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#1
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Gardengal
Gardengal,
my argument with you wasn't personal. It was with the facts. Lord knows I've been on the dirty end of the stick enough time but each time I learned from it (I think I have, anyway) and moved on. There are many posters here asking for help, especially at this time of the year, and your knowledge and experience can greatly benefit all of us. Speaking for myself, I hope that you'll continue to post in the "wrecked gardens". Sincerely, -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
#2
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Gardengal
In article
, Billy wrote: Gardengal, my argument with you wasn't personal. It was with the facts. Lord knows I've been on the dirty end of the stick enough time but each time I learned from it (I think I have, anyway) and moved on. There are many posters here asking for help, especially at this time of the year, and your knowledge and experience can greatly benefit all of us. Speaking for myself, I hope that you'll continue to post in the "wrecked gardens". Sincerely, Well Spoken ! Bill who has read many books and retains perhaps 5 %. Of this 5 % there are many differences and the water gets muddy often a fancy way of saying confusion . Still I think of the idea that amongst the muddy water try to remember the purity of the lotus . http://www.writespirit.net/blog/images/bali-lotus.jpg -- Garden in shade zone 5 S Jersey USA Not all who wander are lost. - J.R.R. Tolkien (1892-1973) |
#3
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Gardengal
On Apr 7, 11:00*am, Billy wrote:
Gardengal, my argument with you wasn't personal. Ah, but YOU made it personal. Personal attacks and rudeness have no value and very little place on a gardening forum. That you cannot enter into a civilized discourse without them says a lot about you and the confidence you have in your opinions. It was with the facts. Really. The facts according whom? What you did was take information out of context and blow it up out of proportion to the specific question. No one was disputing that soil organisms can have an influence on soil pH but it is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Other factors have a far greater influence. And they typically react to existing conditions rather than creating their own. The facts are that plants do not create soil chemistry or even alter it to any significant degree - it is what it is independent of them. Lord knows I've been on the dirty end of the stick enough time but each time I learned from it (I think I have, anyway) and moved on. There are many posters here asking for help, especially at this time of the year, and your knowledge and experience can greatly benefit all of us. Speaking for myself, I hope that you'll continue to post in the "wrecked gardens". I have no intention of being run off by the likes of you. I am extremely secure in my education and my knowledge - I've been in the horticultural industry for a long time - and I will offer advice and suggestions to the best of my ability to those whom I think can benefit from it. However, I do accept your apology....or whatever it is. It's the first semi-gracious thing I've seen you write,ses |
#4
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Gardengal
Self esteem: check Ego: check. Hubris: check
Looks like she's good to go. So tranquility returns to the little band of intrepid gardeners. See them racking the ground smooth. Others are laying out the seed beds, while others wrap tape around their rolls of dimes. In article , gardengal wrote: On Apr 7, 11:00*am, Billy wrote: Gardengal, my argument with you wasn't personal. Ah, but YOU made it personal. Personal attacks and rudeness have no value and very little place on a gardening forum. That you cannot enter into a civilized discourse without them says a lot about you and the confidence you have in your opinions. It was with the facts. Really. The facts according whom? What you did was take information out of context and blow it up out of proportion to the specific question. No one was disputing that soil organisms can have an influence on soil pH but it is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Other factors have a far greater influence. And they typically react to existing conditions rather than creating their own. The facts are that plants do not create soil chemistry or even alter it to any significant degree - it is what it is independent of them. Lord knows I've been on the dirty end of the stick enough time but each time I learned from it (I think I have, anyway) and moved on. There are many posters here asking for help, especially at this time of the year, and your knowledge and experience can greatly benefit all of us. Speaking for myself, I hope that you'll continue to post in the "wrecked gardens". I have no intention of being run off by the likes of you. I am extremely secure in my education and my knowledge - I've been in the horticultural industry for a long time - and I will offer advice and suggestions to the best of my ability to those whom I think can benefit from it. However, I do accept your apology....or whatever it is. It's the first semi-gracious thing I've seen you write,ses -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
