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#31
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Large scale permaculture
In article
, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote: "David Hare-Scott" wrote in message "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government to DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a veggie patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of plague might not be such a bad thing. Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian flu that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your neighbourhood? I hope not. So do I (when I'm not feeling particularly negative), but I would be surprised if we don't get another major pestilence of some sort. There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change, overpopulation, land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL be dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen to cause untold misery to billions along the way. At least 3 of those horsemen are already raging through the world in Iraq, Africa and each winter as Flu carts off a huge number of people. I can't quite see why the fourth wouldn't raise it's ugly head in due time too, but I do agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't wish for it. Atta girl. -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#32
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Large scale permaculture
In article , Charlie wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 12:00:51 +1000, "David Hare-Scott" wrote: "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote in message ... need to think outside the square, the answers will come and the sooner the better. No it won't. It will just continue with consumers telling the government to DO something. They are too lazy to do anything themselves like dig a veggie patch or even grow a few herbs. I despair of humanity. A good dose of plague might not be such a bad thing. Well it would rip right through those mega cities. A nice virulent avian flu that is human transmitted would do the trick, coming soon to your neighbourhood? I hope not. There is absolutely no doubt that in the end climate change, overpopulation, land degradation, water pollution, peak oil and daytime soap operas WILL be dealt with. The challenge is to do it without allowing the four horsemen to cause untold misery to billions along the way. David I fear that is not possible, David. Speaking truth to power has, in my experience, little effect, and history bears this out, as witnessed by various prophets, seers, visionaries, and other illuminated and schmart folks who were ignored by the rich and famous and powerful. Doesn't have much to do wit schmart people. Sensible people in industrial societies have fewer children. In the United States of you know who, each kid costs about a half million $. That is incentive to anyone who can use their brain. It is alos interesting that John prophesied so long ago about a world situation that is taking on an amazing resemblance to what he said. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSw...eature=related The challenge and the attempt are noble, and required, but I also fear we are simply ****in' in the wind. Yet try we must, while maintaining a watchful posture to sidestep what we are able. I hope I am wrong, but like farml, I too despair of humanity most times. Your a Lutheran aren't you Charlie? I listen to Prairie Home Companion and I'd recognize you anywhere. Just waiting for God's coup de gras? Well I think we would do just fine if we could get these freakin' parasites off'en us.(Like Gov. Shrub, he wasn't really elected to anything else). Charlie -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#33
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Large scale permaculture
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote: "Terryc" wrote in message ... J. Clarke wrote: How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really understand the problem. Who cares. Megatropoliss are not that great for the planet anyway and there is really no modern reason for them. How do we prevent them forming? How do take down the ones that are there? David Some are dense like NY. Others are burbs like LA. -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#34
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Large scale permaculture
In article , Charlie wrote:
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008 11:46:18 +1000, "David Hare-Scott" wrote: "Terryc" wrote in message ... J. Clarke wrote: How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really understand the problem. Who cares. Megatropoliss are not that great for the planet anyway and there is really no modern reason for them. How do we prevent them forming? How do take down the ones that are there? David The irony of the situation is that so many of these cities are being swelled by displaced farmers and those once dependant upon the land. Charlie Especially Mexico City. -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#35
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Large scale permaculture
In article ,
