Dan L wrote:
....
Why add sand?
I thought sand + clay = concrete.

when it dries too much yea, that's about
what happens if there is no organic matter
to keep it lightened up or if it is left
bare between crops. it's does a number on
the hands trying to weed or plant.


I believe organic material alone will help modify the soil.

the reconditioned area i did this past summer
had nothing added to the clay besides it being
killed off (to get rid of the sow thistle that
was taking over). then i tilled it a few inches
deep to give seedlings a chance to get roots
down in and to soak up the rain (instead of it
running off the compacted soil). oh and i took
the advantage of it being all dug up and leveled
it more to keep the water from running off
too quickly into the east ditch.

i seeded it with two legumes, alfalfa and
birdsfoot trefoil (in a spiral pattern). it
took a while to get going, the alfalfa has very
deep roots after several years and will help
break through that clay hardpan layer that
often develops. both were chosen for color,
and because they fix nitrogen. if they are
mowed they both come back low growing and
with some color, but so far we haven't had
to mow there.

this was left to grow (i only walked on a
certain pathway to avoid compacting the soil
again). this fall i had to move a rhubarb
plant and there was a spot along the edge of
this whole patch where i wanted to put the
rhubarb... that gave me a chance to check
out the depth of the roots from the alfalfa
and trefoil and to see how the soil was
doing. we hadn't had much rain late in the
summer, but this fall the rains have been
enough to keep it moist and the worms have
been going nuts as compared to how it used
to look. there were not very many worm signs
before. when i was digging there were plenty
of worms so i'm taking that as a good sign.
and the times when i've walked across it it
has been soft and squishy instead of like
walking on pavement. so from that i'd say
that tilling and staying off it while
replanting can be a good approach as long
as you don't need to run a mower over it or
walk on it when the seedlings are starting.

the alfalfa will take several years to get
the deep roots established. we'd tried an
alfalfa patch before for the purple flowers
but it was not left long enough to get
established before it was changed to another
garden. so this time we'll leave it for
a longer time period and see how this all
works out.

i may intercrop it next year with beans
to take advantage of the space and get some
return on the weeding.

i'm hoping this winter the deer will
bed down back there and eat that area up
instead of messing around in the other
garden they've been using that is much
closer to the house (about 20ft from
where i'm typing this from -- i'd like
to sleep instead of hearing them clomping
around at 4am).


songbird

Una wrote:
Dan L wrote:
Are you saying sand+organic is better than organic alone as a soil
amendment?

Depends on the makeup of the soil already there.

My soil is mostly sand, some silt, negligible clay, and zero organic
matter. I don't need to add any more sand. I do need organic matter
by the truckload.


i always offer to trade people who have too much
sand for clay, but so far nobody has taken up the
offer. bring buckets... adding organic matter
does help, but i'd add some clay too because it helps
the worms (night crawlers like it for their burrows)
and holds nutrients and moisture.


songbird

songbird wrote:
Una wrote:
Dan L wrote:
Are you saying sand+organic is better than organic alone as a soil
amendment?

Depends on the makeup of the soil already there.

My soil is mostly sand, some silt, negligible clay, and zero organic
matter. I don't need to add any more sand. I do need organic matter
by the truckload.


i always offer to trade people who have too much
sand for clay, but so far nobody has taken up the
offer. bring buckets... adding organic matter
does help, but i'd add some clay too because it helps
the worms (night crawlers like it for their burrows)
and holds nutrients and moisture.


songbird

On my clay soil, i tend just put grass seed on it. Then I go with raised
beds. However, I am always experimenting, I will try clay and sand with
compost and see how things work out. I am forever line trimming.

--
Enjoy Life... Nad R (Garden in zone 5a Michigan)

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Dan L wrote:
...
Why add sand?
I thought sand + clay = concrete.

when it dries too much yea, that's about
what happens if there is no organic matter
to keep it lightened up or if it is left
bare between crops. it's does a number on
the hands trying to weed or plant.


I believe organic material alone will help modify the soil.

the reconditioned area i did this past summer
had nothing added to the clay besides it being
killed off (to get rid of the sow thistle that
was taking over). then i tilled it a few inches
deep to give seedlings a chance to get roots
down in and to soak up the rain (instead of it
running off the compacted soil). oh and i took
the advantage of it being all dug up and leveled
it more to keep the water from running off
too quickly into the east ditch.

i seeded it with two legumes, alfalfa and
birdsfoot trefoil (in a spiral pattern). it
took a while to get going, the alfalfa has very
deep roots after several years and will help
break through that clay hardpan layer that
often develops. both were chosen for color,
and because they fix nitrogen. if they are
mowed they both come back low growing and
with some color, but so far we haven't had
to mow there.

