Andrew G wrote:

Hi everyone
Just reading a recent thread where someone is moving state and a response to
it was someone suggesting the person sell their bonsai away and "start
again" apart from their favourite/s.
snip
I am always on the look out at work for natural specimens but will stop
collecting soon.
I refuse to buy any already "made".
So just wondering, many people here frequently sell them, to start over?

P.S. Happy 4th of July to you
Andrew Forster Mid North COast NSW Australia

Andrew:
I have been doing bonsai for five years now, and have killed off a number of trees
through ignorance and over-zealousness. I have also traded collected trees (mostly
raw material) for nursery stock that I couldn't find in the wild. An example is
with honeysuckles. I have had the opportunity to collect large, 100+ year old bush
honeysuckles on a local farm. I wound up with about ten, and decided that it would
be difficult to keep up with all of them. So, I decided I'd trade at a bonsai
nursery when the owner of the nursery happened to see one of the smaller ones I'd
collected and found out that I had some even larger. I traded four for a japanese
flowering apricot that has a nice trunk. No cash outlay.

I have a number of trees I collected in the wild early on, and intend to keep them
because they have large trunks and will be long-term projects, which was why I
collected them in the first place. When I collected them three or so years ago I
already knew they'd be in development for close to a decade.

In terms of buying a "finished" tree, if you can afford it, do it. Don't refuse to
do so on principle. There is something to be said for having a few trees that are
further along. I have a really nice procumbens juniper that is "finished" in terms
of the development of the lines of the trunk and the positioning of the main
branches. My contribution to it has been thinning out the crown and refining and
developing the pads of foliage. Even though I did not design the trunk, I still
feel it is just as much my tree as any that I collected from the wild because I
selected it because it appealed to me, and I have altered it somewhat to fit with
my vision of what I'd like it to be.

I don't know how long you've been doing bonsai, but I suspect you'll find your
thoughts about giving up trees change.

Now, anyone who has seen my jungle will find it hard to believe that I have traded
trees (I've traded away about 40 collected trees) but I have, and probably will
continue to do so periodically. There are a number I won't trade, but others,
maybe, if I come across something I'd like even more. Alan is right. The way to
step up your collection is to always be open to new possibilities. Always a good
philosophy in life too!

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

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I have been living in the same house for over 30years.
I have a lot that is between 1/4 and 1/3 acre. We
stopped counding when I got up to 300 trees. About 75
are bonsai. The rest in various sages of development
and neglect. I do sell trees form time to time, but
some of my children in my care for 25 years would be
difficult to part with ande start over.

I have stock I have tried to sell many times, no one
buys it. I styhle it and then there are those who
admire them. After I have an interaction with a tree,
I have difficulty in parting with it soon after.

I have reached an age where I begin to consider
culling the collection. There are some I would give
to younger folk who have more time to develop the
material. Many in my club don't want my cuttings as
they too won't really see them develop in their
lifetime. So I have made provision for the trees in
my living trust.

I trust I have about 20 years left, but those pots
become heavier and heavier each year.

Kitsune Miko

=====
We don't want to out-grow our games.
If you were the size of a planet or a galaxy,
who would you talk to? Playing God
would be as boring as solitaire
or stomping on anthills, but require
more attention. Every lonely child
dreams a doll or book will come to life.
If you know how to grow, you must teach
others. You won't let yourself make it
alone.
__________________________
Dean Blehert


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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Andrew - I like your attitude about bonsai. Too many people treat them like
a commodity: used cars, garage sales, old furniture and bonsai. If one has
this attitude, he misses the whole point of bonsai. A true bonsai artist
treats his trees as part of himself. He may give them to others if he knows
that the recipient can care for them as much as he does, but he doesn't sell
them.
I once went to a convention at which Ben Oki was doing a demo. A visitor
asked him if the tree he was working on was for sale. When the answer was
"no", the visitor asked:"But if were for sale, what would be the price?"
Ben quietly replied: " A thousand dollars."
The visitor gasped: "Isn't that a lot of money?"
"Yes, said Ben, but when you consider that I put 100 hours into that tree,
it only comes to $10 an hour for my work. Do you think I'm worth that
much?" Then, as an afterthought, Ben said: "But it's not for sale."
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew G"
To:
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 5:39 AM
Subject: [IBC] How many of you hord/keep bonsai?