#5
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Gardengal
In article
, gardengal wrote: On Apr 7, 11:00*am, Billy wrote: Gardengal, my argument with you wasn't personal. Ah, but YOU made it personal. Personal attacks and rudeness have no value and very little place on a gardening forum. That you cannot enter into a civilized discourse without them says a lot about you and the confidence you have in your opinions. It was with the facts. Really. The facts according whom? What you did was take information out of context and blow it up out of proportion to the specific question. No one was disputing that soil organisms can have an influence on soil pH but it is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Other factors have a far greater influence. And they typically react to existing conditions rather than creating their own. The facts are that plants do not create soil chemistry or even alter it to any significant degree - it is what it is independent of them. Lord knows I've been on the dirty end of the stick enough time but each time I learned from it (I think I have, anyway) and moved on. There are many posters here asking for help, especially at this time of the year, and your knowledge and experience can greatly benefit all of us. Speaking for myself, I hope that you'll continue to post in the "wrecked gardens". I have no intention of being run off by the likes of you. I am extremely secure in my education and my knowledge - I've been in the horticultural industry for a long time - and I will offer advice and suggestions to the best of my ability to those whom I think can benefit from it. Excellent, please stay. One does need mental callouses here and in life general. Take and give what you want and ignore the rest. If some one hands out a personal attack - just smile and move on. I, like many others here have enjoyed a good slam at others also. Smile and Enjoy Life. I have found this newsgroup has many well educated university degreed individuals. A most useful newsgroup. Enjoy Life ... Dan -- Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
#6
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Gardengal
With our heavy freeze warning for tonight, people in this area better be
covering up any plants they have out. "Billy" wrote in message ... Self esteem: check Ego: check. Hubris: check Looks like she's good to go. So tranquility returns to the little band of intrepid gardeners. See them racking the ground smooth. Others are laying out the seed beds, while others wrap tape around their rolls of dimes. In article , gardengal wrote: On Apr 7, 11:00 am, Billy wrote: Gardengal, my argument with you wasn't personal. Ah, but YOU made it personal. Personal attacks and rudeness have no value and very little place on a gardening forum. That you cannot enter into a civilized discourse without them says a lot about you and the confidence you have in your opinions. It was with the facts. Really. The facts according whom? What you did was take information out of context and blow it up out of proportion to the specific question. No one was disputing that soil organisms can have an influence on soil pH but it is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Other factors have a far greater influence. And they typically react to existing conditions rather than creating their own. The facts are that plants do not create soil chemistry or even alter it to any significant degree - it is what it is independent of them. Lord knows I've been on the dirty end of the stick enough time but each time I learned from it (I think I have, anyway) and moved on. There are many posters here asking for help, especially at this time of the year, and your knowledge and experience can greatly benefit all of us. Speaking for myself, I hope that you'll continue to post in the "wrecked gardens". I have no intention of being run off by the likes of you. I am extremely secure in my education and my knowledge - I've been in the horticultural industry for a long time - and I will offer advice and suggestions to the best of my ability to those whom I think can benefit from it. However, I do accept your apology....or whatever it is. It's the first semi-gracious thing I've seen you write,ses -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
#7
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Gardengal
Dan L. wrote:
In article , gardengal wrote: On Apr 7, 11:00?am, Billy wrote: Gardengal, my argument with you wasn't personal. Ah, but YOU made it personal. Personal attacks and rudeness have no value and very little place on a gardening forum. That you cannot enter into a civilized discourse without them says a lot about you and the confidence you have in your opinions. It was with the facts. Really. The facts according whom? What you did was take information out of context and blow it up out of proportion to the specific question. No one was disputing that soil organisms can have an influence on soil pH but it is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Other factors have a far greater influence. And they typically react to existing conditions rather than creating their own. The facts are that plants do not create soil chemistry or even alter it to any significant degree - it is what it is independent of them. Lord knows I've been on the dirty end of the stick enough time but each time I learned from it (I think I have, anyway) and moved on. There are many posters here asking for help, especially at this time of the year, and your knowledge and experience can greatly benefit all of us. Speaking for myself, I hope that you'll continue to post in the "wrecked gardens". I have no intention of being run off by the likes of you. I am extremely secure in my education and my knowledge - I've been in the horticultural industry for a long time - and I will offer advice and suggestions to the best of my ability to those whom I think can benefit from it. Excellent, please stay. One does need mental callouses here and in life general. Take and give what you want and ignore the rest. If some one hands out a personal attack - just smile and move on. I, like many others here have enjoyed a good slam at others also. Smile and Enjoy Life. I have found this newsgroup has many well educated university degreed individuals. A most useful newsgroup. Enjoy Life ... Dan Dan, While I agree with you that there are still some very knowledgeable people that post, there are MANY of us that post a lot less (or not at all) because of all the "noise" here. Not only is all the off topic stuff distracting the name calling (and worse) is good reason to abandon these newsgroups. There are many moderated garden boards where the people are civil (or else) and that is where a lot of us have gone. -- Bill R. (Ohio Valley, U.S.A) "You are never to old to play in the dirt" To see pictures from my garden visit http://members.iglou.com/brosen Digital Camera - Pentax *ist DL Remove NO_WEEDS_ in e-mail address to reply by e-mail |
#8
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Gardengal
In article ,
Gary Woods wrote: Charlie wrote: What about us pig-ignernt autodidacts? Are we useful too?? At least those of us who repeatedly made the "Dean's Other List" Jimmy has two lists? probably have a good dose of common sense. Which, apologies to Gallagher, isn't all that common. Uh, you apologized to the wrong guy. To quote Fr Jim Tucker, "All of this should go without saying, but common sense is surprisingly uncommon." According to our oft absent, acerbic, taskmaster, Bill R., most of this should go without saying. His vision of rec.gardens appears to be on of terse questions and responses, both of which should be brief and to the point, lacking any sign of humanity or individuality. Some of us prefer "wrecked gardens" because it feels less "buttoned down" and more human. I'm not knocking Bill R. for his attitude. In truth, he posts extraneous material ("Digital Camera - Pentax *ist DL"), he shows individuality, ("You are never to old to play in the dirt"), and posts on how the way things should be (see his post above). I'm not sure what "noise" Bill R. would be referring to, but by any measure, the preponderance of what gets posted here has to do with the hows and the whys of gardening, and the social forces affecting gardening, whether it be dumb Ag policies, or companies like Monsanto trying to create a monopoly on seeds, to the detriment of gardeners and farmers alike, or companies like ConAgra encouraging and facilitating the consumption of nutrient deficient, processed foods, or the dangers of ingesting produce imbued with herbicide/pesticide residues, or health concerns about exotic proteins from GMO crops. It seems, to me, those subjects should all be fair game for a gardening forum. Then their are the unfortunate ones like keelematt who comes along like so many before, apparently oblivious to the reasons behind the organic movement, saying, in effect, that they have poured gallon$ of herbicide$/in$ecticide$ on a problem, but the problem persists, and should they pour more? Having civilly answered this question ad nauseam times before, I would beg some understanding for those of us who try to get the posters attention, and the attention of others who are tempted to post similar questions, by hitting them over the head with a (figuratively) 2" X 4". Poisoning the planet is a bad idea. Why don't people see that? Charlie has posted on soil amendments like special clays, charcoal, pointed out the dubious wisdom of spreading toxic, mine tailings on lawns and gardens, shared his experience with different garden cultivars, and noted the effect on the quality and cost of produce because of government policies. Bill W. brings an understated sensibility of gardening to the