this was left to grow (i only walked on a
certain pathway to avoid compacting the soil
again). this fall i had to move a rhubarb
plant and there was a spot along the edge of
this whole patch where i wanted to put the
rhubarb... that gave me a chance to check
out the depth of the roots from the alfalfa
and trefoil and to see how the soil was
doing. we hadn't had much rain late in the
summer, but this fall the rains have been
enough to keep it moist and the worms have
been going nuts as compared to how it used
to look. there were not very many worm signs
before. when i was digging there were plenty
of worms so i'm taking that as a good sign.
and the times when i've walked across it it
has been soft and squishy instead of like
walking on pavement. so from that i'd say
that tilling and staying off it while
replanting can be a good approach

Better IMHO is mulching instead of tilling. Mulching reduces run-off,
and a mulch like alfalfa (lucern) will feed the soil with both "C" and
"N", and no tilling will preserve the earthworms habitate (as opposed to
rototilling which turns them in to worm emulsion).
as long
as you don't need to run a mower over it or
walk on it when the seedlings are starting.

the alfalfa will take several years to get
the deep roots established. we'd tried an
alfalfa patch before for the purple flowers
but it was not left long enough to get
established before it was changed to another
garden. so this time we'll leave it for
a longer time period and see how this all
works out.

i may intercrop it next year with beans
to take advantage of the space and get some
return on the weeding.

i'm hoping this winter the deer will
bed down back there and eat that area up
instead of messing around in the other
garden they've been using that is much
closer to the house (about 20ft from
where i'm typing this from -- i'd like
to sleep instead of hearing them clomping
around at 4am).
Venison would be healthier than most of what you can buy in a store.


songbird

Talking about garden problems and approaches to fixing them are good for
the newsgroup, thanks.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

In article ,
Bill who putters wrote:

In article
,
Billy wrote:

I thought that the forests of north Africa met the same fate as the
forests of Britain (cut to make ships), however I don't seem to find a
supporting cite for that opinion.

I was told that much wood was cut to make charcoal. The charcoal was
then used in smelting iron. When I was about five I once saw a pile of
wood smoldering just north of Philadelphia. It was 50 yards high by
about 300 round.

http://www.historyofredding.com/HRforest.htm

Charcoal seems to be the current reason for loss of forest in northern
Africa now, as well as in Haiti.
--
- Billy
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE5wjc4XOw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Dan L wrote:
...
Why add sand?
I thought sand + clay = concrete.

when it dries too much yea, that's about
what happens if there is no organic matter
to keep it lightened up or if it is left
bare between crops. it's does a number on
the hands trying to weed or plant.


I believe organic material alone will help modify the soil.

the reconditioned area i did this past summer
had nothing added to the clay besides it being
killed off (to get rid of the sow thistle that
was taking over). then i tilled it a few inches
deep to give seedlings a chance to get roots
down in and to soak up the rain (instead of it
running off the compacted soil). oh and i took
the advantage of it being all dug up and leveled
it more to keep the water from running off
too quickly into the east ditch.

i seeded it with two legumes, alfalfa and
birdsfoot trefoil (in a spiral pattern). it
took a while to get going, the alfalfa has very
deep roots after several years and will help
break through that clay hardpan layer that
often develops. both were chosen for color,
and because they fix nitrogen. if they are
mowed they both come back low growing and
with some color, but so far we haven't had
to mow there.

this was left to grow (i only walked on a
certain pathway to avoid compacting the soil
again). this fall i had to move a rhubarb
plant and there was a spot along the edge of
this whole patch where i wanted to put the
rhubarb... that gave me a chance to check
out the depth of the roots from the alfalfa
and trefoil and to see how the soil was
doing. we hadn't had much rain late in the
summer, but this fall the rains have been
enough to keep it moist and the worms have
been going nuts as compared to how it used
to look. there were not very many worm signs
before. when i was digging there were plenty
of worms so i'm taking that as a good sign.
and the times when i've walked across it it
has been soft and squishy instead of like
walking on pavement. so from that i'd say
that tilling and staying off it while
replanting can be a good approach

Better IMHO is mulching instead of tilling. Mulching reduces run-off,
and a mulch like alfalfa (lucern) will feed the soil with both "C" and
"N", and no tilling will preserve the earthworms habitate (as opposed to
rototilling which turns them in to worm emulsion).

we don't have the many cubic yards of mulch it would
have taken to recondition that entire area. instead i
took the approach i did because there weren't that many
worms to begin with in that part of the soil (the top
few inches of dry hard-pan clay) and it really needed
to be softened up so that seedling roots could get
established (before the frosts came). for smaller areas
mulching is much easier i would agree. oh, and i did
need to level it, tilling helped move a few cubic
yards eastwards.


as long
as you don't need to run a mower over it or
walk on it when the seedlings are starting.

the alfalfa will take several years to get
the deep roots established. we'd tried an
alfalfa patch before for the purple flowers
but it was not left long enough to get
established before it was changed to another
garden. so this time we'll leave it for
a longer time period and see how this all
works out.

i may intercrop it next year with beans
to take advantage of the space and get some
return on the weeding.

i'm hoping this winter the deer will
bed down back there and eat that area up
instead of messing around in the other
garden they've been using that is much
closer to the house (about 20ft from
where i'm typing this from -- i'd like
to sleep instead of hearing them clomping
around at 4am).