"David Hare-Scott" wrote: "len gardener" wrote in message ... On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:41:57 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: snipped How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really understand the problem. -- maybe john just maybe it is you who have no understanding of "the problem"?? Len I agree with your sentiments that we need to change our way of thinking but it will take more than that. once you take the liberty to pidgeon hole what is current then you take away any thinking outside the square. all tall buildings have rooves? there are balconies? Very harsh environments for growing, with much effort you could get some boutique crops but not enough to really matter. It would be very inefficient. Are you not listening? This is how Cubans get fed. If you don't want to eat, continue on with your ignorance. most cities have large parklands? Yes but the people need them. Sure strolling through a nice vege garden is relaxing but what of those who want to play sport etc? They won't feel like playing sports if they are hungry. Let's think priorities. No one said no sports fields. We're just saying first things first. Unlike: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006..._shut_down.php After weeks of tension, waiting, and nightly vigils, supporters of downtown South Central Farm in Los Angeles were awakened before dawn yesterday by sheriff¹s deputies forcing entry into the property. (See our prevous coverage here and here). Advocates of the farm, working with The Annenberg Foundation and the Trust for Public Land, were able to meet the $16 million asking price, albeit after the set deadline. Although the asking price was eventually met, landowner Ralph Horowitz rejected the offer and initiated the eviction. Supporters, both those camping inside and those in the surrounding streets, staged civil disobedience protests resulting in almost 50 arrests. Deputies in a 100 ft. fire department ladder truck cut away branches to remove and arrest Daryl Hannah and veteran tree-sitter John Quigley from the walnut tree they had been sitting in. More than 250 LAPD and Sheriff¹s Dept. officers flooded the surrounding area outfitted in riot gear and crowd-control weapons. Most arrestees spent less than six hours in jail and received minimal punishment. After supporters were removed from the farm by the sheriff¹s dept., Bobcat bulldozers, hired by Horowitz, proceeded to thrash and uproot plants and trees while flattening fences and the minimal infrastructure of the farm, a symbolic gesture of victory by the vilified Brentwood developer. LA Mayor Antonia Villaraigosa said he regretted the outcome and that he had made multiple appeals to the developer to accept the farmers¹ offer to buy. Advocates of the farm criticize the mayor and local Councilwoman Jan Perry for not doing more to sway the outcome. Daryl Hannah has become a recognized figurehead for the struggle to save the farm from development, and helped propel this most recent showdown into international view. By the time she was arrested yesterday she had spent more than three uninterrupted weeks encamped at the farm without returning to her Malibu home‹taking cold showers in the cornfields, and being the subject of daily media attention, as well as posting on her own vlog. ³I'm very confident this is the morally right thing to do, to take a principled stand in solidarity with the farmers,² she told the AP by cell phone before being removed from the tree yesterday. Hannah regrouped with supporters in the evening after her release for a press conference and an evening vigil near the now locked gates of the farm. Hannah will appear on Larry King Live tonight to discuss the issue. and New York Community Gardens http://www.earthcelebrations.com/gardens/10bc_1.html It almost makes you think that some people are born with "stupid genes". melbourne is noted for it's culturaly diversified gardens shared by occupants who live in medium to high rise tennaments. Melbourne is quite low density compared to the mega cities. The Aussie 1/4 acre block is very uncommon in many places. We have no experience of what really high density housing is like. and back in the 40's and 50's over here what produce the market farmers had left they took into the general market situated in the city proper where all could access it by various public transport, now the markets are so situated it is a hectic drive to even attempt to get there. And those market gardens have been swallowed up by housing developments that can hardly be torn down now. The population is 3 times what it was then. The institutions and organisation of 60 years ago will not serve for the next 60. Same in California, good agricultural land used for housing tracts. Just totally mindless. and people lived in suburbs and business was in the city. and in your scenerio or the current scenerio food is going to become very very expensive to buy i the cities, and much can happen to stop the harvest or the harvest being distributed, you may be affluent enough right now? but very many aren't and everyone could be in their shoes at any time. in the US of A some of the so called fresh food can be in transit for up to 2 weeks from what i have read at various times? i never said it was going to be easy, but when do we start? when it is way too late maybe? outside the square and the comfort zone. With peace and brightest of blessings, I support your philosophy that major change in how we deal with the world is essential. And backyard and inner city growing plots would certainly be a step in the right direction. But this will never be more than a minor part of the calories required to feed a big city. You are just blowing this out you burro. Read about the Cuban solution before you make such stupid comments. Look at the people who are doing this on a small scale (ie one or a few families). They need acres to do it. Evan if yields could be increased many times (doubtful, especially in Oz) Oz has the oldest and most depleted soils on the planet but it still seems with crop rotation and green manure, the situation could be turned around. those acres just aren't available in or near big cities, nor are the numbers of skilled people prepared to lovingly tend them. Some American you are. The American answer is supposed to be, why not? Local can be 100 miles, an hour and a half to two hour drive. If you can eat a plant within hours of its' harvest, you're not doing too bad. It is this very problem of the efficiency of scale that made me ask the question in the first place. I guess the question is what do you consider EFFICIENT? You won't mind if the rest of us eat while you explain. David -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#36