groups, as well as some culture, inspired by what we like, so much, to do. Often, he is first with a site, which will resolve a poster's problem. Maddie finds ways of inspiring some of the most slothful of us with her reflections on gardening, and time, and place. (Thanks Maddie, I'll be out this week end checking the prices on "Easter Lilies") Jangchub, for all her drama, responds with advice on a myriad of subjects and even shares from from her labors. Hopefully, brooklin1, will dial back his abrasiveness to more conventional invectives and venues, because he also has much to offer. Although, I presume, the above are the malefactors of your ire, Bill R. don't forget the majority of irreplaceable and helpful people here like: Bungadora Cheryl Isaak Chookie David E. Ross David Hare-Scott Emilie Enigma FarmI Glenna Rose Ingrid Jan Flora Kay Lancaster Lilah Morgan Omelet Pat in Plymouth Susan N, The Cook Val Apologies to those not mentioned, it's a big team. To paraphrase Shakespear,"All the world is a garden, and in our time, we all get to play many parts." So, "wrecked gardeners" get out your shovels and rakes. Tape up those rolls of dimes, it's time to rum . . . uh, garden ;O) Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |
#9
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Gardengal
In article , Charlie wrote:
On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:24:36 -0400, "Dan L." wrote: I have found this newsgroup has many well educated university degreed individuals. A most useful newsgroup. Meaning??? What about us pig-ignernt autodidacts? Are we useful too?? Ain't it a funny thing..... and 'twas ever thus. Sniff, sniff..... Charlie Well Charley, your knowledge of gardening is greater than mine. The University of Self Taught is also of great importance. My degree is in Computer Science, not Horticulture. I am just finishing the educational part of the MSU Master Gardener Volunteers program. I depend on this newsgroup for knowledge and my entertainment Enjoy Life ... Dan -- Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
#10
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Gardengal
Billy wrote:
So, "wrecked gardeners" get out your shovels and rakes. Tape up those rolls of dimes, it's time to rum . . . uh, garden ;O) As for the deer, more serious weaponry may be allowed? I'm making major height improvements to my electric fence this spring, as well as a more serious campaign of baiting it with bits of aluminum foil coated with peanut butter for aversion training. Maybe I'll get more than two heads of radicchio for Dear Lady to put in her excellent salads. As for who first noted the rarity of common sense, it's probably like *Hanlon/Heinlein's law, evident enough to have been commented on by various folk. I don't find the noise level objectionable; certainly less than the average pub approaching closing time, if memory serves. And I do observe that in many conversations the really good stuff is in the digressions. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G *"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity." |
#11
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Gardengal
In article ,
Gary Woods wrote: Billy wrote: So, "wrecked gardeners" get out your shovels and rakes. Tape up those rolls of dimes, it's time to rum . . . uh, garden ;O) As for the deer, more serious weaponry may be allowed? I'm making major height improvements to my electric fence this spring, as well as a more serious campaign of baiting it with bits of aluminum foil coated with peanut butter for aversion training. Maybe I'll get more than two heads of radicchio for Dear Lady to put in her excellent salads. Have you tried hanging bars of "irish spring" bar soap from your fence? I have read that this may work in keeping deer away. The soap smells like humans. Deer here can jump a six foot fence with ease, electric or not. Thanks for the idea of planting radicchio as deer bait. My apple and pear trees are taking too long to grow by the deer blind. Will radicchio last through November ... hmmmm. Enjoy Life ... Dan -- Garden in Zone 5 South East Michigan. |
#12
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Gardengal
Charlie wrote:
On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:06:26 -0400, Bill R wrote: Dan L. wrote: In article , gardengal wrote: On Apr 7, 11:00?am, Billy wrote: Gardengal, my argument with you wasn't personal. Ah, but YOU made it personal. Personal attacks and rudeness have no value and very little place on a gardening forum. That you cannot enter into a civilized discourse without them says a lot about you and the confidence you have in your opinions. It was with the facts. Really. The facts according whom? What you did was take information out of context and blow it up out of proportion to the specific question. No one was disputing that soil organisms can have an influence on soil pH but it is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Other factors have a far greater influence. And they typically react to