Venison would be healthier than most of what you can buy in a store.

the hunters have been booming all around us, but
we still see many running during the day now (groups
of six or more).


Talking about garden problems and approaches to fixing them are good for
the newsgroup, thanks.




songbird

I am slowly restoring the badly damaged soil on two small parcels of
land. Both are on slopes and I am also gradually terracing them.
Terracing is not a natural condition, but most people would consider
it an improvement on the original.

Couple of things I've observed. Purslane loves nitrogen and sucks ths
soil dry. Cheatgrasses do not like too much nitrogen. Some of the
major weeds of disturbed soils do the soil rather a lot of good. Two
examples are Kochia and redroot pigweed. Both are annuals that grow
deep taproots.

Starting out, there was zero organic matter hence absolutely no worms.
Compaction was significant, and rain water mostly ran off. The soil
is still far from heathy but the patches where I began are far better
now. They grow grass, all kinds of grass. I pull up clumps of grass
and transplant the clumps into other spots where I have previously
mulched heavily with horse manure. A few years ago I started pulling
all mustard weeds, just so that none managed to set seed. Then there
were no mustards so I started pulling pigweed ditto. This year there
was nearly no pigweed so I started pulling kochia. What is left? An
increasingly varied abundance of native perennial wildflowers (mallows
and asters, mostly) and grasses. I have started digging wildflowers
and distributing them to gardening friends, leaving the grasses to
fill in the holes. Next summer I expect I will be pulling kochia
again, and purslane, and then I'll be done with weeding that parcel!
I won't worry about the cheatgrasses; they won't be able to compete
with the perennial grasses that are coming in now.

Una

"Una" wrote in message ...
I am slowly restoring the badly damaged soil on two small parcels of
land. Both are on slopes and I am also gradually terracing them.
Terracing is not a natural condition, but most people would consider
it an improvement on the original.

Couple of things I've observed. Purslane loves nitrogen and sucks ths
soil dry. Cheatgrasses do not like too much nitrogen. Some of the
major weeds of disturbed soils do the soil rather a lot of good. Two
examples are Kochia and redroot pigweed. Both are annuals that grow
deep taproots.

"Google" a photo to be sure, but around here red root pigweed is wild
amaranth. The leaves are edible like spinach and in the fall the grain is
very healthy. I always leave one or two in the garden.
Steve

Starting out, there was zero organic matter hence absolutely no worms.
Compaction was significant, and rain water mostly ran off. The soil
is still far from heathy but the patches where I began are far better
now. They grow grass, all kinds of grass. I pull up clumps of grass
and transplant the clumps into other spots where I have previously
mulched heavily with horse manure. A few years ago I started pulling
all mustard weeds, just so that none managed to set seed. Then there
were no mustards so I started pulling pigweed ditto. This year there
was nearly no pigweed so I started pulling kochia. What is left? An
increasingly varied abundance of native perennial wildflowers (mallows
and asters, mostly) and grasses. I have started digging wildflowers
and distributing them to gardening friends, leaving the grasses to
fill in the holes. Next summer I expect I will be pulling kochia
again, and purslane, and then I'll be done with weeding that parcel!
I won't worry about the cheatgrasses; they won't be able to compete
with the perennial grasses that are coming in now.

Una

Steve Peek wrote:
"Google" a photo to be sure, but around here red root pigweed is wild
amaranth. The leaves are edible like spinach and in the fall the grain is
very healthy. I always leave one or two in the garden.

Yes, it is edible, even fairly tasty when young and tender. However,
like rhubarb leaves pigweed has oxalate crystals and I don't want much
oxalate in my diet. Also, this pigweed accumulates nitrates, which I
also don't want to eat much of, and in light of the fact I am adding
so much manure to the soil the available nitrates are likely to be high.

Purslane is edible too, and tastier than pigweed. So are the mustards.

Una

In article , (Una) wrote:

Steve Peek wrote:
"Google" a photo to be sure, but around here red root pigweed is wild
amaranth. The leaves are edible like spinach and in the fall the grain is
very healthy. I always leave one or two in the garden.

Yes, it is edible, even fairly tasty when young and tender. However,
like rhubarb leaves pigweed has oxalate crystals and I don't want much
oxalate in my diet. Also, this pigweed accumulates nitrates, which I
also don't want to eat much of, and in light of the fact I am adding
so much manure to the soil the available nitrates are likely to be high.

Purslane is edible too, and tastier than pigweed. So are the mustards.

Una

Purslane is the plant with highest omega 3 I believe.

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

Daniel Moynihan and Dennis Kucinich in 2012 !