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Large scale permaculture
"Billy" wrote in message ... In article , "J. Clarke" wrote: len gardener wrote: On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:41:57 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: snipped How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really understand the problem. -- maybe john just maybe it is you who have no understanding of "the problem"?? once you take the liberty to pidgeon hole what is current then you take away any thinking outside the square. all tall buildings have rooves? there are balconies? most cities have large parklands? melbourne is noted for it's culturaly diversified gardens shared by occupants who live in medium to high rise tennaments. and back in the 40's and 50's over here what produce the market farmers had left they took into the general market situated in the city proper where all could access it by various public transport, now the markets are so situated it is a hectic drive to even attempt to get there. and people lived in suburbs and business was in the city. and in your scenerio or the current scenerio food is going to become very very expensive to buy i the cities, and much can happen to stop the harvest or the harvest being distributed, you may be affluent enough right now? but very many aren't and everyone could be in their shoes at any time. in the US of A some of the so called fresh food can be in transit for up to 2 weeks from what i have read at various times? i never said it was going to be easy, but when do we start? when it is way too late maybe? Demonstrate that you can feed half the population of Australia on 150 square miles of land. There is no "my scenario". We feed the populations of those cities now. The methods used may offend your sensibilities but they work. You are the one proposing pie in the sky without running the numbers and showing that they can work. -- No one ever said that you would make money with the "Cuban Solution". you'd just get fed. If you want capitalism, you'll need to go elsewhere. Roberto Perez, Cuban permaculturalist, recently visited NZ and Aus. He recounted an event from the Cuban 'special period' of a neighbourhood going to work with picks and axes on a car park in order to create a rudimentary garden. The concrete was split and pulled up and rough gardens created. The neighbourhood had precious few skills of farming, that came later. They found a piece of idle land and set about growing on it. That was extreme however, those people faced hunger or grow their own food. I guess hunger gives you some motivation eh. If the ground is used for something now, not to mean in a period of food shortage it won't quickly be converted. I have 5 raised beds in my 1/4 acre back yard, a small polytunnel & a good area of grass. My front lawn is in lawn as well. The neighbours on one side have a landscaped garden with rockeries. neighbours on the optherside have a cobbled back yard. If we had a food shortage I guess the rockeries & cobbled back yard would be secondary to growing some veges or having chickens. rob |
#37
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Large scale permaculture
George.com wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message ... In article , "J. Clarke" wrote: len gardener wrote: On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:41:57 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: snipped How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really understand the problem. -- maybe john just maybe it is you who have no understanding of "the problem"?? once you take the liberty to pidgeon hole what is current then you take away any thinking outside the square. all tall buildings have rooves? there are balconies? most cities have large parklands? melbourne is noted for it's culturaly diversified gardens shared by occupants who live in medium to high rise tennaments. and back in the 40's and 50's over here what produce the market farmers had left they took into the general market situated in the city proper where all could access it by various public transport, now the markets are so situated it is a hectic drive to even attempt to get there. and people lived in suburbs and business was in the city. and in your scenerio or the current scenerio food is going to become very very expensive to buy i the cities, and much can happen to stop the harvest or the harvest being distributed, you may be affluent enough right now? but very many aren't and everyone could be in their shoes at any time. in the US of A some of the so called fresh food can be in transit for up to 2 weeks from what i have read at various times? i never said it was going to be easy, but