existing conditions rather than creating their own. The facts are that plants do not create soil chemistry or even alter it to any significant degree - it is what it is independent of them. Lord knows I've been on the dirty end of the stick enough time but each time I learned from it (I think I have, anyway) and moved on. There are many posters here asking for help, especially at this time of the year, and your knowledge and experience can greatly benefit all of us. Speaking for myself, I hope that you'll continue to post in the "wrecked gardens". I have no intention of being run off by the likes of you. I am extremely secure in my education and my knowledge - I've been in the horticultural industry for a long time - and I will offer advice and suggestions to the best of my ability to those whom I think can benefit from it. Excellent, please stay. One does need mental callouses here and in life general. Take and give what you want and ignore the rest. If some one hands out a personal attack - just smile and move on. I, like many others here have enjoyed a good slam at others also. Smile and Enjoy Life. I have found this newsgroup has many well educated university degreed individuals. A most useful newsgroup. Enjoy Life ... Dan Dan, While I agree with you that there are still some very knowledgeable people that post, there are MANY of us that post a lot less (or not at all) because of all the "noise" here. Not only is all the off topic stuff distracting the name calling (and worse) is good reason to abandon these newsgroups. There are many moderated garden boards where the people are civil (or else) and that is where a lot of us have gone. God, I'll bet you're a barrel of fun to spend a day with, Bill, working in the garden. Charlie Charlie, That is why I don't care for your posts. You don't know me from Adam yet you are *so* judgmental about all my posts. As far as I'm concerned you can ruin this newsgroup all you want with your WAY off topic posts and your very strange politics. I'll take my gardening knowledge elsewhere. You (and a few others) have managed to chase a lot of longtime posters away and that is a shame but not the end of the world. There are many garden boards that are still very useful and the *best* thing is that they only allow GARDENING post (*NO* politics). This group was going long before you started dragging it down and will go on long after you (and I) are gone. It is just ashame that it has come to this. -- Bill R. (Ohio Valley, U.S.A) "You are never to old to play in the dirt" To see pictures from my garden visit http://members.iglou.com/brosen Digital Camera - Pentax *ist DL Remove NO_WEEDS_ in e-mail address to reply by e-mail |
#13
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Gardengal
Charlie wrote:
On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 18:53:40 -0400, Bill R wrote: Charlie wrote: On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 11:06:26 -0400, Bill R wrote: Dan L. wrote: In article , gardengal wrote: On Apr 7, 11:00?am, Billy wrote: Gardengal, my argument with you wasn't personal. Ah, but YOU made it personal. Personal attacks and rudeness have no value and very little place on a gardening forum. That you cannot enter into a civilized discourse without them says a lot about you and the confidence you have in your opinions. It was with the facts. Really. The facts according whom? What you did was take information out of context and blow it up out of proportion to the specific question. No one was disputing that soil organisms can have an influence on soil pH but it is relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. Other factors have a far greater influence. And they typically react to existing conditions rather than creating their own. The facts are that plants do not create soil chemistry or even alter it to any significant degree - it is what it is independent of them. Lord knows I've been on the dirty end of the stick enough time but each time I learned from it (I think I have, anyway) and moved on. There are many posters here asking for help, especially at this time of the year, and your knowledge and experience can greatly benefit all of us. Speaking for myself, I hope that you'll continue to post in the "wrecked gardens". I have no intention of being run off by the likes of you. I am extremely secure in my education and my knowledge - I've been in the horticultural industry for a long time - and I will offer advice and suggestions to the best of my ability to those whom I think can benefit from it. Excellent, please stay. One does need mental callouses here and in life general. Take and give what you want and ignore the rest. If some one hands out a personal attack - just smile and move on. I, like many others here have enjoyed a good slam at others also. Smile and Enjoy Life. I have found this newsgroup has many well educated university degreed individuals. A most useful newsgroup. Enjoy Life ... Dan Dan, While I agree with you that there are still some very knowledgeable people that post, there