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#1
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[IBC] airlayering questions
I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on
the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. Kitsune Miko ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#2
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On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote:
I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#3
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John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd
never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#4
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John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd
never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#5
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Interesting. I wonder if he also got roots on the
part furthest away from the tree as well. Kits --- Tex John wrote: John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#6
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Yes...don't have a scanner or I'd show you...maybe someone else does and can
post it in the forum? Afterwards he appears to peel the bark off the bottom of the air-layered horizontal limb to expose even more cambium and get even more roots round the edge. John "Kitsune Miko" wrote in message o.com... Interesting. I wonder if he also got roots on the part furthest away from the tree as well. Kits --- Tex John wrote: John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#7
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I have the book in ASCi it looks like this"
|airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits --- Tex John wrote: Yes...don't have a scanner or I'd show you...maybe someone else does and can post it in the forum? Afterwards he appears to peel the bark off the bottom of the air-layered horizontal limb to expose even more cambium and get even more roots round the edge. John "Kitsune Miko" wrote in message o.com... Interesting. I wonder if he also got roots on the part furthest away from the tree as well. Kits --- Tex John wrote: John Naka's Bonsai Techniques II page 3 shows an air layering technique I'd never seen before where he air layers the middle section of a branch and gets roots on both sides. He doesn't say if the end of the branch will die off or not. He does not appear to cut the bark 100% all the way round either, though. John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E03099.27470.D6D17@localhost... On 8 Jan 2005 at 13:06, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have heard that you can/cannot put two airlayers on the same branch. Anyone tried this? I have lots of overgrown stuff that is overgrown because I think I should airlayer. I suppose I could do long airlayers, then airlyer the airlayer after the first pass is rooted and stable. You can do several on one plant, but not on the same branch. The nutrients/water/whatever the roots/leaves need will get cut off from one or the other one of the layers. Jim Lewis - - This economy is a wholly owned subsidiary of the environment. - Gaylord Nelson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#8
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On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote:
I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#9
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Jim,
This is far beyond my experience, but Naka's hand drawing does show roots on both the trunk-side branch cut and and the branch-tip branch cut. Definately odd looking. Maybe someone can upload a scan to the forum? John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E3F176.29648.14A39DB@localhost... On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#10
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Well, I finally looked at the illustration in question.
That's a good idea to do before assessing it, because this is not about taking two airlayers off the same branch. It is about taking one airlayer on an upward growing branch off a lateral branch. The purpose is to create good rootage and a strong base for the new tree. When you remove the airlayer, you eliminate the distal tip of the branch and keep the middle part which has rooted. John Naka was very competent and knew what he was talking about. None of the things in his books were techniques he had not successfully performed himself. By the way, DO NOT scan the illustrations and post them. This book is definitely copyrighted and this should be respected. You will probably be banned from the forum for a while if you do post it. Alan Walker http://bonsai-bci.com http://LCBSBonsai.org -----Original Message----- From: Tex John Jim, This is far beyond my experience, but Naka's hand drawing does show roots on both the trunk-side branch cut and and the branch-tip branch cut. Definitely odd looking. Maybe someone can upload a scan to the forum? John On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seems to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#11
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Let's try this again:
\/ __|___ ------/_____\----------Branch tip ^ ^ Interesting water sprout on branch. Angle cuts as shown, not all the way through the branch. The life line continues unbroken across the top. "^"= roots Naka shows the actual tree planted and the rootage in a photo. Kits --- Tex John wrote: Jim, This is far beyond my experience, but Naka's hand drawing does show roots on both the trunk-side branch cut and and the branch-tip branch cut. Definately odd looking. Maybe someone can upload a scan to the forum? John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E3F176.29648.14A39DB@localhost... On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ===== **** "Expectations are resentments under construction." Anne Lamott ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#13
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Someone would need to e-mail Nic about copyright questions,
though since it would be for an educational purpose it probably would be OK. I don't have Naka II, so haven't seen the picture. I have, however, _always_ said that bonsai books are the absolute worst place to get reliable botanical information from. Suggest you call your local agricultural extension office and ask them; they at least should put you in touch with someone who layers often -- perhaps a camellia grower. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect - Aldo Leopold - A Sand County Almanac On 12 Jan 2005 at 3:19, Tex John wrote: Jim, This is far beyond my experience, but Naka's hand drawing does show roots on both the trunk-side branch cut and and the branch-tip branch cut. Definately odd looking. Maybe someone can upload a scan to the forum? John "Jim Lewis" wrote in message news:41E3F176.29648.14A39DB@localhost... On 11 Jan 2005 at 8:50, Kitsune Miko wrote: I have the book in ASCi it looks like this" |airlayer | ______ ______ _______ branch tip | | cut cut There is a bottom cut, but not all the way through at the two cut sites. They are stuffed with moss, wrapped, and cut off when roots form on either side of the above indicated airlayer. My question is whether roots also from on the piece more towards the branch tip. This seesm to be a variation on the put-a-pebble-in-a-slit-and-burry-in-the-ground technique. but ont hat one the roots form at the end of the growing tip. Kits Based on the biology of trees (plants!) and how nutrients, water, etc. are moved around, I cannot imagine how you could get roots in both places; you might be in danger of getting roots at neither place. _I_ would not risk it in a plant that I really wanted to get at least one layer off of. Do the bottom layer now, then the other layer in a few years when the new roots are fully supporting the new plant. Jim Lewis - - Tallahassee, FL - Nature encourages no looseness, pardons no errors. Ralph Waldo Emerson ************************************************** ************************** **** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ************************** **** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ ************************************************** ****************************** ++++Sponsored, in part, by Boon Manakitivipart++++ ************************************************** ****************************** -- The IBC HOME PAGE & FAQ: http://www.internetbonsaiclub.org/ -- +++++ Questions? Help? e-mail +++++ |
#14
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This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has
finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes sense..... |
#15
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This whole thread confused me, but kitsune's modified ascii graphic has
finally clued me in. From what I know about root formation (not that much, but I did have a plant physiology course once.... decades ago), there is no reason you can't get two areas of root formation on the same branch. It happens all the time on shrubs that "scramble", that is, that root on low branches that touch the ground. Roots that emerge from stems are called "adventitious roots" and form from the inner bark layer. The formation of these roots are influenced by hormones (auxin and ethylene) and energy (sugar). Ethylene is produced by (among other things) wounding, so the combination of making a wound and keeping it smothered in sphagnum will allow ethylene to accumulate. Sugar and auxin will come down from the branch tip. In a normal single girdle air-layer, sugar and auxin will accumulate in the "upper lip" of the girdle (unable to go any farther because the phloem has been severed), and roots formation will be in that upper lip. In a double girdle such as Kitsune has diagrammed, the lateral branch between the two girdle sites has been transformed into the new "apical tip" for that segment, and sugar and auxin should travel pretty uniformly to both girdle sites. Hope that makes sense..... |
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