when do we start? when it is way too late maybe? Demonstrate that you can feed half the population of Australia on 150 square miles of land. There is no "my scenario". We feed the populations of those cities now. The methods used may offend your sensibilities but they work. You are the one proposing pie in the sky without running the numbers and showing that they can work. -- No one ever said that you would make money with the "Cuban Solution". you'd just get fed. If you want capitalism, you'll need to go elsewhere. Billy's post seems to have gotten lost in the ether, or maybe it's just taking forever to propagate, so I'm responding here. Who said anything about "make money"? You can get x amount of food off of y amount of land. You can feed z number of people with x amount of food. If y amount of land doesn't produce enough food for z number of people then any solution proposing to feed them off of that amount of land will not work. In most large cities (New York, Los Angeles, Bombay, etc) there is less than 500 square feet of land for each resident. After deducting for things like streets and sidewalks and considering that much of that space gets limited sunlight, can you grow enough safe, edible, uncontaminated food on what's left to feed the populace? Note that something that works in Cuba, where the population density in Havana is such that there is almost 5000 square feet of land for every resident, is not necessarily going to work where the population density is more than ten times as high. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#38
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Large scale permaculture
In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote: George.com wrote: "Billy" wrote in message ... In article , "J. Clarke" wrote: len gardener wrote: On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 14:41:57 -0400, "J. Clarke" wrote: snipped How do you make this system work for Los Angeles or Mexico City or Bombay? If the largest city you've seen is Sydney you don't really understand the problem. -- maybe john just maybe it is you who have no understanding of "the problem"?? once you take the liberty to pidgeon hole what is current then you take away any thinking outside the square. all tall buildings have rooves? there are balconies? most cities have large parklands? melbourne is noted for it's culturaly diversified gardens shared by occupants who live in medium to high rise tennaments. and back in the 40's and 50's over here what produce the market farmers had left they took into the general market situated in the city proper where all could access it by various public transport, now the markets are so situated it is a hectic drive to even attempt to get there. and people lived in suburbs and business was in the city. and in your scenerio or the current scenerio food is going to become very very expensive to buy i the cities, and much can happen to stop the harvest or the harvest being distributed, you may be affluent enough right now? but very many aren't and everyone could be in their shoes at any time. in the US of A some of the so called fresh food can be in transit for up to 2 weeks from what i have read at various times? i never said it was going to be easy, but when do we start? when it is way too late maybe? Demonstrate that you can feed half the population of Australia on 150 square miles of land. There is no "my scenario". We feed the populations of those cities now. The methods used may offend your sensibilities but they work. You are the one proposing pie in the sky without running the numbers and showing that they can work. -- No one ever said that you would make money with the "Cuban Solution". you'd just get fed. If you want capitalism, you'll need to go elsewhere. Billy's post seems to have gotten lost in the ether, or maybe it's just taking forever to propagate, so I'm responding here. Do you ever get into a conversation where you feel like there a two conversations going on? I'm having that feeling right now. Who said anything about "make money"? You did in your exchange with Len in which you accepted his evaluation of p/c and then, seemingly, blew it off. Len - " permaculture is more a mind set of ideas to look after the planet better, once commercialism comes into it then profit will over ride. David - "I agree about the mindset. But we are embedded in a largely free enterprise society in which you have to be commercially viable to keep going. If we get food riots, there may be some social readjustments. You can get x amount of food off of y amount of land. You can feed z number of people with x amount of food. If y amount of land doesn't produce enough food for z number of people then any solution proposing to feed them off of that amount of land will not work. In most large cities (New York, Los Angeles, Bombay, etc) there is less than 500 square feet of land for each resident. After deducting for things like streets and sidewalks and considering that much of that space gets limited sunlight, can you grow enough safe, edible, uncontaminated food on what's left to feed the populace? My guess is that form would follow function. No I don't think that New York City can grow, on its' own, sufficient produce for it's population (Although, cockroaches have more protein, pound for pound than beef, maybe urban ranching?). It is the sum of the efforts. Kansas grows more corn than it can use. Montana grows more wheat than it can use. Ideally, permaculture would address these conflicts. Monocultures are bad for flora, fauna, and