are MANY of us that post a lot less (or not at all) because of all the "noise" here. Not only is all the off topic stuff distracting the name calling (and worse) is good reason to abandon these newsgroups. There are many moderated garden boards where the people are civil (or else) and that is where a lot of us have gone. God, I'll bet you're a barrel of fun to spend a day with, Bill, working in the garden. Charlie Charlie, That is why I don't care for your posts. You don't know me from Adam yet you are *so* judgmental about all my posts. As far as I'm concerned you can ruin this newsgroup all you want with your WAY off topic posts and your very strange politics. I'll take my gardening knowledge elsewhere. You call it judment, I call it discernment. What politics are strange? Those that differ from yours? Why don't you take exception to each and every OT post that shows here that goes against your system of thought? I could not care less if you take your ideas and advocacy concerning the continuation of the poisoning of my planet elsewhere. People need to stand up against planet-rapers. You (and a few others) have managed to chase a lot of longtime posters away and that is a shame but not the end of the world. And your, and others, advocacy of the chemical solution may have accomplished the same thing with new lurkers and posters. It may have started the slow poisoning of a child......the chemical solution *is* the end of the world. There are many garden boards that are still very useful and the *best* thing is that they only allow GARDENING post (*NO* politics). This group was going long before you started dragging it down and will go on long after you (and I) are gone. It is just ashame that it has come to this. Diversity is a wonderful thing, and has kept this here old world choogling along for a loooonnng time. The destruction of diversity, in ideas, in society.... and *in the garden* is an evil thing, my friend. I should not bother to even reply to you but you do need to know one fact. I, myself, am an organic gardener and ONE TIME I suggested the use of fertilizer and since then you been on my case (so much for your "so called" discernment). And, in my area (farm country), fertilizer is used by EVERY farmer I know. You can complain about that all you want and "go off the deep end" and say that farmers are destroying your world. I know for a fact that my grandkids are much healthier BECAUSE of farmers use of fertilizers and the better crops that they produce. You may think that you are "saving the planet" but you are only fooling yourself. Don't bother to reply. I know I can't change your mind and you won't change mine so don't waste your words on me. -- Bill R. (Ohio Valley, U.S.A) "You are never to old to play in the dirt" To see pictures from my garden visit http://members.iglou.com/brosen Digital Camera - Pentax *ist DL Remove NO_WEEDS_ in e-mail address to reply by e-mail |
#14
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Gardengal
Bill R wrote:
I know for a fact that my grandkids are much healthier BECAUSE of farmers use of fertilizers and the better crops that they produce. Some might dispute that. I'd rather get worked up over mega corporations bent on dominating the world's seed, and therefore food, supply. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G |
#15
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Gardengal
In article ,
Gary Woods wrote: Bill R wrote: I know for a fact that my grandkids are much healthier BECAUSE of farmers use of fertilizers and the better crops that they produce. Some might dispute that. I'd rather get worked up over mega corporations bent on dominating the world's seed, and therefore food, supply. Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G They are essentially the same people. Chemferts kill the soil organisms which leads to loss of top soil. Chemferts (nitrates) have infiltrated the aquifers of the midwest and are poisonous to children. Chemfert run-off pollutes our water ways and creates a 22126 square kilometre (8543 mi?) region in the Gulf of Mexico called a dead zone around the mouth of the Mississippi River. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...31/ST200807310 0349.html Chemferts encourage huge monoculture planting of GM corn, GM soybean, GM cotton in the same place, over and over, allowing organisms that attack them to build-up in the soil, requiring more and more pesticides. This is encouraged by Monsanto, that sells the seeds, and companies like Cargill who process and fractionate the crops, and companies like Phillip Morris (now Altria Group) who sell the cheap, nutrient deficient food to the American public. It's all cut from the same cloth Dan. -- - Billy "For the first time in the history of the world, every human being is now subjected to contact with dangerous chemicals, from the moment of conception until death." - Rachel Carson http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI29wVQN8Go http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html |