Hi everyone
Just reading a recent thread where someone is moving state and a response
to
it was someone suggesting the person sell their bonsai away and "start
again" apart from their favourite/s.
Now between my fiance and I we have about 18 bonsai.
Of them about 6 are what I class as true bonsai, another 9 may get that
title after this winter has passed as all of the other are in training
pots.
I have had some of them for 5yrs (but were older than that when I acquired
them) and for that past say 4.5yrs have been quite negelcted in training
pots, yet have turned out great.
Others that have been acquired more recently have received much more care
and will continue to do so.
But I could not imagine letting go of any of them. A big thing is the
whole
time factor for bonsai and starting over again seems pretty daunting.
I would like to think I still have some of these 50yrs down the track.
We may seem to have many, but we are waiting to finish an area of our
garden
so they can be on permanent display in one section.
I am always on the look out at work for natural specimens but will stop
collecting soon.
I refuse to buy any already "made".
So just wondering, many people here frequently sell them, to start over?

P.S. Happy 4th of July to you
Andrew Forster Mid North COast NSW Australia


************************************************** **************************
****
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++

************************************************** **************************
****
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

On 5 Jul 2004 08:20:35 -0700, in rec.arts.bonsai you wrote:

Andrew - I like your attitude about bonsai. Too many people treat them like
a commodity: used cars, garage sales, old furniture and bonsai. If one has
this attitude, he misses the whole point of bonsai. A true bonsai artist
treats his trees as part of himself. He may give them to others if he knows
that the recipient can care for them as much as he does, but he doesn't sell
them.
I once went to a convention at which Ben Oki was doing a demo. A visitor
asked him if the tree he was working on was for sale. When the answer was
"no", the visitor asked:"But if were for sale, what would be the price?"
Ben quietly replied: " A thousand dollars."
The visitor gasped: "Isn't that a lot of money?"
"Yes, said Ben, but when you consider that I put 100 hours into that tree,
it only comes to $10 an hour for my work. Do you think I'm worth that
much?" Then, as an afterthought, Ben said: "But it's not for sale."
Marty
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew G"
To:
Sent: Monday, July 05, 2004 5:39 AM
Subject: [IBC] How many of you hord/keep bonsai?

But I could not imagine letting go of any of them.

Don't get too attached, ultimately you must.

I find mine a striking 'memento mori' at times. If I do my job right,
they could outlive me by many lifetimes.

Many faiths have a variation on the following, as do many secular
philosophies.

'...all earthly things are to be looked upon as it were by the way.
All things are passing away, and thou together with them.'

Anyone else have a philosophical view on their trees and plants?

Richard

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+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I plead guilty.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention July 1 - 4, 2005 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Workshops with Jerry Meislik of Whitefish, Montana, Chase Rosade of New Hope,
PA, and Ben Oki of California.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Andrew: If you only have 18 bonsai, then it is not a difficult
decision to keep them all when moving. You can afford to be
sentimental. If you have considerably more, then my suggestion
of choosing which are the most important and keeping only them
starts to make more sense.
In my case, it is more a matter of "do as I say, not as I
do," for I am also quite a pack rat and typically do not practice
what I preach in this regard. Realistically, though, as time
marches on, you must watch out for becoming a prisoner of your
"things". George Carlin has a very funny comedy bit which
humorously exposes the vicious cycle we willing enter to acquire
more "stuff" and expand our homes and garages and such to make
more room for our "stuff" and fall victim of our "stuff" owning
us rather than the other way around. It's an insidious
compulsion. Today I read an article in the NY Times which quoted
"a passage from the Tirukkural, an ancient work of Tamil
philosophy, - "As one by one we give up, we get freer and freer
of pain." Food for thought in our materialistic trappings.
As for buying bonsai from someone else, that's an
individual choice. I've never bought a "finished" bonsai, but see
no need to be snobbish toward someone who does. We all know that
a bonsai is never "finished" anyway, until it is dead. Bonsai
are high maintenance possessions, and I have no fear that someone
else's design will insult my creativity. Bonsai designs evolve
if we have the horticultural skills to keep them alive long
enough. Whatever I can find to jumpstart my creativity and my
learning curve is welcome. Otherwise, I risk stagnation and
boredom. Someone once commented that some people may have thirty
years' experience, but they just took the first year course over
thirty times, while others will keep building year after year. I
figure I'm somewhere in-between.
Alan Walker
http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org


-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew G

Hi everyone
Just reading a recent thread where someone is moving state and a
response to it was someone suggesting the person sell their
bonsai away and "start again" apart from their favourite/s.
Now between my fiance and I we have about 18 bonsai.
Of them about 6 are what I class as true bonsai, another 9 may
get that
title after this winter has passed as all of the other are in
training pots.
I have had some of them for 5yrs (but were older than that when I
acquired them) and for that past say 4.5yrs have been quite
negelcted in training pots, yet have turned out great.
Others that have been acquired more recently have received much
more care and will continue to do so.
But I could not imagine letting go of any of them. A big thing is
the whole
time factor for bonsai and starting over again seems pretty
daunting.
I would like to think I still have some of these 50 yrs. down the
track.
We may seem to have many, but we are waiting to finish an area of
our garden so they can be on permanent display in one section.
I am always on the look out at work for natural specimens but
will stop
collecting soon.
I refuse to buy any already "made".
So just wondering, many people here frequently sell them, to
start over?