the soil but economy of scale argues for extensive agricultural areas. Joel Salatin has done this for meat production. Now it needs to be extended into produce and grain production. The model would be urban produce grown wherever it can find a niche (house plants, balconies, patios, rooftops, community gardens [http://www.earthcelebrations.com/gardens/9bc.html]). Surrounding the cities would be a belt of truck farms and beyond the truck farms the large agricultural tracts of land*. The ideal is permaculture but as I said, form will follow function. The function is to get everyone fed, fed well, and renewing the land. The social frame work of the feeding is less important. *Work is being done on converting annual crops to perennial crops. Multiple crops could be grown in the same area e.g. grasses, ground cover, and root crops could coexist. The agricultural lands may even take on the aspect of parks. Note that something that works in Cuba, where the population density in Havana is such that there is almost 5000 square feet of land for every resident, is not necessarily going to work where the population density is more than ten times as high. -- -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#39
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Large scale permaculture
In article , Charlie wrote:
On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:10:24 -0700, Billy wrote: Your a Lutheran aren't you Charlie? I listen to Prairie Home Companion and I'd recognize you anywhere. Just waiting for God's coup de gras? Nice try. Please insert another quarter to play again. What? Not even a smiley face? You are in a mood;-) However, you are right, as usual. Millions of people around the world demonstrated against Gov. Shrub's (only office he was ever elected to) vanity war and they were ignored. Demonstrations never brought the boys back from Vietnam either. And we have seen that revolutions seem to get hijacked by hinderbinders that have their own agenda. Oh, remember that ****ing in the wind, especially on lemon trees, is OK. It's ****ing into the wind that creates problems;-) (learned this from Omelet, the smiley faces, not the ****ing, and I can't seem to stop:-) Well I think we would do just fine if we could get these freakin' parasites off'en us.(Like Gov. Shrub, he wasn't really elected to anything else). You really think so? There are will always be psycopaths and narcissists in the wings waiting to exert control over the masses. Twas ever thus. Charlie Fortunately, those who follow us will have their own hopes and dreams. Five thousand years ago, the Egyptians said that the world was going to ruin in a hand basket and here we are, still going. The rich keep trying to get richer. If we had a revolution, the new leaders would socialize the wealth and make themselves chairmen of the board. But seriously, something has to be done about feeding and housing the people living one $ 1- $2 a day (1/3 of the planet's pop.) before they come to our doors and take it. Hoping the daylight puts you into a better mood;-) dang! -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#40
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Large scale permaculture
whatever john?
for the records i haven't proposed anything i have merely help to raise the wareness that as supposedly (some of us maybe?) intelligent human beings we need to grasp the matter now as the changes needed in our cities and suburban planning are going to take some time to implement. but i guess for now your square and comfort zone are well in place. On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 22:03:35 -0400, "J. Clarke" snipped With peace and brightest of blessings, len & bev -- "Be Content With What You Have And May You Find Serenity and Tranquillity In A World That You May Not Understand." http://www.lensgarden.com.au/ |
#41
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Large scale permaculture
len gardener wrote:
whatever john? for the records i haven't proposed anything i have merely help to raise the wareness that as supposedly (some of us maybe?) intelligent human beings we need to grasp the matter now as the changes needed in our cities and suburban planning are going to take some time to implement. but i guess for now your square and comfort zone are well in place. So you don't have a proposal, you just want to "raise the wareness"? Why not instead work toward finding a solution that will work and then proving that it will work? But no, you'd rather just "raise the wareness" because that doesn't actually require any _effort_ on your part. -- -- --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net) |
#42
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Large scale permaculture
In article , Charlie wrote:
On Wed, 09 Apr 2008 09:43:52 -0700, Billy wrote: In article , Charlie wrote: On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:10:24 -0700, Billy wrote: Your a Lutheran aren't you Charlie? I listen to Prairie Home Companion and I'd recognize you anywhere. Just waiting for God's coup de gras? Nice try. Please insert another quarter to play again. What? Not even a smiley face? You are in a mood;-) However, you are right, as usual. Millions of people around the world demonstrated against Gov. Shrub's (only office he was ever elected to) vanity war and they were ignored. Demonstrations never brought the boys back from Vietnam either. And we have seen that revolutions seem to get hijacked by hinderbinders that have their own agenda. Heh. Sorry friend. I figgered giving you a nip was safer, and would be tolerated better than nipping someone else, like my Lovey fer instance. ;-) Yeah, bit of a downcycle today. You know the routine. I have found that contained within the major fluctuations there are some minor ones as well. Kinda sucks sometimes. Been feeling the need for a couple days, but have resisted, as at this time I am well aware of where this would lead. What I need is to be able to go wallow in the soil and get the back of me neck redded and wear myself out physically. Days on end of cloudy rainy weather, this time of year, are not good for me. And they are calling for three more with snow on two of them. But I'll be alright, just gotta wait it out sometimes. Oh, remember that ****ing in the wind, especially on lemon trees, is OK. It's ****ing into the wind that creates problems;-) (learned this from Omelet, the smiley faces, not the ****ing, and I can't seem to stop:-) Heh heh, gotta remember which way to face when fertilizing. :-) Well I think we would do just fine if we could get these freakin' parasites off'en us.(Like Gov. Shrub, he wasn't really elected to anything else). You really think so? There are will always be psycopaths and narcissists in the wings waiting to exert control over the masses. Twas ever thus. Charlie Fortunately, those who follow us will have their own hopes and dreams. Five thousand years ago, the Egyptians said that the world was going to ruin in a hand basket and here we are, still going. The rich keep trying to get richer. If we had a revolution, the new leaders would socialize the wealth and make themselves chairmen of the board. But you must keep in mind, the Egyptian world did go, as the world only extended to the limits of their knowledge. So it was for other societys. Unfortunately we have finally become viral and spread worldwide, so it only stands to reason, since the house of cards is now a global house of cards, for all intents and purposes of economics and dependencies, that a collapse will be of epic proportions. Collapses of yesteryear were of epic proportion to those who collapsed. And it is intersesting that much of the turmoil, given our global dependency upon oil, is centered in one of large oil producing areas of the world,which by coincidence is also home to several of the worlds warring religions, and which coincidentlay id rumored to be the cradle of civilization. But, having said this, I realize that for the most part, our knowledge, though worldwide and extending a very tiny way into space, is limited and we make our prophesies and predictions based upon this limited knowledge. All comes down to we really don't know shit from shinola. The prophets of old may have been inspired (I do believe that some of us have seen with other eyes and things didn't appear the same ever after), but it is now not hard to see and project into the future the results of our actions. Destruction of resources and warring and food insufficiency on regional scales have simply gone global and a contraction is coming. Logistics bears this out. But, as you say, perhaps the generations that make it, will have dreams that don't involve control and such and make a better go of it. SO, I quess our task is to try and ensure that some knowledge and some of the good ideals and dreams get passed on to the next generations. I'm doing my damndest to see to this. As far as predictions of the end and God destroying us, God needn't lift a finger to end this. We are doing quite well ourselves and I am confident we shall succeed in our endeavour. We have freewill to do as we choose. But seriously, something has to be done about feeding and housing the people living one $ 1- $2 a day (1/3 of the planet's pop.) before they come to our doors and take it. See above. Hoping the daylight puts you into a better mood;-) dang! Actually, a little sunshine has helped considerably, though I'm still feelin' a little frosty. Maybe catch ya' later, maybe not til the morning, but I'm quite sure though that many of the good folk round these here parts are hopin' for much later. ;-) Charlie I'm tellin' ya Charlie, it's no use coddling 'em. They're just gonna have ta grow up. If gardeners can't be civil, I guess there isn't any hope for anyone:-( Sorry to hear about the rain and snow. To top it all off, there was a report that La Nina might foreshadow a drought. Interesting times indeed. Well, I got my flour. Twenty-five pounds of it @ $2.29/5 lb. I may end up looking like a fool but I'll eat the flour eventually. It's just basic unbleached white flour. I'd like to have gotten whole wheat flour but I'm afraid the germ would make it go rancid. Now to get some hermetically sealed containers and some of that dry ice you was talking about. Hell. I may have a cylinder of CO2 out in the garage. I'd better check. Later. -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#43
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Large scale permaculture
In article ,
"J. Clarke" wrote: len gardener wrote: whatever john? for the records i haven't proposed anything i have merely help to raise the wareness that as supposedly (some of us maybe?) intelligent human beings we need to grasp the matter now as the changes needed in our cities and suburban planning are going to take some time to implement. but i guess for now your square and comfort zone are well in place. So you don't have a proposal, you just want to "raise the wareness"? Why not instead work toward finding a solution that will work and then proving that it will work? But no, you'd rather just "raise the wareness" because that doesn't actually require any _effort_ on your part. -- The main thing to being a good conversationalist, is being a good listener. No one is offering a 5 year plan but we know what the results should look like. There are many roads up the mountain. What we are doing now hasn't worked, isn't working, and won't work in the future. Mining the top soil is a horribly bad idea. -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
#44
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Large scale permaculture
In article , Charlie wrote:
We recently popped open a bucket of cornmeal on it's tenth anniversary of entering into storage. Smelled and tasted just fine. Been stored at a constant 50-60 F. As far as the CO2 tank, I would think you would need a *very* slooow release so as to percolate thru the density. Feed your CO2 or nitrogen or dry ice from the bottom, as you no doubt realize. And fer cryin' out loud, don't do it in a small space. Ventilation. And if you use dry ice, I used a chunk about the size of a small fist, busted up, on the bottom, dumped in the goodies and set the lid on loosely and give it overnight to do it's thing, and then hammer home the lid without having disturbed the container. If you want double insurance, toss in O2 absorbers right before sealing. I also tossed in the bottom of each container a goodly sized packet of silica gel fer the heck of it. Have any questions, ask. I've been thru this thoroughly. Charlie What kind of containers do you use? I'm thinking those snap top containers with the rubber gaskets like the Grolsch beer bottles, 'cept wider. Nitrogen is a waste of money. It is (effectively) the same density as air (which is 70% nitrogen) and just stirs things up. CO2 and argon are heavier than air and will displace it. Still, it is best to do a long slow overkill with it. Where do you get O2 absorbers? Got the first of the plastic sheets onto the pepper garden today. Our days have been nice, cool breezy afternoons, nearly freezing at night. The mosquitos are back:-( -- Billy Impeach Pelosi, Bush & Cheney to the Hague http://angryarab.blogspot.com/ http://rachelcorriefoundation.org/ |
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Large scale permaculture
"len gardener" wrote in message ... g'day david, as humasn we need to get aways from the broadacre export farmer mentality, the cost to habitat destruction is huge, and it also impacts on our weather ie.,. reducing our chances of rain in the droughts that are part of earths cycle. the b/a farmers here decimate vast aeas of habitat on somewaht merginal ground, and after around 7 +- years they simply move on and leave the newly created desert behind there is no requirement as there is with mining to rehabilitate the area as they further encroach. our farmers need to be in our communities where on small holdings maybe up to 40 acres +- they produce in season staples for those communities and supplied from farmer to consumer no middle man, the farmer then gets to share the common wealth of his community, instead of the way they now do it through a series of middle men who onsell not so fresh food at prices people can barely afford and not representative of what the farmers meager offering was. like that adelaide hills thing that land should basically be returned to habitat is has always been very marginal land (why do people think the farmers walked away from it after they ahd milked it for waht they could?), anyone living there should alocate enough land use for their own personnal food needs, as any commercial venture sooner or later is driven by the need for more and more turn over. people can grow enough of the non staples their family needs in a very small space, we had this type of system back in the late 40's and into the 50's+, fresh in season food was affordable for all families, and the food miles was very low so another positive factor, the farmer casme around a couple or so times a week selling fresh produce, or we went to the farm. eggs were right there as fresh as the day from the farm, and fresh unadulterated milk was delivered intoi 1 gallon stainless billy at our front door not sure may have been each second day?? homes should be modest enough and land sufficient enough for families to grow some of their own. so to me the permaculture sustainable farmer is the one who is moving closer to his consumers, not lauding themselves growing stuff on denuded dry habitat land. mollison uses those asian communities in asia where the farmer is a neighbour and produces all the staples for that neighbourhood, makes a lot of sense and no good putting it in the too hard basket because if the oil crisis is as bad as what is indicated then our broadacre farmers are going to have huge problems getting their produce to market at an affordable profit making price. need to think outside the square, the answers will come and the sooner the better. On Tue, 8 Apr 2008 11:15:17 +1000, "David Hare-Scott" wrote: snipped With peace and brightest of blessings, len & bev Len I seem to have missed this post somehow and gone on to reply to you further down the thread - maybe I have a propagation problem, I swear I couldn't see this yesterday. Anyway I find much good sense in what you say here. I recall fondly the market gardens embedded in or close to the city and it does make sense in a world where transport costs are set to rise hugely. But how to stop or even reverse the trend of turning such areas into housing? David |
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