P.S. Happy 4th of July to you
Andrew Forster Mid North COast NSW Australia

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

For the sake of those who must lighten the load of bonsai care -

We do become very sentimental about our bonsai and freely express the
emotions we develop about them; it encompasses some ideal. But, if we think
of them as an art and ourselves as artists then don't we recall that
sentiment does not produce good art and the matter of proceding toward an
art of higher calibre requires training, experience,patience and some rather
rigid discipline. Time goes by, sentiment tends to trap us in a past
wisdom. Certainly that is fine - but the sentiment can stall a new
viewpoint with even more success to come in the art, so I think we see in
studying the greatest of artists that they could set aside what they had
accomplished and proceed to more insightful and transcending work,
developing the same thing in themselves at the same time.

I love to give away trees when someone seems to want one badly enough and I,
at the same time, realize it is not one of my better ones. It can be a
inspiration for the possible beginner, but best of all, it gives room in my
space and especially drives me to replace it with something I now think I
might do a little better
..
I was toughened by constant reminders during my art schooling to
recognize sentiment, then avoid its grasp at times - so I just will uphold
that those whose advice seems without sentiment are making statements that
should be accepted as viewpoints or hope of an even greater expression
through their tree art. They do not lack a quality of emotion, but may be
practicing a discipline.
Nothing better or worse about either outlook, to me.. And the "point"
of bonsai is individual, a matter of how one reads the metaphoric background
of its artistry. Certainly an interesting philosophical exchange for us.

Lynn
Lynn Boyd, Oregon, USA
----------------------

Andrew - I like your attitude about bonsai. Too many people treat them
like
a commodity: used cars, garage sales, old furniture and bonsai. If one
has
this attitude, he misses the whole point of bonsai. A true bonsai artist
treats his trees as part of himself. He may give them to others if he
knows
that the recipient can care for them as much as he does, but he doesn't
sell
them.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

Andrew G wrote:
snip

Funny too, I went back to work today, after holidays, and a job that needed
doing was removing/demolishing a garden. There were plenty of Banksia
"Honeypots" that had not grown much at all since being planted, yet trunks
had thickened, root system small, due to poor conditions. And yep, 3 of the
best looking have made it to my backyard, into training pots :-)
Thanks again for the replies


Now THAT'S the way to get good material!

Craig Cowing
NY
Zone 5b/6a Sunset 37

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

I gave away a small Ficus nerifolia today. It was in a yellow
Chinese pot about 8 x 5 x 3. The trunk was a little over one inch and the tree was
8 to 10 inches high.
The husband of a coworker makes t shirts to commemorate Space
Shuttle launches and I have purchased leftovers cheap as gifts for relatives
when I travel. This time she said she wanted a bonsai in addition the money.
(The price she charges me is barely more that the cost of a good white t shirt.)
When I took her the above tree she wouldn't take the money.
She spent all day talking about the tree.
It was a great feeling and she didn't realize how easy and
common the F. nerifolia is.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention July 1 - 4, 2005 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Workshops with Jerry Meislik of Whitefish, Montana, Chase Rosade of New Hope,
PA, and Ben Oki of California.

************************************************** ******************************
++++Sponsored, in part, by John Quinn++++
************************************************** ******************************
-- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ --
+++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++

That is very cool. You made someone very happy.
---------------------------------------------------
Subject: [IBC] How many of you hord/keep bonsai?
From: (Billy M. Rhodes)
Date: 07/06/2004 5:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

I gave away a small Ficus nerifolia today. It was in a yellow
Chinese pot about 8 x 5 x 3. The trunk was a little over one inch and the tree
was
8 to 10 inches high.
The husband of a coworker makes t shirts to commemorate Space
Shuttle launches and I have purchased leftovers cheap as gifts for relatives
when I travel. This time she said she wanted a bonsai in addition the money.
(The price she charges me is barely more that the cost of a good white t
shirt.)
When I took her the above tree she wouldn't take the money.
She spent all day talking about the tree.
It was a great feeling and she didn't realize how easy and
common the F. nerifolia is.

Billy on the Florida Space Coast
BSF Annual Convention July 1 - 4, 2005 Radisson Hotel, Cape Canaveral,
Florida
Workshops with Jerry Meislik of Whitefish, Montana, Chase Rosade of New Hope,
PA, and Ben Oki of California.